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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: intrptr
Yes, the Jews who were listening to him took him over-literally, too.
The fact that he said it at all suggests that he did not mean physical death, and I suggested one possible explanation.
So I agree with you that he was talking about "the second death"; that is, the spiritual death which ends spiritual life.
He obviously can't have been talking about physical death, because there is no question that everybody dies.
Yes, Jesus was in a body, but it was apparently not quite the same kind of body. For one thing, it was able to appear instantly in the room with the disciples.
Then we can turn to 1 Corinthians ch15
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
originally posted by: windword
I think the Gospels' narrative clearly shows that it was the same body.....the empty tomb, the wounds and the need to eat meat and honey comb.
Paul seems to say, in 1 Corinthians ch15, that Jesus is a celestial being, not a physical human man/person, but a being made of something different than us.
What scriptures is Paul talking about? Not the Gospels!
The implication is that Jesus offers life, spiritual rather than physical, which begins even now, while we are still in physical bodies.
Or again; "He who believes in me, though he die [physically], yet shall he live [spiritually]"; ch11 v25
But the idea of "continuity" is included in Paul's metaphor of the seed, where his point is that the seed is buried in one form and comes up again in a different form. "What you sow is not the body which is to be... but God gives it a body as he has chosen".
It is a transformation, but a transformation with an element of continuity.
He predicts an instantaneous transformation of the same kind for those who are alive in the world when Christ returns.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
When Paul says "scriptures", he normally means the Old Testament.
He would have found both "died for our sins" and "raised on the third day" in Old Testament prophecy.
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit
The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
originally posted by: windword
But, Paul misses or ignores the message of resurrection in the Gospels, completely...
Paul claims that the saints aren't dead, they're asleep!
Paul's Christ doesn't seem to be Jesus of Nazareth at all, in this chapter.
Where would WE find those prophecies?
Why did Paul get Jesus' appearance after the resurrection wrong? Jesus, according to the Gospels, appears first to Mary Magdalene, then to a group of disciples, but not all of them.
Seems to me that Paul is referring to a celestial being who appears at will, not a flesh and blood man, born of a virgin and died an earthly death, according to the gospels.
Jesus never suggested that our souls are gestating within our earthly body, ready to spring up as an other worldly body from within us, something like a moth climbing out of it's cocoon, upon the sounding of the last trumpet, as Paul suggests.
We ARE spiritual beings have a physical experience. When we shed our physical bodies, only the spiritual is left.
Paul seems to think that Christ gives birth to the spirit.