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Truly, truly; He will never see death

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posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:03 PM
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“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death” –John ch8 v51

Jesus was fond of using the phrase “Truly I say to you”, but this “double” version, with the repeated AMEN, is found only in John’s gospel.
He seems to use it to mark the statements which he wants people to remember.

This discourse in the eighth chapter presents three of them in quick succession, underlining its importance.
The background is that Jesus was in Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles.
He had been speaking to different groups of people, with the result that “many believed in him” (v30). That is, they placed their trust upon him.
He now turned to address the Jews who “believed him”. That is, they accepted what he told them, but they were not yet taking that further step of believing in him, a distinction which is very important in John’s gospel.

He wants to encourage them to persevere.
If they continue “in my word”, they will be true disciples of Jesus.
“You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free” (v32).

Their first reaction to this promise is to question the implication that they are not free already.
They are the seed of Abraham, and as such they “have never been in bondage to anyone”.
Obviously this is not referring to their political circumstances, as a nation.
They may have been thinking of those passages in the Law (e.g. Leviticus ch25) which deplore the enslavement of Jews by their own people, encouraging them to acquire slaves from other nations instead.

So Jesus explains in what sense they are not free;
“Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin” (v34).
That is, “committing sin” as a way of life.
As slaves, they have no status in the household, and no security.
However, the Son (namely Jesus himself) remains in the house “for ever”, and can raise them to the same privilege.
“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed”.
Thus he identifies freedom from sin as the most important kind of freedom there is.

But they are not likely to accept this offer.
The problem is that “my word finds no place in you”.
He gets his testimony direct from God, and their minds are closed to what comes from God.
“I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father” (v38).
They will have found this enigmatic. The explanatory words “my” and “your” are absent from many manuscripts, and certainly absent from the standardised modern version of the Greek text.
Not knowing what he is talking about, they repeat the claim that their father is Abraham.
Jesus doubts this, because their hostility to him is very unlike Abraham.
“This is not what Abraham did. You do what your father did” (vv40-41).

Now that he has definitely added “your” father, they grasp that he is accusing them of having a father other than his own.
Having understood the charge, they deny it, emphatically. They are not “born of fornication” (in other words, they have not been hankering after other gods).
“We have one father, even God”.
Jesus challenges this claim too.
If they were truly from God, they would feel kinship with someone sent out from God himself and following his will, and they would love him.
Their true father is the devil.
The devil has been a murderer “from the beginning” and the father of lies, making him the exact opposite of the source of Life and Truth.
This affinity with the devil means that they can only accept and understand lies. Therefore they do not believe Jesus precisely because he tells them the truth.
“He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God” (v47).

The Jews have no answer to this.
They respond with a counter-accusation; “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” (And these are supposed to be the Jews who had believed him?)
Jesus dismisses that briefly and then returns to his original theme, which is the importance of hearing his word.
“Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death” (v51).
This follows on from the first promise, to free them from slavery to sin. For sin is the root cause of death.
“Seeing” means “experiencing”, as in the promise to Nicodemus about “seeing” the kingdom of God.
And of course he is talking about spiritual death, the “second death” mentioned in Revelation (ch2 v11).

As usual, the Jews take this promise very literally, and assume that he’s talking about physical death.
In that case, it seems absurd. Everybody experiences physical death.
Abraham and the prophets could not even escape death themselves.
He is offering something which Abraham could not offer, so is he claiming to be greater than Abraham?
The answer is that Abraham himself was able to know and take advantage of the same offer;
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad” (v56).

He “saw” it, that is, with the eye of faith. And perhaps he has already “experienced” it in renewed life.
Once again, the Jews understand the statement in the most literal way.
If Abraham saw Jesus, that must mean he and Abraham were living at the same time.
Naturally they doubt this.
“You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
(This is not telling us that Jesus looked more than forty years old. The point is that even the round number of fifty years does not compare with the interval since Abraham’s time.)

Jesus does not try to put them straight.
Instead, he takes up the challenge. “As old as Abraham? I’m older!”
“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (v58).
This prompts them to take up stones to throw at him, because they understand exactly what he means.
He has identified himself with the Creator God, the source of Life. This is the same claim that is made on his behalf in the opening words of the gospel.
Only on that basis can he fulfil the promises he’s been making about the effect of his word, that it will free them from slavery to sin and save them from death.




posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:03 PM
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The same contrast between the insecurity of the slave and the secure status of the sons of the household, depending on the one Son, is also used by Paul;
“I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave…
When we were children we were slaves to the elements of the universe…
But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his S
on… so that we might receive adoption as sons…
And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts…
So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir” (Galatians ch2 vv1-7)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death” –

Never see death?

Everyone is born and everyone dies.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:14 PM
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Galatians 3 is the guardian, or trusted relative who trains the sons as slaves of the father that owns the land. Once the sons know the harvest, they then inherit the land. In this sense, the EGO (Yahweh) is the guardian of each person. Satan is the conscience, or accuser. The law is between the ego to rule and the conscience that accuses the Son of God of his wrongdoing. Christ overcame both.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There can be no law against those who love. Love cannot sin against another person. This is how we overcome Yahweh (ego) and his Accuser (Satan / Conscience). Satan is silenced.

Zacheriah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua [Yeshua], the chief priest, standing in front of the Messenger of Yahweh. Satan the Accuser was standing at Joshua’s right side to accuse him. 2 Yahweh said to Satan, “I, Yahweh, silence you, Satan! I, Yahweh, who has chosen Jerusalem, silence you! Isn’t this man like a burning log snatched from a fire?”

Before Joshua became Jesus, he had to be robed and crowned. No sin was possible apart from the Ego and Conscience being present. This shows clearly how we cannot do this ourselves. Yahweh prepared his own host for possession. By this, he also paid his own sin debt. Humanity never had a sin debt. Yahweh caused the fall, divided man's image (both male and female) and made Satan. Apart from the actions of Yahweh, man could never have fallen. It was never our debt or burden. Overcoming the law is seeing it for what it is. False. Only love is true. Given knowledge of God, we could not sin. We were blinded and deceived from the beginning, taken captive by the one who rules by deception. This deception was for our ultimate benefit. We must be clothed with knowledge to overcome the one who was already clothed (Satan).

The trickster's hoax.


edit on bAmerica/Chicago3150000005 by BetNun because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:15 PM
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a reply to: intrptr
Yes, the Jews who were listening to him took him over-literally, too.
The fact that he said it at all suggests that he did not mean physical death, and I suggested one possible explanation.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: intrptr
Yes, the Jews who were listening to him took him over-literally, too.
The fact that he said it at all suggests that he did not mean physical death, and I suggested one possible explanation.

He surely meant physical death but I think he war referring to the Second one, thoughts?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:24 PM
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a reply to: intrptr
He obviously can't have been talking about physical death, because there is no question that everybody dies.
So I agree with you that he was talking about "the second death"; that is, the spiritual death which ends spiritual life.

I take it that the eternal life he was promising was spiritual life rather than physical life.
1 Corinthians ch15 makes the same distinction.



edit on 22-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI
Is there really any question that Jesus was talking about spiritual eternity and not about physical immortality?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: bb23108
I think he is talking about the same thing that Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians ch15.
That is, life not in the same form that we have now, but a new kind of body.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


So I agree with you that he was talking about "the second death"; that is, the spiritual death which ends spiritual life.

Not sure how you are seeing this…

Just to clarify, I think it means the death of the soul that some will experience after our body here dies.

I.E., the second death.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:44 PM
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a reply to: intrptr
Yes, I think we're talking about the same thing.
What he means becomes more clear when taken in conjunction with other statements in the same gospel.
E.g., "He who hears my word and believes in me HAS eternal life... those who hear will live" -ch5 v24
The implication is that Jesus offers life, spiritual rather than physical, which begins even now, while we are still in physical bodies.
THAT is the life which will not come to an end, even when physical life comes to an end.
Or again; "He who believes in me, though he die [physically], yet shall he live [spiritually]"; ch11 v25




edit on 22-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI




He obviously can't have been talking about physical death, because there is no question that everybody dies.


If that is true, then what was the significance of Jesus raising the dead, the dead that rose from their graves the day of the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus himself in the physical body, 3 days later? The Bible tells us that Jesus rose in his physical body, and not just in spirit, by showing us the empty tomb, by telling us that Jesus allowed Thomas to feel his crucifixion wounds and in that he ate meat and honey comb.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 06:29 PM
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a reply to: windword
My point was that a promise which meant "He shall not experience physical death" would have to be counted as unfulfilled, because in practice everybody since that time has experienced physical death.

I agree that the resurrection of Jesus was not just "spirit", but that or a new physical body are not the only options.
Yes, Jesus was in a body, but it was apparently not quite the same kind of body. For one thing, it was able to appear instantly in the room with the disciples.
Then we can turn to 1 Corinthians ch15, which I've already recommended a couple of times in this thread, and see Paul's explanation that the resurrection will bring us a different kind of body, one which is PNEUMATIKOS (from PNEUMA, or "Spirit"), rather than PSYCHIKOS.
He also says that those of us who happen to be alive at the time of the "last trump" will be transformed, from one kind of body to the other; "We shall not all die, but we will all be changed".
The implication is that this is exactly what happened in the case of the resurrection of Jesus.




edit on 22-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:01 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI




Yes, Jesus was in a body, but it was apparently not quite the same kind of body. For one thing, it was able to appear instantly in the room with the disciples.


Do you mean that Jesus never had a normal human body? Jesus did magical things while he was alive too. He "passed right through them" when they tried to throw him off a cliff. He appeared on the other side of the lake after magically multiplying fish and loaves and walking on water. All things that no human should be able to do. I think the Gospels' narrative clearly shows that his resurrected body was the same body.....the empty tomb, the wounds and the need to eat meat and honey comb.



Then we can turn to 1 Corinthians ch15


You switch from the words of the Jesus, through the Gospel of John, where you want us to take these writings literally, to Paul who never met Jesus in the flesh, and seems to say, in 1 Corinthians ch15, that Jesus is a celestial being, not a physical human man/person, but a being made of something different than us.


But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory


It doesn't seem to me that Paul is talking about a terrestrial Jesus at all.


For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures


What scriptures is Paul talking about? Not the Gospels!

edit on 22-5-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:26 PM
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originally posted by: windword
I think the Gospels' narrative clearly shows that it was the same body.....the empty tomb, the wounds and the need to eat meat and honey comb.

Yes, the empty tomb shows continuity between the bodies of the buried Jesus and the resurrected Jesus.
But the idea of "continuity" is included in Paul's metaphor of the seed, where his point is that the seed is buried in one form and comes up again in a different form. "What you sow is not the body which is to be... but God gives it a body as he has chosen".
It is a transformation, but a transformation with an element of continuity.
He predicts an instantaneous transformation of the same kind for those who are alive in the world when Christ returns.
Given that explanation, it is reasonable to suppose that the resurrection of Jesus himself was consistent with it. Transformation with an element of continuity.
The wounds are another aspect of the continuity.
The "transformed" body was evidently still tangible; that is indicated by the invitation to Thomas and by the fact that he could take in food.
I don't think it shows, though, that he needed to take in physical food. He explains in ch6 that physical food does nothing to sustain spiritual life, which is maintained in other ways.


Paul seems to say, in 1 Corinthians ch15, that Jesus is a celestial being, not a physical human man/person, but a being made of something different than us.

No, the passages you quote there are not about the difference between Jesus and us.
They are about the difference between the body we have now and the body we will have in the resurrection.
He is providing the answer to the question "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" (v35)
The comment about "terrestrial bodies and celestial bodies" is just a parenthesis showing that different kinds of bodies are possible. Animals have one kind of body, stars have another, so there is no reason for them to doubt his statement that the resurrection body will also be a different kind of body.


What scriptures is Paul talking about? Not the Gospels!

When Paul says "scriptures", he normally means the Old Testament.
He would have found both "died for our sins" and "raised on the third day" in Old Testament prophecy.


edit on 22-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 10:24 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


The implication is that Jesus offers life, spiritual rather than physical, which begins even now, while we are still in physical bodies.

Okay, but we'll see who makes it and who doesn't, nobody knows until we get there… over there.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth might be because some that thought they were "saved" already, aren't.


Or again; "He who believes in me, though he die [physically], yet shall he live [spiritually]"; ch11 v25

The second death is the end of life. The first one isn't the end yet. We are alive when we are born and alive after we die. Our soul is the real us. Don't add to the scripture…

it simply says even if you die here you won't die there, depending…

ETA: Simply believing this won't change anything. We have lots of little choices over a life time, all adding up to a sum total that will be determined or reckoned, one day.
edit on 22-5-2015 by intrptr because: ETA:



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 11:32 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI




But the idea of "continuity" is included in Paul's metaphor of the seed, where his point is that the seed is buried in one form and comes up again in a different form. "What you sow is not the body which is to be... but God gives it a body as he has chosen".
It is a transformation, but a transformation with an element of continuity.
He predicts an instantaneous transformation of the same kind for those who are alive in the world when Christ returns.


Your using Paul to make sense of something that Jesus said, that you can't make sense of. But, Paul misses or ignores the message of resurrection in the Gospels, completely.


For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.


Paul claims that the saints aren't dead, they're asleep!


"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.


Paul claims that Christ is risen as the first fruit of all that died before, and that the saints who now belong to Christ will resurrect when Christ comes. In Paul's mind, Christ had not yet come, and many saints were still asleep. The saints, according to Paul, are in a coma, waiting.....


But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.


Paul's Christ doesn't seem to be Jesus of Nazareth at all, in this chapter.



When Paul says "scriptures", he normally means the Old Testament.
He would have found both "died for our sins" and "raised on the third day" in Old Testament prophecy.


Where would WE find those prophecies?

What in world did Paul mean by this?


Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?


Why did Paul get Jesus' appearance after the resurrection wrong? Jesus, according to the Gospels, appears first to Mary Magdalene, then to a group of disciples, but not all of them.


For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.


Seems to me that Paul is referring to a celestial being who appears at will, not a flesh and blood man, born of a virgin and died an earthly death, according to the gospels.

Jesus never suggested that our souls are gestating within our earthly body, ready to spring up as an other worldly body from within us, something like a moth climbing out of it's cocoon, upon the sounding of the last trumpet, as Paul suggests.

Jesus said it simply:

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.


We ARE spiritual beings have a physical experience. When we shed our physical bodies, only the spiritual is left.


The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit


Paul seems to think that Christ gives birth to the spirit.


The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit


But Jesus said:

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Such it is with everyone born of the spirit........

Paul's model is completely different than Jesus' model of the spirit and eternal life, in my opinion.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 03:18 AM
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originally posted by: windword
But, Paul misses or ignores the message of resurrection in the Gospels, completely...
Paul claims that the saints aren't dead, they're asleep!

Paul, and perhaps the community of his time, are using the word "sleep" to convey their confident faith that those believers who have died are not "finally" dead.
I don't see any contradictions here.


Paul's Christ doesn't seem to be Jesus of Nazareth at all, in this chapter.

I don't see where you get that from.
The statement that Christ has already been raised from the dead has to be a reference to Jesus of Nazareth.
The expectation that Christ will "return" to us and bring a general resurrection matches what is said in this gospel;
"The hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement" (ch5 v25).
You are looking for differences which are not there.



Where would WE find those prophecies?

He would have found "rising on the third day" in the same place that the church has always found it since his time; Hosea ch6 v2. They also found it implied in what happened to Jonah.
We can find in his letters a range of prophecies which he understands as meaning both "he will die" and "he will die for our sins", but getting into that theme would be taking us beyond our topic, which is the promise of life beyond physical death.


Why did Paul get Jesus' appearance after the resurrection wrong? Jesus, according to the Gospels, appears first to Mary Magdalene, then to a group of disciples, but not all of them.

Where do any of the gospels claim to be listing every single appearance of the resurrected Jesus?


Seems to me that Paul is referring to a celestial being who appears at will, not a flesh and blood man, born of a virgin and died an earthly death, according to the gospels.

No. He describes Jesus as "raised from the dead", which automatically identifies him as somebody who had a flesh and blood body which experienced an earthly death.
Think about it, do. Nobody can be raised from the dead without having died first.
But that chapter is obviously focussed on Jesus after his resurrection from the dead, and his body then differs from flesh-and-blood bodies in the same way that our own resurrected bodies will differ from flesh-and-blood bodies. "I tell you this, brethren; flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (v50).
As for "appearing at will", that is exactly what all the gospels relate about the resurrected Jesus. No contradiction there, either, between Paul and the gospels in general.


Jesus never suggested that our souls are gestating within our earthly body, ready to spring up as an other worldly body from within us, something like a moth climbing out of it's cocoon, upon the sounding of the last trumpet, as Paul suggests.

Neither Jesus nor Paul suggest that eternal life relates to the soul.
In this gospel, Jesus talks of new life as the consequence of being "born anew" through the Holy Spirit.
Similarly, Paul describes the resurrected body as PNEUMATIKOS- that is "belonging to the Spirit".
They are talking about the same thing.


We ARE spiritual beings have a physical experience. When we shed our physical bodies, only the spiritual is left.

As far as John's gospel is concerned, there is a distinction.
The spiritual life is restricted to those who hear and believe the word of Jesus, and are consequently "born anew through the Holy Spirit", as he explains to Nicodemus.
The limitation to "those who hear and believe" is even there in the verse you quoted from ch5, though you carefully ignored it.
So it is not legitimate to extend the promise of spiritual life to "we" in general, as though it applied to everybody, naturally. That is not what the gospel says.


Paul seems to think that Christ gives birth to the spirit.

Yes, and John's gospel says that Christ sends the Holy Spirit. As in the case of all these silly quibbles which you are finding, they are slightly different ways of saying the same thing.


edit on 23-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 03:29 AM
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a reply to: intrptr
Explaining what the words of scripture mean is not adding to them.
I will just make this observation; All the way through this gospel, Jesus claims to be offering a new life, an eternal life, which is ONLY available to those who "hear and believe my word". In other words, it is not something which is inbuilt at birth.




edit on 23-5-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:32 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


which is ONLY available to those who "hear and believe my word"

You can believe anything you like, what matters is how we behave toward others.







 
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