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The Conservative "Meritocracy" Paradise As It Recently Existed

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posted on May, 24 2015 @ 02:57 AM
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a reply to: Hefficide

my mom was a dyed in the wool democrat. she was only 4ft 11 inches tall and wore a size 4 and a half shoe. and she was a fundie christian, and when i say fundie, i mean fundie. anyway, she was working at a non-union factory when she was in her 50's, where they packaged things like the old pregnancy tests. the employees were mostly women. the supervisor was a womanizer. when he saw a female employee he fancied, he'd go after her and if she didn't respond favorably to his advances, he would fire her. this happened repeatedly till one day several of the ladies were talking about it at lunch and mom decided it was time for an union there. yep that lil old lady, that dinky fundie christian, brought an union into that factory (one of the bosses tried to run her over with the tractor while he was trying to cross the picket line. not nice people in that place).

so not every union was money-based. some of it was just cause the bosses would get carried away with their power over their employees.
edit on 24-5-2015 by undo because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 24 2015 @ 03:32 AM
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originally posted by: LDragonFire

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: undo

That's a whole other ball of wax, but the system cannot prop itself up forever.



Not when the wealthy pays so little in taxes and industry not only doesn't pay taxes but gets untold millions in subsidies.

Why not go after the ones that have paid off the government pays little or nothing into the system yet also benefits the most from it?




Wiping whatever clouds the eyes and mind away what some see is a middle class labor and tax slave while the poor and the corps get welfare.

And the flow, the hemorrhaging of money flowing around out there......wow. An example.....free school lunches.....in many places they don't even bother to see if a kid really qualifies for free lunch they give it to them anyway.....not to mention the qualifying criteria, income ceiling is much higher than it needs to be.....way higher. These days for every kid that may need a free meal at school about 3 are getting one because the incomes are not checked, way over any reasonable idea of need. Why? Greed all the way around. Parents, school and government, food suppliers ect.

Its not just the military and their 300$ hammers. Its Jack and Jill's free school lunch program. The price tag on those meals would stager the mind after all hands in the pie are accounted for.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 03:52 AM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

We disagree from time to time
...

But I have to say, if I can't afford to feed my family...maybe I should have thought twice about having more/any kids at all?

I mean, if I find it hard to get by on my own, what makes me think it's OK to bring a child into the world?



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 04:04 AM
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I heard a story recently that explains conservatives very well.

So bob was late for work one morning and couldn't find his keys. He looked all over, except for where the keys were. He cursed god. He cursed satan. He cursed sand fleas. He remembered that his keys were made of metal. Bob began looking for his keys in the bathroom because he thought maybe they fell out when he took a shower. Well, wouldn't you know it his keys where sitting right on the floor under the toilet, covered in urine.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 05:30 AM
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Some of the attitudes displayed in this thread sound like the 19th century aristicrats of Great Britain during the industrial revolution, where poverty was seen as a disease and the poor a plague on society. Maybe bringing back the Dickensian workhouses would sort the problems of the poor out. Read Oliver Twist for reference. MORE... YOU WANT MORE.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 08:01 AM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: burdman30ott6

We disagree from time to time
...

But I have to say, if I can't afford to feed my family...maybe I should have thought twice about having more/any kids at all?

I mean, if I find it hard to get by on my own, what makes me think it's OK to bring a child into the world?


Why not stop breathing to avoid being poisoned by pollution? Try to avoid hormones or any other natural cue that drives a species to procreate based on economic factors. Explain to a mammal species that going into heat should be governed by a man made economic system and see how much success you have. No one volunteers to be born into our man made economic reality and clearly not all humans are born with the tools to succeed in it as well. To expect everyone to conform to your morality or values is very short sided, when we are born with the instinct to eat drink and multiply.

The dollar is a powerful force there is no doubt but is nothing compared to the instinctive drive to mate, to me your argument is lame.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 08:31 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

When you consider the amount of weapon systems we have and the cost of each weapon system, we could eliminate one of these systems and eliminate homelessness and include job training for each family easily.

How do you know about the school lunch program? Can you prove school lunch programs just give every student free lunches? From my understanding and experience schools send free lunch forms home to be filled out by the family if they are on food stamps they get free lunches if they make under a certain amount they get free lunches, but the schools have a budget and the paperwork has to match up or they will have a problem.

I think your not being truthful in your statements and I bet you can't prove what your talking about. All government welfare must be applied too and evidence provided that you qualify for a program, all have to be re-certified every 6 months.

I don't trust conservative with education or foreign policy or welfare. Every single republican governor I have seen elected one of there first acts is to cut education budgets so this could explain why we as a nation now ranked #28. So refusing to invest in our future has destroyed any chance of rising back to the top in the world.

I have no problem feeding kids when there is a direct link with nutrition and education, you have to invest before you can see a return.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom



I was using the lottery in a metaphorical context. I have no idea where you are trying to go?

Lotteries are part of state revenue collection. Most states use the money for public education. So lotteries are part of the tax system. Statistically, low income people buy lottery tickets. So public education is paid for by the lower income people, who can least afford it.

I should also point out tobacco tax. So a smoker buys a pack of smokes for $8.00 say. 50 cents goes to tobacco company. The other $7.50 goes to federal and state tax. And then the sales tax is based upon the whole $8.00. That's 9% tax on the $7.50 tax. So smokers are paying tax on their tax. (the actual numbers are different from state to state )

Then on top of that anti-tobacco crowd teams up with the anti-tax crowd to make any additional state revenue needed gets added as tobacco tax. Eventually the last smoker in the state will have funded the entire state budget. What the hell happens when the last smoker dies? Atlas Shrugging indeed!



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 02:28 PM
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a reply to: pthena

Not only that, but most of the food stores they had were either depleted or spoiled and they lost most of their food when their flag ship Sea Venture sank.
They had to resort to cannibalism.
LINK
LINK2

They also stole corn belonging to the Indians in the area and dug up their graves to eat them, which caused some fighting.
SOURCE

Sorry if this is off-topic, Heff.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 02:42 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide

That's true. Not to mention that the work was often dangerous, as there were no laws guaranteeing job safety. Many were killed in making the rail roads (mostly Irish and Chinese) and more were killed in mine accidents. While we're on the subject of work-place deaths, let's not forget the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire where 146 workers died.
Link

As for the company store, that's also true. Workers were unable to buy from anyone else but the company store. If you've heard the Tennessee Ernie Ford song 16 Tons, you know about the line that goes: "St. Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go. I owe my soul to the company store".




posted on May, 24 2015 @ 02:46 PM
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originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: pthena

History books actually leave out a lot about the first Jamestown expedition due to ugly light it portrays First Peoples in. One of the big "mysteries" is what happened to many of the colonists - even though local Aboriginal culture is very clear that those poor souls were taken away from the coast and welcomed as members of local tribes.

Years later explorers were dumbfounded upon meeting blue eyed Natives and have been debating for years over how that could be. The simple answer is that these were the descendants of those who disappeared from Jamestown. This is bolstered by the fact that blue eyes are a genetic trait not found in the America's.

But history is written by the victors, so it's all left out.



Do you mean the Roanoke Colony, also known as the Lost Colony?
Roanoke Colony



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 04:12 PM
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a reply to: Skid Mark


Sorry if this is off-topic, Heff.

I'm not Heff, but it is on topic because people still suffer under the delusion that Jamestown's beginnings were a bust because they "just weren't capitalist enough". This reveals that politico/economic ideology didn't really factor in.

So those arguments are spurious when checked by fact. Even the greatest of robber barons, if he found himself in Jamestown may have simply died and been eaten.

edit on 24-5-2015 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: pthena

Lol I know you're not Heff. Sorry. That was meant as a side note to Heff.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 05:38 PM
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originally posted by: undo
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE




BY NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN...you find yourself in a bad situation.


all of that can be chalked up to medical problems. i'm not kidding. poverty breeds emotional / mental problems. always having to be in survival mode, breeds emotional / mental problems. living in a war zone, 24 hours a day, for generations, breeds emotional/mental problems. i was watching a documentary about the state of society in large cities and in one case a black mother lost all 4 of her children in like one month, to inner city violence/drive by shootings.

Oh...don't get me wrong. I'm sure many, many people are mentally ill from dealing with what they have allowed their life to become. And yes, some where it wasn't their doing. But unless you are considering wiping the bad city streets clean of these people, I'm not sure where you are going with your observation.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 05:39 PM
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originally posted by: undo
HERE'S THE ACTUAL PROBLEM:

they are using the poor's plight to extract large amounts of taxes from the people who work. then they skim huge sums of that money that was meant for the poor, to instead build bases all over the world and buy out their governments so they can then plant a central bank on their soil. then when the workers complain, they tell the poor that the workers don't want to help them.

that's it. whole problem in a nutshell.

Ok...gotcha. And you aren't wrong. But that is only one little part of the problem.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 05:42 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: ketsuko

Why not?

If we are to be honest, all involved in this thread have been involved in countless others that address similar issues. We have all seen the charts showing that the top Corporations pay nothing in taxes - particularly oil companies. In fact many of the most profitable companies in the US not only enjoy tax free status - due to pandering, loopholes, etc.. but they also receive massive amounts of money in grants and perks from the Government.

I used to belabor that point endlessly but lost interest in doing so during the "job creator" era that came after Romney coined ( or made popular ) the phrase and introduced that misconception into our collective lexicon.

How many of us remember Warren Buffet off handedly bragging/complaining that his personal secretary paid more in taxes than he did and pointing out the absurdity of that reality?

This brings us back to the root cause of these problems - and, again, it is not the poor - working or otherwise. It's Oligarchy. It's the fact that a very small minority of the extremely wealthy enjoy political carte blanche in our political system - openly and freely buying laws and law makers and we, as a society, are not doing anything about it.

If those making the real $$$ - not the middle class or even upper middle class - but huge Corporate entities and the eight million, or so, multi-million and billionaires were paying their fair share, just as everyone else does? And the social service system were run with integrity and oversight - without Congress pillaging the funds for whatever war or off-the-books black ops happen to be tempting at any given time? We'd have surplus enough to take care of all of these social issues.

Our society has been duped. "Free", in terms of a market, does not mean "without any regulation, oversight, or consequence". Even in the Code of Hammurabi - the most ancient codification of laws that I am aware of off-hand - there is a section about businessmen and slave owners and the penalties facing them if they abuse their status or underlings.

A "free" market is one where no single party is given preferential treatment or undo advantage. And that we most certainly do NOT have today. Another poster said, more than once, "open your own company then" and I neglected to reply... but the reason that most people do not is simple. Unless you are a niche business, Wal Mart is going to eat you alive - and they are going to do so with advantages you do not have. Bulk buying power, tariff breaks, a work force that is essentially enslaved due to lack of opportunity elsewhere ( once Wal Mart comes to town, mom and pop don't stand a chance ).

The counter argument to that is usually "Well then those Wally world employees should go to college and get PhD's so they can make the big bucks". That opens tons of other cans of worms. From Doctors who currently are up in arms over the fact that, thanks to interest, they cannot afford to repay their student loans all the way down to a much more basic reality - we need a base to the pyramid. So much hatred towards "burger flippers" these days and yet the truth is that without burger flippers, shelf-stockers, clerks, cashiers, waitresses and waiters, etc.... we have no commerce. We have no industry. The bottom level is the basis that all else is built upon.




OK, first off, you need tax reform. You cannot just keep raising the tax rates. If the corps are getting out of them now, they'll be getting out of them then and the only ones to suffer will be the rest of us. Guess who didn't pay taxes before Obama raised the rates on them? The big corps. Guess what Obama's argument for raising taxes was? Those corps will pay their fair share. Guess who's still not paying? Those same corps.

So I ask, what is my fair share because the only counter to the arguments you post is "raise taxes! raise taxes! raise taxes!" If it didn't work before, it won't work now. The only thing you do is take more money out of my pocket. We're already over 40% when all liabilities are taken into account, and that's without the hidden taxes on everything.

A free market is what we do not have. I can agree that there needs to be some regulation, but anyone who knows anything about games where rules function like laws knows that the more rules you inject into the system, particularly where you have different rules for different players as we do now, the more room there is for abuse and the harder it is to break into the system. That necessitates heavy de-regulation in order to streamline the system and put all the players back onto even footing.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that de-regulation is no regulation just like so many think that limited government means no government.

You do need a base to the pyramid but the base should be trade jobs more like construction, plumbing, trucking and the like, not simple base service jobs. Those are entry level jobs that used to be where your high school, college kids cut their teeth earning basic job skills and people went to earn and extra buck or two on the side. They were never intended or meant to be career jobs.

Tax reform is pointless until the government is made to stop spending and trying to grow itself. They will always take more and more until they cease to exist. That is solving the problem instead of treating the symptom. Crash the government, revolution or whatever you want to call it and 90% of ALL our problems go away.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 05:44 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide

I just read a thread from fellow member Hardiana which ties in with this thread perfectly. A reporter stumbled across an ALEC meeting and was kicked out. You can see the thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The whole problem is one tangled mess, much like a rancid plate of spaghetti. You think you tracked down the source of the corruption, only to find more and more leads to yet more corruption.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 06:10 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide

Once again, we have a criticism of what someone believes to be a product of Ayn Rand's way of thinking from someone that has no idea about what s/he is talking about. This typically comes from strawman type arguments using false examples to show how "evil" her ideals are.

Truth be told, for anyone who has actually read her literature, like Atlas Shrugged for example, (and I do not mean briefly thumbing through some pages) one would be immediately able to identify that the examples provided by Hefficide essentially represent the villains in her story, not the heros.

The idea is not as simple as the "rich vs. the poor". The amount of wealth and influence one had did not represent, in any way, who the "good guy" or "bad guy" was. It was about the mind of each individual, and how each chose to live one's life.

Being able to manipulate legislation, and treating workers like nothing--or worse-- like property was exactly contrary to what Rand's philosophies stood for.

Hefficicde, it appear that you have a bit of reading to catch up on.

As for the attack on Rand that she made use of social security, I am not really sure why anyone would see that as being hypocritical. For instance, one actually pays for it out of each paycheck. I believe her response was somewhere along the lines of "I may not like It but I was forced to pay for it. Why shouldn't I use what I paid for?" Making use of a thing (even if forced to pay into it) that one pays for by the fruit of one's labor is not contrary to her views at all.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 06:23 PM
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I think the single biggest take away from this thread is that this isn't a Republican vs. Democrat or conservative vs. liberal problem ...

This is a rich vs. poor issue. The people that control the government have money, and use it to direct the country. Neither political party represents the vast majority of the people. Both Democrat and Republican parties are beholden to the very, very wealthy and corporations.

We've seen that the Princeton study showed that no matter what the people of America want, from 100% in favor or 0% in favor -- there's only a 30% chance congress will do what the people want. We don't matter anymore.

Unless you contribute millions of dollars to buy elections and votes, you aren't important.

THAT is the problem, and THAT is the issue. The people writing the laws are writing them for themselves, and paying to have them passed with their mega wealth. The average American is getting steamrolled and forgotten about because the voice ($$$) doesn't matter.

We don't have a government that represents the people -- we have a government that represents less than 1% of the people.

THAT is the problem.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 07:11 PM
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originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE




BY NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN...you find yourself in a bad situation.


all of that can be chalked up to medical problems. i'm not kidding. poverty breeds emotional / mental problems. always having to be in survival mode, breeds emotional / mental problems. living in a war zone, 24 hours a day, for generations, breeds emotional/mental problems. i was watching a documentary about the state of society in large cities and in one case a black mother lost all 4 of her children in like one month, to inner city violence/drive by shootings.

Oh...don't get me wrong. I'm sure many, many people are mentally ill from dealing with what they have allowed their life to become. And yes, some where it wasn't their doing. But unless you are considering wiping the bad city streets clean of these people, I'm not sure where you are going with your observation.


if you look at the link in my signature, i was trying to come up with a solution starting with fresh veggies and fruits, and branching out into areas like emotional and mental well being clinics, and reacquainting people with the idea that being happy, financially secure and healthy is actually not a "white" thing exclusively, it's a human thing.




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