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The Conservative "Meritocracy" Paradise As It Recently Existed

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posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:06 PM
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There is not, nor has there ever been a moment in the history of mankind as we know of it, where an individual was not beholden to another individual, or group thereof


That's the problem we have in this country, a large number of people believe that they don't have any obligations to their society at all. But they'll be quick to tell you how moral they are and how evil everyone else is, even though they themselves don't want to do a damn thing to help anyone else.




posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:07 PM
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originally posted by: Hefficide


Hello once again ATS!

Realizing that it has been quite awhile since I posted anything other than the occasional short story or off-topic thread, a recent conversation has reignited my passions and led me to enter the fray once again. For my absence, I apologize. Real life can become quite a complex thing, as we are all aware - and taking a breather from the deeper ends of the pool is sometimes the wisest and most safe choice for ones health...

First...a very well presented post with lots of pictures, quotes and intelligent banter. However, the Conservative you describe doesn't describe the modern Conservative...at least as far as I'm concerned. Yes...I want limited government and government staying out of my day to day business. Yes...I want the freedom to soar as high as I can without limitations and I believe in sink or swim to a point.

I also believe in Social Security and help for those who find themselves, by no fault of their own, in a bad or dangerous situation. I don't believe in a blanket that protects everyone because some people deserve what they get, even if it means death sometimes. There is good and evil in our society and the evil should be weeded out like a cancer. I'm not talking about the single mother raising a child. I am talking about the crack addict having her fifth child so she can get more welfare. Just one example.

And you are partially right...I believe in growing strength and intelligence within our species and allowing (as nature does) the weak and stupid to die off. It is called strengthening the gene pool. Creatures who DON'T follow that fact of nature eventually find their species extinct.

But I am fair, I'm not a bigot and I have sympathy for those who are having troubles in their lives. I have no problem helping people who need help and are willing to work to get back on their feet and become a functional and productive member of society. Those who won't...we are better off without. (Note...won't instead of can't).

So no...I'm not saying you are completely wrong. I'm just saying that you are not completely right.
edit on 5/23/2015 by WeAreAWAKE because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:08 PM
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originally posted by: CB328



There is not, nor has there ever been a moment in the history of mankind as we know of it, where an individual was not beholden to another individual, or group thereof


That's the problem we have in this country, a large number of people believe that they don't have any obligations to their society at all. But they'll be quick to tell you how moral they are and how evil everyone else is, even though they themselves don't want to do a damn thing to help anyone else.


There is a difference between a society where I can choose to help and one that imprisons me and takes my "obligation" for granted.

What exactly is my fair share while we're at it?



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:13 PM
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originally posted by: CB328



There is not, nor has there ever been a moment in the history of mankind as we know of it, where an individual was not beholden to another individual, or group thereof


That's the problem we have in this country, a large number of people believe that they don't have any obligations to their society at all. But they'll be quick to tell you how moral they are and how evil everyone else is, even though they themselves don't want to do a damn thing to help anyone else.

But that also applies to the leeches of our society. "A large number of people believe that they don't have any obligations to their society at all." Like the ones who abuse welfare, the ones who simply refuse to support themselves, drug addicts, etc. They have obligations to society also...to take care of themselves, be productive or at least not destructive and if they are...they deserve nothing. It goes both ways.

Believe it or not...there are many in our society that are not deserving of help or charity.
edit on 5/23/2015 by WeAreAWAKE because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:13 PM
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a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

evil is typically the result of a medical problem, which includes mental and emotional issues. that we kill people for being ill, is cruel and shows a serious lack of concern for mental / emotional diseases. at one point, i had an infection in my brain and before it put me in coma, it drove me slowly bonkers. i would not wish that kind of suffering on anyone and i certainly wouldn't suggest the solution is to kill them. i have had large babies without pain meds (one of them breech), a breast cut off and sent home the same day, and i can tell you nothing is as bad as going slowly bonkers. what's our solution? we throw the mentally and emotionally ill, in prison and/or kill them.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:21 PM
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originally posted by: undo
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

evil is typically the result of a medical problem, which includes mental and emotional issues. that we kill people for being ill, is cruel and shows a serious lack of concern for mental / emotional diseases. at one point, i had an infection in my brain and before it put me in coma, it drove me slowly bonkers. i would not wish that kind of suffering on anyone and i certainly wouldn't suggest the solution is to kill them. i have had large babies without pain meds (one of them breech), a breast cut off and sent home the same day, and i can tell you nothing is as bad as going slowly bonkers. what's our solution? we throw the mentally and emotionally ill, in prison and/or kill them.


I had encephalitis when I was younger...I understand your pain. Many people need help from time to time and I support that if...BY NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN...you find yourself in a bad situation. But we also have takers, bloodsuckers and leeches among us who live to take from others and abuse the systems meant for the truly needy. But there is also something to be said for nature and a strong, good gene pool. Allowing bad genes to become the majority in any species is death for them all. Why kill off an entire species when allowing the failure of a few to strengthen us all is better? It is very much like Capitalism. What ever business fails should be allowed to fail. It wasn't a good business...obviously. And why allow the entire economy fail by propping up failed businesses that were simply bad ideas to begin with.
edit on 5/23/2015 by WeAreAWAKE because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:21 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


Considering my brother-in-law's family is comprised of some of those people - people who could do for themselves but largely don't because they are dysfunctional in the extreme - I think that you are basically out of bounds. I know the people I am talking about and you admit you do too.

We cannot have this conversation without really talking about the entire problem. If you want to have social programs, they need to be for those who actually need them and not those who really could make do for themselves but are simply enabled by your good intentions and your intent to shame the rest of us.



OOOoooohhhh!!!! And there it really is.
THAT is the root of your attitude.
You resent your extended family for not pulling their weight ("according to your standards"). That is perfectly understandable.
But when you come onto these threads and continue to lash out AT THEM via your posts towards "everyone" in modern society, we don't KNOW that.

Your attitude makes much, much more sense now.
Thanks for your disclosure.
You're terrified that you will be FORCED to help the guy's family.


Well, ketsuko, that is a situation that is exceptionally and certainly "too close to home" for you to speak objectively and philosophically about in this venue....which is the topic in terms of our nation.
You have a personal beef.
So - I would think that you'd WANT to have adequate social services in place (paid for by accumulated taxes) so that these relatives of yours can get help WITHOUT YOU.

Are you willing to 'keep them afloat' yourself? No? Then - who do you expect to do it?!!
You don't want them to receive tax-payer-subsidized assistance, and you don't want to help them yourself.
What YOU want their outcome to be is what you focus on.

So you want to eliminate ANY assistance to them? Not from you, not from the government.....not from ANYONE?

A community mental health center can help that family. They can hook them in to a network of agencies that can help them get back on their feet, with a professional case manager and an agenda. They'd be totally "off your back." And maybe get what they need to turn that corner.

Would you rather that they be abandoned totally? HOW would that satisfy you?????



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:27 PM
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It doesn't take much to turn a thread into poor- bashing these days.

Heff, they are making your point for you! And they are absolutely clueless.

This comment says it all:



What exactly is my fair share while we're at it?
Quote, I believe from Ketsuko.

Maybe we can return to "bread lines"? When the government had a surplus of wheat, so began making bread for folks, and the lines would cover city blocks?

Would that be okay with you Ketsuko? Or............... is it too much? The big bread give-away caper was actually in response to people getting tired of seeing the poor passing out in the streets from hunger. Oh! Their eyes! Save my eyes from the poor!

Actually, I'm laughing now. Yeah. At the sheer stupidity, and Thank God, for a mentality I will never be able to relate to.



edit on 5/23/2015 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:45 PM
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a reply to: WeAreAWAKE




BY NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN...you find yourself in a bad situation.


all of that can be chalked up to medical problems. i'm not kidding. poverty breeds emotional / mental problems. always having to be in survival mode, breeds emotional / mental problems. living in a war zone, 24 hours a day, for generations, breeds emotional/mental problems. i was watching a documentary about the state of society in large cities and in one case a black mother lost all 4 of her children in like one month, to inner city violence/drive by shootings.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 06:54 PM
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HERE'S THE ACTUAL PROBLEM:

they are using the poor's plight to extract large amounts of taxes from the people who work. then they skim huge sums of that money that was meant for the poor, to instead build bases all over the world and buy out their governments so they can then plant a central bank on their soil. then when the workers complain, they tell the poor that the workers don't want to help them.

that's it. whole problem in a nutshell.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ladyinwaiting


Considering my brother-in-law's family is comprised of some of those people - people who could do for themselves but largely don't because they are dysfunctional in the extreme - I think that you are basically out of bounds. I know the people I am talking about and you admit you do too.


Please report them for fraud. You do say these people are "dysfunctional in the extreme". Are they too dysfunctional to work? Maybe they are, I don't know.
I honestly don't know of any people right now who are deliberating trying to perpetrate fraud against the system. If I did, I would report them. Of course they exist, I'm just saying I don't personally know of anybody.


We cannot have this conversation without really talking about the entire problem. If you want to have social programs, they need to be for those who actually need them and not those who really could make do for themselves but are simply enabled by your good intentions and your intent to shame the rest of us.


But the issue is........... that's all you ever discuss. The real issues of the needy is never addressed, except in a fleeting way, while preparation is being made to proceed with the poor- bashing. I'm not trying to 'shame" you, K. Sincerely, I am not. But if you do feel 'shamed", then maybe you need to examine why. I find when I feel ashamed of something I have done or said, there is a reason I feel that way. My conscience bothers me.


You can hate me and call me a hard-hearted b**** all you want, but you won't change my position. And if you really do think we should just foot the bill for anyone and everyone who wants to sit on their a** and make you and everyone else who works pay for it and you establish such a system. I'm out! I'm just going to sit at home and you d*** well pay for my soon to be worthless b*** too.


Firstly, I don't hate you, and I don't think you are 'evil". Neither do I think the government should foot the bill "for any and everyone", and I have never and would never say that. I do not. But there are times when it is pertinent to discuss the social programs and the truly 'needy' and recognizing that they do exist! And my thoughts are that our country is able to do that, and we should assist those persons who are hungry, or disabled in some way, and cannot manage for whatever reasons on their own.
I'm delighted and thankful that I am whole and able to work, and take care of myself. But not everybody is! And because people at times have permanent or temporary issues doesn't mean they are freeloaders. It just means they are people who have permanent or temporary issues which cause them to need help --


edit on 5/23/2015 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 07:13 PM
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originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: Hefficide

I mean, a couple of them are getting social security.


erm it was their money in the first place (generally speaking). whoever is selling the idea that social security is an entitlement is being incredibly dishonest.


That is exactly my point. They don't seem to understand that the money was taken from their checks for social security, and so it's theirs. I've tried telling them that it's not an entitlement. Rush and people like him seem to know better though.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 07:48 PM
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originally posted by: Skid Mark

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: Hefficide

I mean, a couple of them are getting social security.


erm it was their money in the first place (generally speaking). whoever is selling the idea that social security is an entitlement is being incredibly dishonest.


That is exactly my point. They don't seem to understand that the money was taken from their checks for social security, and so it's theirs. I've tried telling them that it's not an entitlement. Rush and people like him seem to know better though.


Here's the problem: The way SS was supposed to work is not the way it now works. Originally, it was supposed to be like most people think it is. It was supposed to be that the money taken from you was put away and saved until you received it. It was supposed to be put into the Social Security trust fund. The problem is that at some point, the government started raiding the trust fund for money and essentially leaving IOUs behind. So right now, the money that goes in, goes right back out to pay for people's checks. It isn't the money they actually saved.

If the government actually had to make good on its liability, it couldn't do it. If the economy crashed and people stopped having pay checks to pay into the system, the system would crash. Why do you think the government so badly wants the illegals to become legal among other things? Then they can raid their earnings for SS liability to and try to keep the whole crazy scheme floating just a little bit longer.

Something else that most people don't realize is that the original system was also set up to be something that people would not collect from until one year after their life expectancy. THAT stopped being true at some point in the '60s. So instead of a system a person would likely only draw on for five or six years max, we have a system that most everyone will draw on for upwards of 20 which was not how the system was designed.

I do not expect to ever see one red cent of any of the money I put in to SS. I expect that the system will have crashed long before I get to it.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 07:56 PM
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a reply to: ladyinwaiting

the real issue of the needy is that the government that claims to be interested in supporting them, barely gives them enough to eat, much less feel secure long enough to heal from multiple traumas of living in povery and war zones. then when the poor complain, the government blames it on the tax payers, who are already paying nearly 100 different taxes, some of them for large amounts. the government WASTES that money on global domination. large chunks of tax money that they originally extracted from tax payers on the premise that it would be used to help the poor, the handicap, our police and fire depts, our roads and infrastructure, our colleges and so forth, is instead being spent everywhere BUT here.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:02 PM
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originally posted by: Skid Mark

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: Hefficide

I mean, a couple of them are getting social security.


erm it was their money in the first place (generally speaking). whoever is selling the idea that social security is an entitlement is being incredibly dishonest.


That is exactly my point. They don't seem to understand that the money was taken from their checks for social security, and so it's theirs. I've tried telling them that it's not an entitlement. Rush and people like him seem to know better though.


okay whew. that's a relief.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:06 PM
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a reply to: undo


Really, you want to see a nation, a communist nation that came to power on promises to the working man and the poor, managed to take over all productions ect and none the less millions starved to death while the government spent all it had on weapons and world subversion, see Russia.

The Poor in this country live like kings when compared to much of the worlds poor. The middle class in this country fairly see the poor as pampered and lazy complainers whatever they may think of the rich. Why one would think the poor in this country descend from royalty the way the government keeps them.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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a reply to: undo

The government also shifts the definition of needy, too. People who are truly in need: the elderly, the disabled, the ones who are going through tough times ... are competing with the ones who are simply working the system.

And the government has no incentive to weed the last group out because how many bureaucrats are there who make very, very large salaries and very fat retirement pensions off of running that entire safety net system? It's a lot, and they're living very well. There is every incentive there to grow that system and keep as many people on it as possible.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:16 PM
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originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ladyinwaiting


Considering my brother-in-law's family is comprised of some of those people - people who could do for themselves but largely don't because they are dysfunctional in the extreme - I think that you are basically out of bounds. I know the people I am talking about and you admit you do too.


Please report them for fraud. You do say these people are "dysfunctional in the extreme". Are they too dysfunctional to work? Maybe they are, I don't know.
I honestly don't know of any people right now who are deliberating trying to perpetrate fraud against the system. If I did, I would report them. Of course they exist, I'm just saying I don't personally know of anybody.



Considering that many of the programs are essentially a legal fraud you would have to start with the program. Most of the entire "safety net" is largely a fraud on working tax paying americans. These programs lend themselves to fraud, encourage fraud ect.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:16 PM
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originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: undo


Really, you want to see a nation, a communist nation that came to power on promises to the working man and the poor, managed to take over all productions ect and none the less millions starved to death while the government spent all it had on weapons and world subversion, see Russia.

The Poor in this country live like kings when compared to much of the worlds poor. The middle class in this country fairly see the poor as pampered and lazy complainers whatever they may think of the rich. Why one would think the poor in this country descend from royalty the way the government keeps them.



this IS russia. i mean the same guys who control our industry and banks, financed the bolshevik revolution, provided them help with technology and war supplies and trained them how to use it. taxed us to build new tech to offset the tech we had secretly given to russia, and rinse wash repeat.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:16 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: undo

The government also shifts the definition of needy, too. People who are truly in need: the elderly, the disabled, the ones who are going through tough times ... are competing with the ones who are simply working the system.

And the government has no incentive to weed the last group out because how many bureaucrats are there who make very, very large salaries and very fat retirement pensions off of running that entire safety net system? It's a lot, and they're living very well. There is every incentive there to grow that system and keep as many people on it as possible.




where would they work? the same guys that tax the hell out of us, also sold our infrastructure to china




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