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The Conservative "Meritocracy" Paradise As It Recently Existed

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posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:03 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Every generation think they are the last generation. Everyone always thinks the end of the world will happen in their lifetime, and they better be prepared. . .




posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:09 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: ketsuko

Every generation think they are the last generation. Everyone always thinks the end of the world will happen in their lifetime, and they better be prepared. . .


It's not about thinking the world will end. It's about trying to get people to draw a distinction about the types of people who rely on society to carry them.

At a certain point, I am forced to conclude that they simply refuse to see the point being made. It's more fun to pretend I'm evil. Then they don't have to really think about things.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:10 PM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

What you're going to hear is that any of the bottom-level workers are replaceable and worth very little -- whereas the executives are a dime a dozen and do a very specialized, highly intelligent and technical skill that has taken them years of valuable schooling to learn. This is why the CEO's make what they make -- there are far fewer of them.

In my experience, these top level people simply farm out the work (the math, spreadsheets, data gathering and analysis, the "specialized work") to others lower down and then just make "yes" or "no" decisions based off the work done on the backs of others.

I'm just preparing you for the argument you'll face ahead. . .



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


Does a society have an obligation to provide for someone who could care for themselves and chooses not to?

As opposed to someone whose job was shipped overseas and whose resume is ignored? Or, those who were not given educational opportunities and have been looking but not ever hired?


Not someone who can't for whatever reason, but someone who has had the opportunity to be productive and contribute in some capacity and decided not to because it was more fun to sit on the couch and play video games eating hot pockets?

"For whatever reason" being something different than those who lost their jobs but are perfectly able to do a job.....and don't receive any response to their applications? You think those people are HAVING FUN?

*facepalm*
edit on 5/22/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:19 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

Actually I disagree Burd. I think that the Pullman strike is being portrayed in exactly the correct light, though if you prefer I can easily take five minutes and find several more instances of note ( particularly in mining and railroad industries ) that are even more inflammatory and one sided.

Yes, there was a great deal of back and forth in the Pullman event. The workers did cause disruptions - after they were evicted from their homes with no notice among other insults. The disruptions were their attempt to make a stand to protect what was theirs. Of all people judging that, I would expect you not to be on the list - after all, you would protect you and yours with any and all force you could muster. We both know this.

Are those workers any less entitled to the same? Are they beneath you?

You can easily point to later strikes, particularly in the modern age and find a few that were spurious. But during the industrial revolution / expansion period it's very hard to demonize the examples given.

Oh, and irony of ironies - if the social safety nets we enjoy today - and which Conservatives are HELL bent upon destroying had existed during the Pullman incident, the strike likely would not have occurred. There would have been laws to provide the workers with time to relocate voluntarily, unemployment insurance to cover their immediate needs, severance packages or job placement elsewhere in the company as subject to the state laws of the parent company and so forth.

Which brings me back to my point - these events are WHY we have these social safety nets and programs. Because they were necessary for the national good. Because they protect ALL people, equally, from the dangers inherent in an Oligarchical environment. These laws and programs exist because people demanded them out of necessity.

I wonder if those who suffered the indignities of that era, and who fought and died for a better tomorrow did so knowing that a scant hundred years later they would be seen as freeloaders, agitators, traitors or communists by a segment of the population who simply do not like the notion of being taxed?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:20 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide


My granddad as a young guy participated in the Coal Wars or Red Neck Wars down in West Virginia. A distant relative of sorts still has one of the bombs, that failed to explode, tossed from an airplane on the miners and was on the History Channel showing it off.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:25 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: TrueBrit

What you're going to hear is that any of the bottom-level workers are replaceable and worth very little -- whereas the executives are a dime a dozen and do a very specialized, highly intelligent and technical skill that has taken them years of valuable schooling to learn. This is why the CEO's make what they make -- there are far fewer of them.

In my experience, these top level people simply farm out the work (the math, spreadsheets, data gathering and analysis, the "specialized work") to others lower down and then just make "yes" or "no" decisions based off the work done on the backs of others.

I'm just preparing you for the argument you'll face ahead. . .



What I always find hilarious is that none of you ever attempt to start your own companies and run them in the utopian manner that you demand. What is stopping you from starting a company, paying well above market wages for lower skilled employees, and capping management salaries? This is America. No one is stopping you. Show the rest of the world that it can be done. Stop talking and start doing.

If it is so easy and companies are just being greedy, the laws of economics and free markets mean you can exploit this hole in the market. Risk your capital and start a company.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:26 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom

I've actually had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with three different CFO/CEO's of major corporations during my years and the one trait they all shared was charisma. They were all good looking, friendly guys ( well one acted friendly but it was actually pretty easy to see that he was faking the Hell out of it ).

The one who was acting friendly. Guess how he got his position? A marriage present from his father. Eight million in cash and a major company. Yup, blood, sweat and tears. Earned it all by the fruits of his own labor.

Of the three the only one I felt was actually a self-made man was a gentleman named Don Kotula who paid his staff very well, respected or at least entertained all input and treated everyone from the top to the bottom exactly the same. A nicer guy one could not find if they tried.

And if all executives were like Don? I'd probably be on the other side of this argument. But the reality is that they are not. The majority are so wrapped up in the cult of self and greed that standing against them and making sure their influence is marginalized and kept in check is not simply an urge or predisposition. It's a duty.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:28 PM
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a reply to: Edumakated

Utopian manner? You mean wanting laws to regulate employer abuses, provide a safe workplace, and have measures to ensure that our government is something more than a puppet for Corporate interests?

Your definition of utopia, Sir, is highly skewed.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:32 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide


Of the three the only one I felt was actually a self-made man was a gentleman named Don Kotula who paid his staff very well, respected or at least entertained all input and treated everyone from the top to the bottom exactly the same. A nicer guy one could not find if they tried.

Yeah. A few years ago my youngest brother got a job doing 'sales' for a firm. He was deeply offended that at the end of the year, his company CEO chose to give EVERYONE in the firm an equal bonus.

From the secretary to himself....the gesture was awesome, in my opinion. Without secretaries or heavy-equipment operators, housekeepers or busboys, front desk workers or house-men, towel folders or floor moppers......THOSE COMPANIES would sink.

But only the ones who bring in the "biggest" sales account are worthy? THAT is CRAP.

I told my brother that the decision of the owner was awesome. (So did my husband. And my son. And we had not "ganged up on him" in premeditation - it was just how the convo rolled. A clash of attitudes.)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:35 PM
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We have a throw away society. Everything can be replaced, including workers. It's been my experience that most executives don't care a thing about workers. I was injured at the last factory I worked at and still have to deal with it 12 years later. I kept being put on a machine that was tearing me up due to repetitive motion. I told the bosses what was going on and even showed several doctors reports showing that it was injuring me. When I could no longer keep up it was "here's the door. Don't let it hit your ass on the way out." In the end, they got parts and hours of my time, while I got screwed. No job, and constant agony that lasts to this day. Not that they cared. I was replaceable, just like everyone else.
These corporations want to make it so that you're a virtual slave. All you have to do is look at a lot of these laws to see that.
edit on 22-5-2015 by Skid Mark because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:37 PM
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a reply to: Skid Mark


When I could no longer keep up it was "here's the door. Don't let it hit your ass on the way out." In the end, they got parts and hours of my time, while I got screwed. No job, and constant agony that lasts to this day. Not that they cared. I was replaceable, just like everyone else.

^^

That. I could tell you so many stories....true stories, from my own experience......



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:38 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Were the sales people on commission? Or partial or anything outside salary?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 07:49 PM
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a reply to: Logarock


Were the sales people on commission? Or partial or anything outside salary?

Nope.
Salary only. Very handsome salary. MUCH higher than the secretary was getting.

edit on 5/22/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 08:40 PM
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originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: ketsuko

Well except anthropology shows us that even our most ancient ancestors took care of the group as a whole. Populations that included adults with defects that surely prevented them from doing much in the way of hunting or helping, the extremely elderly and there is strong evidence that children were cared for by the entire group.

Nothing in nature, nor history supports this Atlas Shrugged dream that has poisoned modern America. In fact history shows, again and again, that meritocracy gives way to an elite or monarchical class almost instantly.


You make an interesting point. Logically, collectivism makes a lot of sense for early man. High death rates and inefficient hunting/gathering methods made it a necessity to divide up labor and share resources. Not to mention that only the strong, productive members of the tribe lived more than a few years and so every surviving individual contributed to the group.

Fast forward through a few thousand years of progress. At some point, the society reaches a level of efficiency resulting in surplus resources. Farmers realize they don't have to break their backs all summer long in order to feed their families, because the other farmers will share. Hunters decide it's not worth freezing their asses off waiting for that kill, because somebody else probably got one. Kings see that by controlling the distribution of resources, they can have absolute power. It is at this point that collectivism stops being beneficial and becomes a hinderance to progress.

With a handful of exceptions, every nation on the planet passed the tipping point centuries ago. To go back is folly, and the antithesis of 'progressive' or 'liberal.' When survival ceases to be a motivator, greed is the only viable alternative. Call it 'rational self-interest' if it makes you feel better. Bottom line - if I have everything I need to survive then I am not getting off my ass to work...unless it will get me a flat-screen or a bigger house or whatever the hell pleases me. That's human nature, no matter how much some might deny it.

Think it was ketsuko who made the pertinent Jamestown reference. I have to bring it up again, because it is so very demonstrative.
edit on 22-5-2015 by OpenMindedRealist because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 08:45 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: ketsuko

Every generation think they are the last generation. Everyone always thinks the end of the world will happen in their lifetime, and they better be prepared. . .


Does that mean it will never happen, and nothing anyone can ever do will push the world toward destruction?

Seems to me there are several common human tendencies that, if completely unchecked, would lead to the downfall of civilization.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 09:33 PM
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My biggest problem with social programs: they are supported via taxes levied on my labor. My labor is, i essence, my trading of my life for remuneration. That is sacred, and should be untouchable. The school programs I miss, the first words, first steps, holidays, good nights....all the moments that I miss in exchange for a way to support my family....that is holy. And the thought of the 20 some odd percent that I pay just kills me a little inside.

Property tax within a county pisses me off, too. Taxing city residents...that isn't a big deal. But if i choose to live in the county, outside of city services, I should not be paying property taxes on my property.

Commerce...that is what is taxable. Commerce is done using the government money, within the confines of government oversight, and often with government regulation.

Simply put: tax it on the way out, not the way in. As it stands now, they tax entry and exit from your pocket.

Social programs: i am for them. Mostly. But for the love of God, can the rules not be written in such a way that good people don't end up being screwed while scoundrels screw the rest of us?

RE: your OP....between Lincoln and FDR, there was 2 decent presidents, and one of them was assassinated. Hoover was a sorry racist in the pocket of organized crime. The raid on the encampment was ridiculous. It was certainly a crazy time in the US, with an attempted coup also being reported around the time.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 11:57 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The coup was attached, in spirit, to events ( The Bonus Army ) mentioned in the OP. General Smedley Butler.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 03:20 AM
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a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Your points are valid and seem to follow sound logic. But they miss on some levels. I spent my career in management and was subjected several times to a series of studies done that flatly showed workers were more interested in recognition than financial reward in the workplace.

IE telling them that they were appreciated was more desirable to them than getting a raise or bonus package.

This shows that there are deeper motivations than simple greed or want of things. If you are a typical person you most likely have spontaneously given to another person out of concern for them. Not pity. Not to feel superior. But simply because you saw their situation and felt empathetic.

I try very hard to keep the concept of religion out of my political threads, sometimes failing. Today is an example of failing - as I wish to point out that one of the most difficult to understand ironies in the Conservative mind set is that they strongly self identify as Christians ( for the most part ) and yet treat social and financial issues in a way that is glaringly antithetical to Christian doctrine.

This gulf of religious feeling versus actual behavior is a direct result of selective conditioning.

It is the selective conditioning ( read brainwashing or indoctrination ) that I continue seeking to break. We all know the old saying that a house divided cannot stand. Well, not only is our house divided. It is subdivided, exponentially - to the point where we, ourselves, are even tweaked into serving dual, utterly contrary masters.

A shining example of the rhetoric and the downfall thereof can be seen in the former President Bush and his statement that Americans already have free health insurance - emergency rooms. That single approach has elevated the cost of medical care in the US astronomically and is why hospitals seek to justify charging hundreds of dollars for things like a band-aid or an Advil. In reality it would have been far less expensive to simply provide low cost medical and preventative health care in the first place.

But that would effect some entities bottom line, and so...



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 05:13 AM
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So today I've been reading this amazing thread by Hefficide, who has conveyed so many thoughts most astutely; as well as this thread:

Half of All the [Medical] Literature is False

Between these two threads, what's interesting to me, is how so much of our world is comprised of what essentially results in justifications for employment to earn the almighty dollar.

Must have many wars, one after another, so that soldiers have employment.

Must have more and more medicines and vaccines to employ scientists and big pharma.

Must create more laws to employ more lawyers, and justify larger government.

Must have more arrests to justify and enlarge the prison industrial system.

Must have poverty to keep the wages stagnant, so that companies always have ever increasing profit. Though that profit never seems to trickle down into increasing wages.


You might look at this list and say "but that's what it takes for society to function!"
But really, IS society TRULY functioning?


Perhaps the reason the illusions are starting to crumble is because the whole machine of a system is based upon lies and fallacies - and for nothing more than justifying one's earnings. In fact if all of the falsehoods and sheer dishonesty were removed from every sector, there would be more unemployment than there is now, which is WHY so many buy into and continue the charade; fear.

There will never BE enough jobs for everyone, at least not anymore; we've had to create lies upon lies to justify the status quo as it is - as well as keep the current generation shackled in education debt in the hopes that they may one day have a job that sustains them better than minimum wage. Clearly if the system is based upon lies, we have outgrown the need for everyone to be employed; which is why the current monetary system is a flawed one - because every single day, more and more of the population are being left behind, with no way forward.

How anyone cannot see that the perks and privileges of the system were designed BY and go TO the very few who benefit is beyond me. The worship of sports figures and celebrities is insanity; with the result in their being venerated and compensated with millions of dollars - especially in light of so many out of work, no prospects, and going hungry and homeless at alarming rates. Our times may be modern, but the parallels of the great depression years are becoming im‫possible to ignore.

I agree with you Hefficide, that it is most disconcerting to see the middle class pander to the rich, in hoping for the crumbs of advancement. They really cannot see that not only is that super unlikely for the majority of them, but that they are also being used to conquer and divide the masses, and to their own eventual detriment.

So many people would be perfectly fine with seeing their fellow man, woman or child dying on the street of starvation it would seem. And then call them a lazy bum for daring to clutter up the sidewalk.



In another paradigm, we could be a culture of quality - quality education, quality health care, quality people, growing quality food, producing quality goods. Something to be proud of, and enriching everyone's lives, from the bottom to the top. Which is why it is so disturbing that we are not currently FOR any of these things - well we are, but clearly only for the very few.

I don't know what the answers are - but until more people see through the veil of this culture of lies, we have no society to be proud of, whatsoever. As far as I can see, we are under delusion and justifying our way to our own demise.



"Our society must make it right and possible for old people not to fear the young or be deserted by them, for the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members."
~Pearl S. Buck (1892-1973), My Several Worlds [1954].



"A decent provision for the poor is the true test of civilization."
~Samuel Johnson, Boswell: Life of Johnson



"...the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped. "
~ Last Speech of Hubert H. Humphrey



"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members."
~ Mahatma Gandhi



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