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The Conservative "Meritocracy" Paradise As It Recently Existed

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posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:15 PM
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I always ask conservative libertarians where on earth is there an example of a government that rules by their philosophy


They become mute


Then I tell them that the country that best resembles their paradise is

SOMALIA

Why don’t they move there?

I'm sure they'd be welcome

We sure won't miss em




posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:22 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


In the type of society we want, if my neighbor is a lazy idiot who would be perfectly happy to not ever lift a finger to do his own work and live off the crumbs we send his way, then why should we continue to feel obligated to send crumbs his way when times get tough and we have to look to our own?

This is very similar to the "Prayer of Humble Access" -

We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table.


So - by all means, keep your crumbs to yourself....or, ya know - pitch them into a rubbish-bin. Or hey! Stash them in a bank in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands!! Those people aren't worthy anyway. Right? /sarc
edit on 5/22/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:24 PM
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a reply to: Willtell

Somalia more resembles progressive criminal anarchy.

A rural very small very limited government would be closer to ultra-Conservative.

ultra-Conservatives as a rule don't want any big businesses either.

Pullman for example was a progressive big business.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:37 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen

No the op was correct, this utopia most resembles what you have yearned for. To be able to pollute at will to bust the heads or murder its employees to protect profit with no government protection sounds exactly what they wish to return too.

Interesting that lots of this injustice directed towards the people were from families that are still in control today.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:40 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

If a person is fully capable or working and they choose not to and do nothing to support the community, explain to me what obligation the community has to them.

I am not talking about people who are incapable for some reason or are down on their luck because they had a bad year or are ill or injured or something like that.

I am talking about someone who knows (as did every single one of the original Jamestown colonists) that no matter what he or she does or does not do to help support the community, he or she is always entitled to a full share of what is left.

Study Jamestown, the original philosophy saw them nearly starving because everyone trusted that "someone else" was doing that work to grow or gather food and they were too busy looking for gold or other more interesting and fun things.


+1 more 
posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen

Somalia progressive?

Oh please connect the dots on that logic for me! I cannot WAIT to see the acrobatic... nay... contortionist exhibitions necessary to even attempt it.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:47 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Be accurate - the first Jamestown expedition was comprised largely of Gentleman who are, ironically the very class I am arguing against. They trusted that their servants possessed the knowledge to make the colony work. Add to that the fact that they landed to late for planting season and the recipe for disaster was complete.

It was far from being a boatload of welfare minded people who thought the New World would be a cake walk. Those gentlemen took that risk for the chance to exploit the natural resources that had been reported as being abundant and free for the taking.

That is in addition to the political intrigues of several nations all racing to claim the land for themselves. But that does not take away from the truth spoken about the motives and mistakes of the first Jamestown arrivals. It wasn't until their third try that they began to understand that things were not going to be easy - and that's about the time slave and indentured labor arrived.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 04:50 PM
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originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: xuenchen

Somalia progressive?

Oh please connect the dots on that logic for me! I cannot WAIT to see the acrobatic... nay... contortionist exhibitions necessary to even attempt it.


Where did I claim Somalia is Progressive?

progressive criminal anarchy is not the same as progressive organized government with big corporations and big social programs involved.

Two different apples.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:02 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide

It had the same effect.

A lazy bum is a lazy no matter what his or her station in life.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:02 PM
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originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: zardust

The word used most to describe me is "liberal", though I do not use the word to describe myself often - and only when I find myself in a situation where I simply have to over simplify my thoughts for the sake of conversation and brevity.

As far as I am concerned, I am simply a rational human being with both compassion and a mind to see the bigger picture. I do not watch television. I do not subscribe to any party or political newsletters. I did get caught up in the Democratic party for a couple of years - but the truth be told that was my own pendulum swinging after realizing the selfish nature I had possessed as a lifelong Republican.

And I agree - Blue and Red are meaningless. They are the same thing. Having said that - this OP was addressed to Republicans and Conservatives because it is their side of the coin's propaganda machine which is most openly pushing for the entire Randian meritocracy based society.

But as for typical labels? None apply to me very well. I despise the false victimization claimed by so many on the far left equally. Both representations of the extreme ( and those who buy into it all ) are equally as damaging to mankind and to our nation.



This post: Awesome. Your opening posts: epically awesome. I wish I had more stars and flags to give you.

Funny enough, idealistically and ideologically, I am quite Libertarian. However, I live in the real world, and it is simply not realistic nor desirable. A true Libertarian utopia could not exist, because people are what they are. Selfish, violent, clannish, ego driven. Without some form of reign on these tendencies, you end up repeat tyranny and consolidation of power within the hands of the few. It is just human nature, and is the most predictable pattern in human history.

Perhaps in a few thousand years, if we haven't gone extinct and we make positive growth in science and the humanities, a true Meritocracy/Free Market Utopia could exist and regulate itself, but not with our current mentality and existing values. But currently? No. People simply can't be trusted to regulate themselves, nor do they tend to cooperate much beyond the clan/tribal level unless united under a bigger banner. And left unchecked, individuals with ambition and egos can cause problems for everyone.

To sum it up: Humanity is simply not grown up enough yet to be left to play unsupervised. While it certainly does not need helicopter parenting,it should not be allowed to roam the streets all hours of the night with explosives, drugs, and no adult supervision.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide

Well Somalia has very liberal gun laws every jeep has a 50 cal



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:06 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


I am not talking about people who are incapable for some reason or are down on their luck because they had a bad year or are ill or injured or something like that.

Or like - people who, because of off-shoring and downsizing.....can't find A JOB? Like that?
Is that what you mean?
Or -people who have never had the training or education to land, and keep a job?
Those people?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:14 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


If a person is fully capable or working and they choose not to and do nothing to support the community, explain to me what obligation the community has to them.

I am not talking about people who are incapable for some reason or are down on their luck because they had a bad year or are ill or injured or something like that.

RIght, so - and if the only job they can find - having been 'laid off' as a skilled worker - is a part-time service job earning an inadequate $7.25/hour, or TWO of those jobs, and STILL can't make it......
are you talking about THOSE people?

How about you explain TO ME, how the "Christian community" has no obligation to help them! You know, the one you love so much - the Christian Protestant Evangelical homophobic crowd, or the "Christian Protestant Ayn Randian" crowd who moved their job-providing businesses overseas and now stash their cash in the Cayman Islands, buy yachts and jets, and pay no taxes to avoid paying even $7.25/hour to DISENFRANCHISED AMERICANS? And they think that's okay?

The ones who are fine hiring poverty-stricken Bangladeshis at 25 cents per day (including children), and whose factories cave in on those workers?

Are those the ones you're talking about?

Yeah, ..... no.

YOU explain it TO ME, please.




edit on 5/22/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)


+4 more 
posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:15 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: Willtell

Somalia more resembles progressive criminal anarchy.

A rural very small very limited government would be closer to ultra-Conservative.

ultra-Conservatives as a rule don't want any big businesses either.

Pullman for example was a progressive big business.




Wow. That Kool-Aid must have been some shiz. I'll pass, though, thank you.

If you identify Somalia as in any way, shape, or form, anything close to what is currently called "progressive", then you are either highly delusional, or have no clue what the term means. Or what Somalia is actually like.

Somalia is, in fact, a perfect example of what happens when there is no strong governing body to keep people from eating their own children. With no laws nor authority to keep things civil, people gravitate back towards friends/local community, and the most dominant, forceful one takes over. Then, depending on resources, they go around waging war with other small clannish neighbors fighting over some insult or what not.

Hell, in a lot of ways, Somalia is actually more like a conservative utopia. No gays allowed, no commies, no hippies, no atheists, no feminists, women shut up and do what they are told, family values are paramount, no taxes, no gun laws, and guns, guns everywhere! Hell, you don't even have to pay workers, since you can keep slaves there. And religion rules the country!



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You are getting hysterical and taking me out of context.

I will put it in survival context:

Everyone in the tribe must gather the rough equivalent of a buffalo in order to survive the foodless period.

Most everyone does this to greater or lesser degree.

The shaman does not hunt. Rather he gathers medical herbs and plants, but his healing services are valuable enough that his work compensates for his lack of hunting. The others bring in more to feed him and he works to heal them and keep them hunting. The crippled man cannot hunt, but no one makes better spears. The others gather more to compensate for him, but they spend less time making hunting tools in return as he makes their spears.

The slacker does nothing. He doesn't hunt even though he could. He can't gather plants. Even thought he could learn how if he chose. He won't make spears because he just won't bother to take the time.

When the food comes up short and push comes to shove, which member of the tribe will likely go without if he hasn't bothered to get his own?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:24 PM
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a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

WoW

Looks like you mis-interpreted too !!

Hmmm. Oh well.




posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:25 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


You are getting hysterical and taking me out of context.

Nope! I'm telling you how it is.
You can think it's hysterical if you want, but it is a fact. For millions of Americans who were once doing fine.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:29 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Even Marx understands it.

It's right there with the quote everyone loves that beautiful thing about from each to his each according to need ...

Yeah, there's also a bit about how he who does not work shall not eat, too.

You can scream at me about today's crap economy all you want. I am talking about the essential problem with a perfect commune, not today's society.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

So industry has destroyed the buffalo population with pollution, so there is only enough buffalo for 1/3 of the hunters. The remaining hunters hunt everyday and only 1/3 of them are successful again because industry has left the environment unlivable for wildlife. The remaining 1/3 of hunters know this and know to hunt is pointless.

Many of the people receiving welfare work full time along with kids and the elderly, so your wish to eliminate welfare because there may be a few that abuse the system?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 05:32 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

lol nice ducking there.




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