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The Conservative "Meritocracy" Paradise As It Recently Existed

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posted on May, 24 2015 @ 07:16 PM
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a reply to: timequake


Once again, we have a criticism of what someone believes to be a product of Ayn Rand's way of thinking from someone that has no idea about what s/he is talking about. This typically comes from strawman type arguments using false examples to show how "evil" her ideals are.


Uh......

I think you haven't done your due diligence.




posted on May, 24 2015 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: timequake



Truth be told, for anyone who has actually read her literature, like Atlas Shrugged for example, (and I do not mean briefly thumbing through some pages) one would be immediately able to identify that the examples provided by Hefficide essentially represent the villains in her story, not the heros.

That does not invalidate the fact that those waving Rand banners are the ones yearning for a capitalist utopia while favoring the very toadies of legislation manipulation, such as Taggart's sleaze bag brother.

So James Taggart parades around with a Rand banner and the dupes fall right in line.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 08:08 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Hey, we're sitting next to each other again.

let's see now. "Meritocracy" as rule by those who demonstrate merit through wisdom, insight, intelligence, justice, and compassion, and hard work. Yeah, I'm all for that.

I wrote a poem for a lady once.
She commented that I must be pretty smart.
I responded, "Pretty smart, yeah."
Then she asked, "If you're so smart then why aren't you rich?"

It bothers me still that intelligence is measured, in the popular mind, by bank balances rather than some other standard.
edit on 24-5-2015 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-5-2015 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 08:18 PM
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here's an excerpt from my signature link thread

the people of this country have been debating the usefulness of government programs for awhile now. people are aligning on various sides regarding personal responsibility, and the pressure to perform (work to eat) is on. but people who are suffering with various levels of self hatred, ptsd, and other forms of mental and emotional illness, are not going to understand that. they just aren't. expecting them to is unreasonable and what you end up with is massive human suffering. that is not the correct approach.

if we can learn anything from ancient history besides how to kill each other (unacceptable direction, btw), it should be those moments when ancient leaders made really good choices, for everyone. lets take, for example, the biblical patriarch joseph, who was able to keep the people of egypt and elsewhere, from starving to death, by revealing to pharaoh an efficient way to do so as a result of revelation he had.

now i'm not saying this was some big revelation from god, unless you consider having a sudden realization that the inner city people were suffering from something akin to ptsd from living in a war zone every day of their lives, as a revelation (i guess realization and revelation might be similar). but think about it? by helping them, we inadvertently, end up helping everyone as the results can be replicated in other cities and towns. and it doesn't just help those who need help for basics, like eating and medicine, it helps in other ways as well.

for example, by decriminalizing illegal drugs, and rolling them into the marketplace, modifying them to be less dangerous and more usable for recreational or medical benefit, you provide a marketable product and resulting financial strata that currently isn't there in a way that benefits the community, and a job market for those who actually enjoy giving back to their community because they've managed to heal or stay healed, enough to do so. it's mired down atm, in isolated pockets of wealth and poverty, and self loathing, creating this negative feedback loop.

if you want people to think as independent, self sufficient beings, but they are really not capable of thinking that way in their current frame of mind, it seems only logical that the first thing you do is quit doing their thinking for them. you quit trying to tell them what to do with their bodies, and instead provide options that they can choose from when they want to, not when we demand it as a society. i know that may seem foreign to some people, but it isn't. it's good sound logic. want people to make their own choices? self sufficiency starts with letting them make their own choices. that ain't rocket science. it's logic.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 08:34 PM
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Excellent, well thought out post.

What most Conservatives conveniently ignore is that fact that nearly EVERY Republican leaning state takes more from the Government than it puts back, while nearly every Democrat leaning state takes less from the Government than they pay back. Republicans across the board use more welfare, more food stamps, more Medicaid, more medicare, more social security than Democrats across the board.

All while whining and complaining about the "Takers".

And don't even get me started on the amount on taxpayer money corporations get from the Government. "Corporate Welfare" is alive and well in the United States, and abuse of the system is rampant.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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a reply to: babybunnies

Got any links for all that?

Would love to see them to use for future reference.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 08:52 PM
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originally posted by: babybunnies
Excellent, well thought out post.

What most Conservatives conveniently ignore is that fact that nearly EVERY Republican leaning state takes more from the Government than it puts back, while nearly every Democrat leaning state takes less from the Government than they pay back. Republicans across the board use more welfare, more food stamps, more Medicaid, more medicare, more social security than Democrats across the board.

All while whining and complaining about the "Takers".

And don't even get me started on the amount on taxpayer money corporations get from the Government. "Corporate Welfare" is alive and well in the United States, and abuse of the system is rampant.


False.



posted on May, 24 2015 @ 11:36 PM
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Here is a current map of what parties hold the Governor in each state.

wiki

Here is a map of state and averaged local tax rates:

taxfoundation.org

4 of 5 with the highest tax are red states and almost all states with no sales tax are blue.

Here is a map of Corporate Income Tax per state:

taxfoundation.org

Here is a biased website but the map comes from taxfoundation.org and is dated Jan 15, 2015

The 7 Biggest Deadbeat States Who Mooch Off Taxpayers All Vote Republican

Here is another claiming the same thing:
GOP States Are The Most Dependent On Government

And for good measure a map showing attempted food sharing bans nationwide:


Here is another from this year that claims red take more than blue:
2015’s States Most & Least Dependent on the Federal Government



edit on 24-5-2015 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)


Here is a state interactive map showing the grades of education per state educationweek
edit on 24-5-2015 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-5-2015 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-5-2015 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 12:50 AM
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a reply to: LDragonFire

yah. Skerry.

It's very scary. Yes.

Thanks for the sources and graphics....



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 12:56 AM
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a reply to: pthena


I wrote a poem for a lady once.
She commented that I must be pretty smart.
I responded, "Pretty smart, yeah."
Then she asked, "If you're so smart then why aren't you rich?"

eegads. *sad*

Really?
Yeah. I - I just don't even ---- What???
I don't know what to say to that. I just....
I don't even know how to respond to that.

Sorry that it happened.




edit on 5/25/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 01:19 AM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs


Yeah. I - I just don't even ---- What???

Let me keep it on topic. Even Poet Laureates don't get rich from poetry.

I was living the good life; day job, doing the bar circuit, entertaining the heck out of people.
Hand published a 40 page book of collected short stories and poems. Nice laminated cover.

Then the tragic event. Two months later I was living in my car, in the woods, away from everyone.

Not on the public dole(on topic), not panhandling (on topic).

Couple years later I was working at an oil changing shop. Never did the bar scene again. Never even did a third addition of my book.

Here's the kicker: About six months previously, my ex-wife showed me an article on "All poets are mad" which actually concluded that prose writers had higher incidents of committals and suicides than poets. So I switched to doing poetry almost exclusively. Didn't work for me I guess.

ETA

Also on topic, some of the prose work I was doing: These anonymous works from a pamphleteer were showing up in the breakroom of a facility where the employees could have very much benefitted from collective bargaining. When I was changing oil, one of my former fellow workers came in for an oil change. She said the place was Union. Pretty Cool, huh

So everything worked out.
edit on 25-5-2015 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 02:13 AM
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a reply to: LDragonFire

As a resident of one of those Red states - I can tell you that the absolute irony ( at least in my home state ) is that the State Legislature is adamant to a default about only accepting Federal funds if there are ZERO strings attached - and often craft State Laws to this end.

In short, let's say that there is a Federal Grant to help states pay for medical care for the indigent or for school lunches for the poor or whatever... The state I live in will accept the funds and then flatly refuse to use it for the purposes it was actually provided for.

Supporters of States rights love this sort of thing - but in practice it's a nightmare. For example my state has ZERO - NADA - NONE - NO state funded mental hospital(s).

Now, while one can look at state funded mental hospitals as charity and, therefore, to be held in contempt... on the other hand - there are people in this world with illnesses that make them delusional and potentially dangerous to the remainder of the population. They aren't evil, profiteering criminals. They're just sick people. Here? They get no help at all. My state prefers the process of allowing these sick people to worsen, until they act upon their delusions. Then they are heaped into the prison for profit system and left to rot without treatment. Warehoused for private industry to make a buck off of.

My state GETS Federal funding for mental health mind you. Tons of it. BUT the Governor and State legislators proudly and openly brag that Washington does NOT tell us what to do.

Oh, FTR my states Governor was a high profile career Senator who was a leader in the GOP until he got busted for corruption and Censured.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 03:00 AM
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a reply to: Hefficide


there are people in this world with illnesses that make them delusional and potentially dangerous to the remainder of the population. They aren't evil, profiteering criminals. They're just sick people.

Delusional people aren't all dangerous. Movie references Harvey, Miracle on 34th Street . Sometimes all they need is to be recognized as disabled/unemployable for Social Security purposes.

There's this guy I know who actually doesn't hurt anybody. He heard about a Salmon Habitat Recovery project wherein unharvested Christmas trees were transplanted along feeder streams, almost instantly he popped out a poem:


Look at this as would a child,
trees from a farm
now in the wild.

Not only that but salmon too
from a hatchery
to somewhere new.

In a few years
a wonder to see
Salmon spawning
under a Christmas tree.

copyright 1998, used with permission



He can do that, but can't keep a job.
edit on 25-5-2015 by pthena because: correction



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 03:04 AM
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a reply to: pthena

I absolutely agree that not all mentally ill people are dangerous, those with delusions included. BUT those with severe illnesses ( which include delusions ) require a level of, I don't want to say "control" but maybe "observation". Somebody around to ensure that the delusions are not evolving into dangerous territory.

My symptoms do not include delusions and I still make sure I bounce a LOT of my thoughts off of others just to make sure that they aren't too far out of the ordinary.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 03:20 AM
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a reply to: Hefficide

My daughter keeps an eye on me.

Ridiculously under funded county mental health facility set me up for testing to qualify for Social Security qualification.



My state GETS Federal funding for mental health mind you. Tons of it. BUT the Governor and State legislators proudly and openly brag that Washington does NOT tell us what to do.

Remember No Child Left Behind? Wasn't that all about Federal oversight of Federal money? That doesn't count for anything else?
edit on 25-5-2015 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 03:29 AM
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a reply to: pthena

Good luck on that journey. Sounds very familiar to my world. It took me 6 years.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:03 AM
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originally posted by: LDragonFire
Here is a current map of what parties hold the Governor in each state.

wiki

Here is a map of state and averaged local tax rates:

taxfoundation.org

4 of 5 with the highest tax are red states and almost all states with no sales tax are blue.

Here is a map of Corporate Income Tax per state:

taxfoundation.org

Here is a biased website but the map comes from taxfoundation.org and is dated Jan 15, 2015

The 7 Biggest Deadbeat States Who Mooch Off Taxpayers All Vote Republican

Here is another claiming the same thing:
GOP States Are The Most Dependent On Government

And for good measure a map showing attempted food sharing bans nationwide:


Here is another from this year that claims red take more than blue:
2015’s States Most & Least Dependent on the Federal Government




Here is a state interactive map showing the grades of education per state educationweek



The simple fact that you claim a state like IL or MA are red pretty much shows how shallow those charts are in their analysis. Yes, IL does have a Republican governor now, but the state legislature as well as Chicago are solidly Democrat. In addition, Red states often receive more military dollars due to geographic location of bases which skews the numbers. You cannot simply say what states get most government spending without going deeper.



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:22 AM
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originally posted by: Edumakated
You cannot simply say what states get most government spending without going deeper.



Looking forward to reading a deeper analysis... will you provide it?



posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: Edumakated

I never claimed it was a red state I showed it was a state with a republican governor.

Its my belief that republican governments are not very good or effective, this is one reason why the rise or gaining popularity of the libertarian right. Education ranking is just one area that helps to prove my belief. Sorry for railing against republicans when dem are not much better but generally speaking blue states do rank higher or better than red states.

But the thread is directed towards libertarian/conservative ideas of some sort of utopia, and if I was a republican in a red state, I would definitely turn to libertarian based on the failure of local and state governments to effectively lead or to govern. I have shown the tax rates for state and local averages are highest in 4 out of the top 5 are red states, states that have no state income tax are all blue. States that have no corporate income tax (foolish IMO) are red states and states with the worst education rankings are red states.

I could also show states that use the for profit prison industry are mostly red states (not all but most), most of these states include keeping these prison filled to 90% capacity opening the door wide open for corruption and trampling on the rights of the citizen to keep prisons full regardless of crime rates. Again no wonder the libertarian movement is growing, yet spend the majority of time blaming liberal or progressives for all that is wrong with the country.




posted on May, 25 2015 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

the abuse by the "needy" is discussed quite often, but, why is it that in the city that I was born and raised in a large percentage of the local gov't officials from mayor's to aldermen we involved in providing housing to the poor?? housing that, by the way, cost more than many of the working non-poor couldn't have afforded if they wanted to?? I mean $1,000 for a rat invested 4 brm apartment with leaky sewage pipes in the 90's would never have been affordable to many in the working class and quite frankly, those workers would have been able to go elsewhere and get something much more affordable in much better shape!!

if we are to discuss the abuse of the welfare programs then lets focus on both ends of the system. ya know doctors who order unneeded tests simply because they know it will be paid for by gov't programs, employers who will pay slave wages knowing full well that it doesn't really matter since well the gov't will provide enough aide to get their workers through the month. ect. those one the other side of those benefit programs benefit also, as well as abuse the trued spirit of those programs.




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