Was Pearl Harbor allowed to happen?

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posted on Dec, 23 2004 @ 12:27 AM
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Was Pearl Harbor allowed to happen to draw us into World War II? We have all heard the reports of prior knowledge of an imminent attack, spotted, heading towards our fleet at Hawaii but was it an error in judgment or something more that ultimately drew us into the war? Was it just a matter of dumb luck that our “invaluable” carriers were out to see and not damaged in the attack or did somebody know something was headed our way? If Japan would not have struck at Pearl Harbor, when it did, would the Axis have one World War II? When Japan struck our naval fleet at Pearl Harbor it drew us into a conflict that we were able to, up until that point, all but somewhat avoid. Sure, we were supplying Brittan with supplies and some assistance but we hadn’t jumped into full scale combat minus the occasional incidents in the north Atlantic. All points were leaning towards an eventual conflict with Germany but we were still in the Isolationist mind set which kept us largely uninvolved.
Meanwhile Germany was pounding the British with constant bombing raids and an invasion seemed imminent. Sure the British were holding their own but it all seemed just a matter of time before England would fall to the Germans. With England in check, for the most part, Germany would begin Operation BARBAROSSA and invade the USSR. The Third Reich seemed poised to take control of all of Europe and soon most of Asia as they seemed unstoppable. It was at this point that the US was attacked by Japan and drawn into the war in the Pacific. Four days later, Hitler would declare war on the US and the tide of the German success would soon begin to change. With the Third Reich entrenched in a massive conflict on the Russian front and Britain still looming in the North the involvement of America would soon prove too much for Germany to handle. Eventually, the Germans would fall as the Allies slowly crept in on them from all sides culminating with the fall of Berlin. Not long after, with all focus on Japan, the US would drop the atomic bomb and bring World War II to an end.
Until America became involved in World War II things were looking pretty bleak for England and to an extent the USSR. The government of the US could see that Germany was running virtually unchallenged through all of Europe and would soon take England and probably most of Asia. They knew we would eventually need to become involved but the mind set in the country was completely against it. As in World War I, they knew that something horrendous needed to take place in order to gain the support of the American people. Unfortunately, controversial incidents would happen in both wars that would draw us in.
Pearl Harbor will go down as one of the darkest days in American history but from that we grew as a country and a military super power. Without Pearl Harbor would we have ever garnered enough support to take on Germany and Japan or would we have waited until they were at our doorstep? Was this event allowed to happen in order to raise support for our involvement in World War II and if so who had a hand in it and who stood to benefit? Finally, and unfortunately, does any of this sound vaguely familiar to you?




posted on Dec, 23 2004 @ 07:36 AM
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As what I can remember, Pearl Harbor wasn't allowed to happen, it had to happen in order for the U.S. to go into war. When the U.S. broke the act of neutrality, by stopping the supply shipment to Japan, in a way, an Embargo (which is an act of war). The Japanese acted in retaliation. This allowed for the U.S. to engage in WWII. Without it, the U.S. would have to stay a neutral country. So, even though the U.S. instigated the Pearl Harbor raid, they ultimately got their wish of being able to enter the war. I'd also like to add the Atlantic Charter of 1941, in which Churchill and Roosevelt met in order to discuss a post-WWII plan. Which gave Roosevelt incentive to join the war. I'm probably missing a few things, but I suppose that's the jist of it.



posted on Dec, 23 2004 @ 07:45 AM
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I'm not saying I think there is a conspiracy about pearl harbour...but this website is very intriguing...have a look (just do a goole on pearl harbour conspiracy...lots of info for your enjoyment)

www.geocities.com...


PEARL HARBOR
MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." ARMY BOARD, 1944
President Roosevelt (FDR) provoked the attack, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn the Hawaiian commanders. FDR needed the attack to sucker Hitler to declare war, since the public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. It was his backdoor to war.

FDR blinded the commanders at Pearl Harbor and set them up by --



posted on Dec, 23 2004 @ 01:18 PM
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There is a lot of evidence that the United States directly knew that Japan was going to attack us and didn't warn the bases; and also a lot of evidence that they knew the attack would be on Pearl Harbor. One big piece of evidence is that the Japanese literally warned the United States that they were attacking.

Japan did NOT want to go to war with the United States. Don't believe that silly "Pealr Harbor" movie; they knew what they were going up against if they failed to knock us out of the war. They only did because we cut off their oil. And they DID NOT surprise attack the United States. They warned us, just what isn't proven is if the gov't got the warning in time to have warned Pearl Harbor or not.

I am not trying to make the Japanese sound good or anything though, they did do some terrible war crimes, but I mean they didn't surprise attack the U.S. the way so many believe.



posted on Dec, 23 2004 @ 01:29 PM
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Here is my take on it and Ive often comptemplated getting my masters in history and this may be a thesis topic.

1) New Deal may have been headed for failure. Nothing props up an economy like unrestrictive warfare.
2) Why were the carriers absent when they should have been in port?


Lots of questions, but are there any answers?



posted on Dec, 23 2004 @ 01:31 PM
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the scariest thing I've read over the years about this is a australian (I think) navy vessel spotted the japanese fleet and radioed the US base in pearl harbor to warn us, but the message was not relayed to the ships....very sad......



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 12:30 AM
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Originally posted by FredT
1) New Deal may have been headed for failure. Nothing props up an economy like unrestrictive warfare.
2) Why were the carriers absent when they should have been in port?


These are two very good points FredT! Unrestricted warfare propping up an economy, hell I don't think this country will ever get behind a war effort like they did in that war. Towards the end of that conflict, we were building huge liberty ships in a matter of days. Our industry grew by leaps and bounds because of that war and the country prospered like never before after that conflict ended. Also, it has always seemed like such dumb luck that these carriers were out to sea. Sure, they could have been doing maneuvers but man what luck for us that they weren't there as they would have been prime targets and no doubt destroyed. Because of these carriers we were still a formidable force in the Pacific and it didn't take long for the US to get back up to speed. Without them, we would have probably had the Imperial fleet off of our coast within weeks.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by Broadsword20068
Japan did NOT want to go to war with the United States.


If they did not want to go to war with the US; why did they transmit a lengthy declaration of war on Sunday 7 December 1941?

Also why did they plan a pre-emptive attack (organised by Admiral Yamamoto) on the US Pacific Fleet's base in Hawaii - Pearl Harbor, on the very same day the message was transmitted?

It is obvious they had in fact planed a war on the US, so you can stop kidding yourself.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 04:08 PM
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the scariest thing I've read over the years about this is a australian (I think) navy vessel spotted the japanese fleet and radioed the US base in pearl harbor to warn us, but the message was not relayed to the ships....very sad......


Thats a well known story here in Australia, although the validity of it,
I'm not sure.
For the life of me can't find a link to it.

[edit on 24-12-2004 by madhatter]



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by madhatter


the scariest thing I've read over the years about this is a australian (I think) navy vessel spotted the japanese fleet and radioed the US base in pearl harbor to warn us, but the message was not relayed to the ships....very sad......


Thats a well known story here in Australia, although the validity of it,
I'm not sure.
For the life of me can't find a link to it.



[edit on 24-12-2004 by madhatter]


If there are no links and no proof all one can do is take it as a hoax, or take it as a story someone made up.

[edit on 12/24/2004 by shots]



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
Japan did NOT want to go to war with the United States.


If they did not want to go to war with the US; why did they transmit a lengthy declaration of war on Sunday 7 December 1941?

Also why did they plan a pre-emptive attack (organised by Admiral Yamamoto) on the US Pacific Fleet's base in Hawaii - Pearl Harbor, on the very same day the message was transmitted?

It is obvious they had in fact planed a war on the US, so you can stop kidding yourself.


The Japanese DID NOT want to go to war with the United States. They knew they had to, more or less, but they didn't want to because of the risk. Yamamoto had been educated in the U.S. and he knew of the industrial might the United States had. He told the Japanese that if they go to war with the United States, they had to knock it out of the war before it could convert its industrial capacity over to warfighting. The Japanese had to take out the American carrier fleet to open up the Pacific to attack. Luckily, they got caught with their pants down by the U.S. first and we destroyed their carriers. After that, they were finished. Had the U.S. lost its carriers, it still could have produced more carriers eventually, as it had far more industry and raw materials.

Yamamoto was a brilliant military tactician. He wasn't stupid. He knew when and when to not go against a nation. Japan had no real choice though; they needed oil, or they'd lose their empire. Before attacking, the emperor of Japan even asked Yamamoto what were Japan's actual chances of beating the United States; Yamamoto told him if they could knock out the U.S. before its industrial might go going, they could probably win, or at least get their oil coming back. Unfortunately for them, they lost, and the U.S. bombed them all the way to hell and gone.

It IS true I believe that many of Japan's gung-ho war generals wanted to go to war with the United States, but they were the ones who weren't as educated of the U.S.'s capability at the time as Yamamoto was. Yamamoto had to push them NOT to go to war so brashly, and Yamamoto himslf never really wanted war the way the other Japanese military men did (from what I have read anyhow). He was just Japanese, and a brilliant tactician, so he did his job as best he could.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by Broadsword20068[/i
The Japanese DID NOT want to go to war with the United States. They knew they had to, more or less, but they didn't want to because of the risk. Yamamoto had been educated in the U.S. and he knew of the industrial might the United States had. He told the Japanese that if they go to war with the United States, they had to knock it out of the war before it could convert its industrial capacity over to warfighting. The Japanese had to take out the American carrier fleet to open up the Pacific to attack. Luckily, they got caught with their pants down by the U.S. first and we destroyed their carriers. After that, they were finished. Had the U.S. lost its carriers, it still could have produced more carriers eventually, as it had far more industry and raw materials.


No one forced Japan to attack the US, Japan did it on their own. They were greedy and wanted to control the whole pacific and even China, history records state that as a fact.



posted on Dec, 24 2004 @ 11:02 PM
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Shots, I too believe that they were power hungry and did want to control all of the Pacific. I believe though, that they full well knew that they had to get a knock out punch in order to win the Pacific. It was actually a pretty good move when you think about it, albeit a dirty one. I believe that there is no way that those in charge for the US could not have seen something like this coming. I mean they had everything concentrated in one area with a large agressive Japanese navy just milling about the Pacific. Hawaii is not that close to the mainland US so why would all of that millitary might be concentrated in one area when we knew that relations with Japan were spiralling donwards rather quickly. Wouldn't it make sense, in a world were radar had not yet played an important role, to have your naval might a little more "spread" out. Also, with as many reconnaissance missions that were flown how did we not catch this massive armada moving towards us? I guess one can claim that the Pacific is so large that this fleet just snuck in, unseen, and pulled off one of the most successful sneak attacks in history. I guess I just don't want to believe that we could be caught with our pants down that badly. Of course, this has been known to happen from time to time.



posted on Dec, 26 2004 @ 04:11 PM
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There is a book by a retired admiral or general that tells the story of how there was notice of what was happening and that the message got lost. I read it years ago and can't remember the name--sorry -- but someone good with searches could probably find it. (that surely doesn't describe me)

jm



posted on Dec, 26 2004 @ 04:21 PM
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Justme, this is what surprises me the most about what happened at Pearl Harbor. If there was a message, of an impending attack, how could it get lost? Were those in charge so sure that an attack would not take place that it wasn't given any importance? Did some one in the chain of communication make one of the biggest blunders of all time and drop the ball? It's so frustrating to know that if this message was taken seriously we could have sent out some planes to verify that an attack was heading our way and we could have went to sea. It would have been a different story if we could have faced them at sea instaed of sitting in port.



posted on Jan, 2 2005 @ 02:54 AM
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as posted by FredT
2) Why were the carriers absent when they should have been in port?


This might answer your question?

FAQ: The Pearl Harbor Attack, 7 December 1941: Where were the Carriers, 7 December 1941?




seekerof



posted on Jan, 2 2005 @ 03:24 AM
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Good find! That definitely lessens the mystery surounding the attacks that day. I guess it was just dumb luck that they weren't there after all. Thanks.



posted on Jan, 2 2005 @ 03:46 AM
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I found a link here on an Australian warning about Pearl Harbour Here
Now I'm not saying it's fact or fiction either way, just a link for you to
check out



posted on Jan, 2 2005 @ 04:21 AM
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Well when the U.S. broke the act of neutrality, and created an Embargo on pretty much all oil going to Japan, war was imminent. Japan needed her own oil to survive and the U.S Pacific fleet was in the way, and the rest is history as they say.

As for allowing it to happen, well I am not sure about that however I do know that the U.S fired the first shot. A Japanese midget submersible was located and sunk just outside of Pearl Harbor a few hours before the first wave of Japanese fighters reached the mainland.

Also about the declaration of war, I believe the Japanese transmitted it 10 minutes before the first wave of aircraft left the carriers. I remember reading that the communication was held up and did not get to the proper authorities in time.



posted on Jan, 2 2005 @ 05:13 AM
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Truth be told the Americans had no idea pearl habour was the target. The allies thought the japs were a primative race who coudnt shoot straight and couldnt see at night. The fact the carriers were at sea was due to the fact at least one of them was ferrying planes to Wake Island . Few people understood air power properly some thought it could win a war by itself (hence the ill fated build up of B 17 bombers in philippines.) and others saw the aircraft as a toy.
Admiral Kimmel and general Short were made scarp goats by the government and the public.

Also about the declaration of war, I believe the Japanese transmitted it 10 minutes before the first wave of aircraft left the carriers. I remember reading that the communication was held up and did not get to the proper authorities in time.
I think the message you refer to was another war warnimg and was sent thou commercial telegraph lines rather then military lines by mistake hence the message did not reach pearl habour till after the attack.

Pearl habour was the result of a series of mistakes including the philippines debacle. General Macarthur’s head should have been on a platter along with Kimmels and Shorts after all he had ample time after the Pearl habour raid.
Who could forgot all the P40s lined up wing tip to wing tip to prevent sabotage ?





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