It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

sin is a biproduct of freewill, right?

page: 3
4
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 20 2015 @ 08:10 PM
link   
a reply to: Ghost147

How often do you trust something deeply without reason?




posted on May, 20 2015 @ 09:18 PM
link   

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147

How often do you trust something deeply without reason?


Never, but I didn't say anyone did trust something without reason. I said people believe and trust things without evidence.

Again, I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 09:29 PM
link   
a reply to: TzarChasm

In Hitchensian irony:

"Of course I have free will; I have no choice but to have it."



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 10:52 PM
link   
a reply to: Ghost147

The conversation was about the meaning of faith:




That's a lot of absolute knowledge for a belief system that requires belief without evidence (faith)


You claimed that the Christian religion is based on belief without evidence(faith). This is a valid definition of the word "faith", but it is not the definition of the word when used in the context of Christianity. Now after I explained to you that the reason that definition is not used is because it is translated from the Greek word "pistis", which as I said is synonymous to a deep trust, to which you claimed that a deep trust in something was the same as belief without proof. Yet, when asked if you every deeply trusted anything without a reason you said never. Reasons answer why. Evidence answers how or when. Deep trust requires a reason for that trust...an answer to why the trust is there, and this more often than not includes evidence. I trust that if I jump up I will come down. The reason is gravity. The evidence for gravity is mathematics behind it. The point I am trying to get across to you is the my belief system in no way requires belief without evidence.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 11:06 PM
link   
Since we are discussing free will, and I am glad this turned in to a real discussion not just trolling by the OP, I do believe in free will, but has anyone considered Buridan's Ass? I have my own ideas on this.

Buridan's Ass



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 11:38 PM
link   

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I trust that if I jump up I will come down. The reason is gravity. The evidence for gravity is mathematics behind it. The point I am trying to get across to you is the my belief system in no way requires belief without evidence.


You trust that when you jump, you come back down because of experience, not gravity. Your existence of your trust in that matter does not rely on your knowledge of gravity. The cause for you to fall back down to earth is because of gravity, but the reason that you trust that you will has nothing to do with the knowledge of the phenomena.

People trusted that if they were to sail far enough into the ocean that they would fall off the corners of the earth. The reason they didn't is because that belief is false.

I'm afraid I still do not understand what you're trying to suggest.
edit on 20/5/15 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 12:08 AM
link   

originally posted by: LongishLongo
If sin is a biproduct of freewill, and there's no sin in heaven... then wouldn't that mean you don't have freewill in heaven?


Logic!


Sin is not a byproduct of free will.

Angels themselves have performed unspeakable sins. Sin and Rebellion against God is like a force in this World / Construct, seducing even the hosts of heaven.

You have freewill to choose the way of "sin" which always takes you further down, almost like drugs. Addiction leads to constant degradation, the more you sin, the greater your appetite for sin becomes until you wake up wondering how the hell you have fallen so far (like an alcoholic or drug addict). Others don't come to that realization and simply justify what they are doing.

Misery loves company the old term goes. Sin definitely does. Haven't you ever noticed the more people sin, the more they try to drag others into doing it, accepting it as OK, and self justifying it? Sinning a little leads to sinning more which leads to even more loss of your morals until you discover you have become something or someone who you would have never tolerated in years past. You have compromised yourself to the point you don't even recognize how far you have fallen.

Anyway. You have freewill. You get to see it for yourself, how destructive Sin and Rebellion against God's law is (the consequences on yourself, your loved ones, and society as a whole), and choose if you accept this World's Way of Sin as your God / way or you want to reject it and follow God's laws by choice. Which do you choose now that you have lived in the decay and corruption of it all?

As I said, even the hosts of heaven have fallen to temptation, corruption, and sin. What better test than to live a life in it and choose if you want to join the way of God in his eternal heavens or choose this shallow world of sin.

That is how it works now. Sin corrupted everything. Yashua was the life sacrifice to pay for our sins for those who confess this, repent, and do what they can to get Sin out of their lives as much as possible going forward.

Choose wisely, Accept Yashua's sacrifice (as the true son of God who died for your sins as predicted at the beginning of this world, The Messiah, was risen and sits at the right hand of God) as the price paid for your sins in your life up to this point, repent of them, all of them, and get it out of your life like an alcoholic would get rid of all the booze in their life and the situations which would tempt them to drink again.

Reject this World, sometimes called the world of the flesh, and choose the eternal life or never ending happiness with God.

I hope this makes sense for you.



edit on 21-5-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-5-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 12:25 AM
link   
a reply to: Ghost147

Then I am afraid I can't help you



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 12:34 AM
link   

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: PeachesNCream
a reply to: LongishLongo
Well logically you would be right but you can't use logic when addressing religion.


I 100% agree! Religion is completely and utterly illogical.

To further your question. (and I hate to be a broken record, but....) If god knows all your decisions, and he is all knowing and absolute with his power, then there is no possible way you could choose something he didn't already know you were going to choose. There for, if you are bound by God's Omniscience, then choice is just an illusion. There is no free will to begin with.

Which means there sure as hell isn't any free will in heaven.


Think of it as watching a replay of a video game contest on youtube. You can watch it many times as you are "outside" of the time the characters, tanks, icons, whatever in the game were when played. You can fast forward, rewind, whatever but you are not actually controlling all the "characters choices" in the game. You may have controlled a few or had an influence or done a few moves in the game to prevent your team from being utterly destroyed, but the massive amount of players, all had freewill during the game that you are watching a reply of.

Now, that you see an ending which was really bad, you jump back in time and make a move or two different, rewatch the video playback, see the changes, and either stay with what you have done or go back again, knowing what will happen, and change something else until you get the end result desired or best result possible maybe.

Since the laws of space and time do not apply to God, I envision "something" like this.

God could see multiple endings and intervened to prevent catastrophic things from utterly destroying the place until a desired end result was achieved.

Does that make sense. The final timeline was decided but the individual players in the game or simulation have free will to make their choices as events occur in the world as a whole.



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 12:41 AM
link   
a reply to: infolurker

I understand the concept you're conveying, however, it does not apply to how god functions (if he is in indeed all knowing). See, in your example, the player (or us) who is watching the recordings doesn't have absolute knowledge about everything within the game. God does have this knowledge. He knows what every player is going to do, he knows exactly what will occur, he knows all the outcomes. The viewer in your concept does not know any of these things because he is not omniscient. He is just watching the screen.

So the problem still is evident. If god knows everything about everything, then there is no possible way that anything can deviate from his knowledge. He's more than just an observer, his power of omniscience actually writes destiny. Thus, there is no free will thank to his omniscience.

Again, you cannot have omniscience and free will. The two cannot possibly coexist alongside each other.



posted on May, 21 2015 @ 08:28 AM
link   

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: infolurker

I understand the concept you're conveying, however, it does not apply to how god functions (if he is in indeed all knowing). See, in your example, the player (or us) who is watching the recordings doesn't have absolute knowledge about everything within the game. God does have this knowledge. He knows what every player is going to do, he knows exactly what will occur, he knows all the outcomes. The viewer in your concept does not know any of these things because he is not omniscient. He is just watching the screen.

So the problem still is evident. If god knows everything about everything, then there is no possible way that anything can deviate from his knowledge. He's more than just an observer, his power of omniscience actually writes destiny. Thus, there is no free will thank to his omniscience.

Again, you cannot have omniscience and free will. The two cannot possibly coexist alongside each other.


The greatest display of power can sometimes be in the restraint of displaying power.

Do you have enough knowledge now to know whether or not your action today will cause an effect ten years from now? 100 years from now?

Do you restrain yourself today when you could act today?

Every choice we make and act upon has a consequence, whether good or bad. And non action also has a consequence. You are literally changing history with every action you take. And if you have that power yourself, then imagine what would happen if you had omniscience.

Right now, think about it, YOU will post a comment that has never been posted before and by the time we read it, it will be history. You have changed history.

And perhaps in your post, you might say something that will click in someone's mind and they change some belief. You then have changed not only history, but the future. Does that make you a chess player?



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 09:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: LongishLongo
If sin is a biproduct of freewill, and there's no sin in heaven... then wouldn't that mean you don't have freewill in heaven?


Logic!


...or perhaps you still have free will in heaven but you are so overwhelming affirmed by the truth and presence of God that all desire to sin is eliminated.

Logic!




top topics



 
4
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join