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sin is a biproduct of freewill, right?

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posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:31 AM
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If sin is a biproduct of freewill, and there's no sin in heaven... then wouldn't that mean you don't have freewill in heaven?


Logic!




posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:38 AM
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a reply to: LongishLongo
Well logically you would be right but you can't use logic when addressing religion.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:42 AM
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So you can't use logic to debate religion? Lol
a reply to: PeachesNCream



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:45 AM
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a reply to: LongishLongo
Can you use logic to debate unicorns?

Add: Religion is based on faith not logic.
edit on 20-5-2015 by PeachesNCream because: added



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:47 AM
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I think you're missing the point lol I'm clearly an atheist

a reply to: PeachesNCream



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:48 AM
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originally posted by: LongishLongo
If sin is a biproduct of freewill, and there's no sin in heaven... then wouldn't that mean you don't have freewill in heaven?


Logic!


Well I typed 'Is there free will in heaven' into Google and you are not alone in your quest.

69,400,000 hits... Here have a look-see: Google Hits



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:55 AM
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I'm still not sold on the whole "faith" thing.
The way I see it, you either know, or you don't.
The rest is all "maybe."
If it does turn out that there is Heaven and a God after I die, I will have some serious complaints I would like to address.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 12:58 AM
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a reply to: skunkape23
If there is a heaven would you want to be a part of it? I would miss my ol buddy jack daniels.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 01:06 AM
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a reply to: LongishLongo

False, because it was you who chose to use your free-will to go to Heaven by following God.
edit on 20-5-2015 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 01:13 AM
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originally posted by: PeachesNCream
a reply to: skunkape23
If there is a heaven would you want to be a part of it? I would miss my ol buddy jack daniels.

If there is no good whiskey and I don't get to see my old dogs again, I am not even interested.
Send me to Hell. That's where the good music is.
Good God I hate Christian music.
I prefer the Hindu tunes over that crap.
edit on 20-5-2015 by skunkape23 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 01:34 AM
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a reply to: LongishLongo

Unfortunately it doesn't logically follow. Look again.

Regards.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 01:36 AM
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a reply to: LongishLongo

Perhaps "heaven" is filled with what is considered sin here, but not there?




posted on May, 20 2015 @ 02:12 AM
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originally posted by: PeachesNCream
a reply to: LongishLongo
Well logically you would be right but you can't use logic when addressing religion.


I 100% agree! Religion is completely and utterly illogical.

To further your question. (and I hate to be a broken record, but....) If god knows all your decisions, and he is all knowing and absolute with his power, then there is no possible way you could choose something he didn't already know you were going to choose. There for, if you are bound by God's Omniscience, then choice is just an illusion. There is no free will to begin with.

Which means there sure as hell isn't any free will in heaven.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 04:53 AM
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So basically you're an atheist who's asking this to try to stump believers? I'm going to assume you're talking about Christianity, because your scenario doesn't fit Islam. We definitely believe in "free will", but our concept of "free will" deals with the freedom to accept or reject God, which humans & Jinn have.

In Islam, we believe the only reason for life is to choose whether to accept God or to reject Him. And if we choose to accept Him, then we must strive to improve our standings with Him so we can get into Heaven. We believe Shaytan, "the Devil", is a Jinn & that he is the root of human evil & sin. His main power is the power of suggestion & he tempts humans to sin. He was allowed to continue living until Judgment Day and to test humans because any humans who would follow his temptations aren't worthy of Heaven. So on Judgment Day he will be sentenced to Hell, as will any that follow his corruptions (Sura 7, lines 11 through 27 tells the story
).

That leads to the scenario in your OP. Yes, we believe we will have "free will" in Heaven. We will be allowed to make decisions & blah blah blah. But our desires to sin & for negativity simply won't exist because those aren't ours in the first place. I guess you'd think of it as we'd be in an enlightened state, without the worldly desires for sinning or corruption.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 07:28 AM
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originally posted by: LongishLongo
If sin is a biproduct of freewill, and there's no sin in heaven... then wouldn't that mean you don't have freewill in heaven?


Logic!


If sin is a "byproduct" of free will....

Can I ask this, who has free will? Small children do not have free will. People locked up in prison do not have free will. People who are married have less free will. Even on ATS you do not have total free will because you still have to follow the T&C, so free will is limited. And rightly so.

When you say free will, exactly what do you mean? There is no total free will in any society, not even in the US, because we are guaranteed only certain rights and privileges.

As society dictates to what extent you are allowed to exercise your free will, then logically I would assume that even in an atheist society, free will is still regulated.

Explain what you mean by free will. Is it total, encompassing, restrictive, abandoned?



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 07:29 AM
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originally posted by: enlightenedservant
In Islam, we believe the only reason for life is to choose whether to accept God or to reject Him. And if we choose to accept Him, then we must strive to improve our standings with Him so we can get into Heaven.


Really, that is the only reason for life? How does that fit in with people who die after only 1 day of life, or 1 hour even?


originally posted by: enlightenedservantWe believe Shaytan, "the Devil", is a Jinn & that he is the root of human evil & sin. His main power is the power of suggestion & he tempts humans to sin. He was allowed to continue living until Judgment Day and to test humans because any humans who would follow his temptations aren't worthy of Heaven. So on Judgment Day he will be sentenced to Hell, as will any that follow his corruptions

That leads to the scenario in your OP. Yes, we believe we will have "free will" in Heaven. We will be allowed to make decisions & blah blah blah. But our desires to sin & for negativity simply won't exist because those aren't ours in the first place. I guess you'd think of it as we'd be in an enlightened state, without the worldly desires for sinning or corruption.
Hey, that is pretty much the Christian view too, give it back, we were here first, you stole it from us!
Only kidding, good to know that we don't disagree on everything, there is some common ground between us. May you achieve your goal.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 07:39 AM
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a reply to: LongishLongo

Given that those who choose to do their best to live a Christian lifestyle are doing their best to live in God's way rather than our own, it would seem that we have expressed a desire to let Him dictate things as much as we can.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 07:56 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: LongishLongo

Given that those who choose to do their best to live a Christian lifestyle are doing their best to live in God's way rather than our own, it would seem that we have expressed a desire to let Him dictate things as much as we can.



I feel that I had to correct the word usage of the poster because he said biproduct, meaning two fold product. I was sure he meant byproduct.

But perhaps there can be a biproduct of free will? Philosophically speaking.

Free will means that it is not only a choice, but a choice of choice, then action. Every choice might include subchoice, and I think that is how they design video games, with codes that not only offer one choice, but two equal subchoices.

Like for instance, a Christian might be faced with this...

Suppose, hypothetically speaking, a Christian father who cares for his daughter is placed in a situation where he is forced to watch her being raped. He has several choices here...
1: He can attack the attacker, and through that kills the attacker.
2: He can call the police and wait, thereby the daughter is raped or beaten and killed.
3:He can call the police and then attack the attacker.
4:He can walk away crying.

Not all free will choices are easy nor can sin always be a byproduct.

I don't think the OP realizes that there are many gray areas that can ever be justly explained.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 08:02 AM
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originally posted by: LongishLongo
If sin is a biproduct of freewill, and there's no sin in heaven... then wouldn't that mean you don't have freewill in heaven?


Logic!


Duh. Its a dictatorship. Only one voice matters in heaven.



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 08:18 AM
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originally posted by: Cinrad

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
In Islam, we believe the only reason for life is to choose whether to accept God or to reject Him. And if we choose to accept Him, then we must strive to improve our standings with Him so we can get into Heaven.


Really, that is the only reason for life? How does that fit in with people who die after only 1 day of life, or 1 hour even?


originally posted by: enlightenedservantWe believe Shaytan, "the Devil", is a Jinn & that he is the root of human evil & sin. His main power is the power of suggestion & he tempts humans to sin. He was allowed to continue living until Judgment Day and to test humans because any humans who would follow his temptations aren't worthy of Heaven. So on Judgment Day he will be sentenced to Hell, as will any that follow his corruptions

That leads to the scenario in your OP. Yes, we believe we will have "free will" in Heaven. We will be allowed to make decisions & blah blah blah. But our desires to sin & for negativity simply won't exist because those aren't ours in the first place. I guess you'd think of it as we'd be in an enlightened state, without the worldly desires for sinning or corruption.
Hey, that is pretty much the Christian view too, give it back, we were here first, you stole it from us!
Only kidding, good to know that we don't disagree on everything, there is some common ground between us. May you achieve your goal.


Thanks & I hope you reach your goals, as well.

We're not accountable for this until we go through puberty, which is when Islamic "maturity" starts. Until then, you're not responsible & are "innocent". The Qur'an doesn't address the dead children part directly, so I don't know for sure on that. But there are a ridiculous number of rulings & interpretations that claim children go to Heaven, including the children of unbelievers (those some dispute that last part). Here's an exhaustive list. My understanding of God from the Qur'an makes me also conclude they go to Heaven since they haven't reached the maturity to understand the issue, and thus, are still in their uncorrupted form.

And you'd be surprised by how similar our religions are. We even share almost all of the same Prophets. Though for the record, we believe ours came first, not yours
The Prophet Muhammad was our final Prophet & messenger, while Adam was our first Prophet.



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