Boy shoots through window, kills friend trying to wake him

originally posted by: the owlbear

originally posted by: johnwick

originally posted by: the owlbear

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Something no one has pointed out yet, is that this is Montana. There is a deep seeded gun culture there so i'm not sure i can claim surprise that a 15 yo has his own fire arm.



reply to: Woodcarver

Excellent point. It's Montana.
Not exactly an urban hive of scum and villiany.

Why would someone be so afraid and paranoid for their life as to shoot someone from a second story window? Wouldnt the first response be to call 911 or wake others in the house (if home), while grabbing a gun?
And why aim for the head? A perfectly good shot in the air to scare someone in the dark that you are armed should suffice for most ne'er do wells in Montana unless you have a beef with the nefarious sort who REALLY mean you harm and I doubt that type would be throwing pebbles at your window to wake you up.

Because just as Joe biden learned.

That shoot in the air bs is dumb.

What goes up comes down.

Besides shoot a hole in the roof of his house?

Didn't think that out well did you?

Actually, I wouldnt have fired at all. No one can hurt me on the second floor of my house. I would call 911 and secure myself until help arrived Rather than jangle my spurs.

Breaking the window would have sufficed. And unless a neighboring house is pressed right up against the other, you can shoot in the air out of a window.

And yes, what goes up must come down. A falling bullet MIGHT leave a bruise if the conditions are perfect.

Um no, you are assuming it goes up stops and falls at terminal velocity.

If it remains ballistically sound, it can in fact kill.

This is how our artillery works, I was in cannon fire direction control.

If you don't shoot the bullet basically perfectly straight up, there is a good chance it can remain ballistically sound and be moving much faster than the 90 mph a bullet at terminal velocity would go.

As far as doing any shooting, I would have clearly identified a potential target long before brandishing a firearm.

But it wasn't me there, and we don't know the specifics about the situation other than a kid was shot by another kid.

I can't really speculate without more info.

originally posted by: roadgravel

Most normal persons would go, and either call or knock on the door, not throw pebbles at the window and wake up people.

It's kids, probably the old 'don't want the parents to know'.

Because they stole one of dads nuddy magazines, or some of his beer, hell maybe they were gonna go out in the woods and blow up some tannerite.

Kids do these things.

At least my friends and I did.

a reply to: johnwick

Yes, and nothing new or out of the ordinary. Some things never change.

originally posted by: johnwick

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
Why in the hell did a child have a gun in their room? Where were the goddam parents?

I had a loaded gun in my room since my 7th birthday.

Why so phobic of guns?

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I have never killed anyone.

Then you had some incredibly irresponsible parents.

I'm not "phobic of guns" at all. I have many guns in my house, and I myself sleep with a loaded revolver only a couple feet away. But I am a grown adult, with more years of experience with weapons than this kid has been alive. Under no circumstances would I ever even consider leaving a child access to a loaded (or unloaded) gun, and there's no way in hell they would have one in their room. That's parenting at its' worst.

originally posted by: johnwick
I can tell by your "a child shouldn't have a loaded gun period" attitude your just a antigun type.

I'm about as anti-gun as Charlton Heston, but hey, thanks for the ignorant, baseless assumption.

originally posted by: SirKonstantin
a reply to: PhoenixOD
Right?, But What about the age of the Child....if his friend was 15, how old was he AND why is he going to sleep with a loaded gun? WTF people, Parent at their Worst.....
(I think i summed up the whole issue here.lol)

I think you did sir!

NOTICE: THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED LEGAL ADVICE. I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY.
Note: Laws may have changed in other states as I haven't traveled in 15 years. Otherwise, here is some information for readers that may help in understanding the law. However, I posted much further information that some of which may not be applicable to this case.

A 15 year old, for one does not know the law concerning the use of deadly force and the times and situations that you could legally use deadly force (OBVIOUSLY). There is zero reason to shoot through a window or door (exception is if someone has a firearm pointing it at you from outside or fired shots through the same window/door as the law does not require you to be fired on before making the decision to use deadly force) for that matter without the person trying to actually enter the home. Then, you still must identify the target at all costs. There have been multitudes of people shot in their own homes by a family member shooting at a dark figure only to find out it was another family member or guest staying in the house. Also, the target must have a deadly weapon, or able to do great bodily harm due to physical size (as in 220lb 6'1" make and a frail woman) and acting in a threatening manner. One exception is Colorado where you can shoot a person for just entering your house (stranger I believe not friends and family). A case in Colorado where this ex-husband drove by his wife's boyfriends home. The ex and her boyfriend were outside. The ex-husband started vulgar obscenities at the wife and took off. The not too bright boyfriend got his car and chased after the man. The man made it home first. He left the front door ajar on purpose. He got his large caliber handgun and sat in his chair in the room facing the front door. The hotheaded boyfriend came in the house and was shot 2x knocking the man out the door and he landed on a deck, The ex-husband then walked out on the deck and fired 3 shots through the boyfriends chest which punched 3 holes through the deck. The ex-husband was not charged because Colorado has a law that you may use deadly force if any hostile actor enters your home. And apparently this is also the case on the property, unless they considered the deck to be an extension of the house. The ex husband wasn't even charged. So you see, different states have different laws that may affect your legal use of deadly force. Get to know your state laws as it is imperative you know them.

A lot of people don't know this as the Castle Doctrine. You have a right to protect life and property inside your home from an intruder. The Castle Doctrine also applies to your vehicle. You must be inside and the perpetrator must have part or all of his body inside the vehicle and posing a threat to life. For CCW holders, you may stop a Forcible Felony, and getting into your car or opening the door trying to pull you from the vehicle is considered car jacking a felony federal offense. Hence you may shoot the perpetrator. Being that you may have a gun in the home a CCW is not required.

The car is a different story because without a CCW, you are not allowed to keep a concealed weapon unless it is locked into the glove compartment. Careful though as some states clearly state you can carry a loaded firearm inside of the vehicles passenger compartment including the glove box. However, you can carry it the trunk sometimes. In Michigan (unless law has changed there) you can not carry a pistol in any vehicle period, unless you have a CCW and it is a reciprocal state with your state. For example, I had to go into the Michigan State Troop HQ when I crossed into Michigan Hunting and let them know that I had a CCW and was carrying firearms (pistols and rifles), As such, I complied with the requirement and was able to carry in the state.

If you have a CCW license you can also do the following:
Stopping a Forcible Felony is also a legitimate action provided you don't shoot them running away and the crime has been completed.
There are several considerations and some make a difference if you are a CCW license holder. This would apply to public places more than a home. Even here in Florida, we have the 'Stand Your Ground Law' which means you do not have to retreat in the case of a threat which was something you had to do prior to the law being passed. There are many nuances. When I got my CCW, the Attorney General of the Stae of Florida sent out a booklet explaining when deadly force may be used. Areas your CCW doesn't allow you to carry, i.e. government buildings, bars, sporting events, etc.

NOTICE: THIS IS NOT CONSIDERED LEGAL ADVICE. I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY.

This kid is in serious trouble as he committed a murder, and at the very least manslaughter due to this being an illegal killing. 1st Degree Premeditated murder can be charged as they can and have used before that since there was not immediate threat, he had time to realize there was no immediate threat as the window was not broken and the kid climbing into the window. It was just knocks on a window. So, he made the choice consciously to shoot through the window. That is enough to charge First Degree murder, but they may have lesser included charges to be considered by the jury.

One lat thing. If you are going to carry a weapon, consider you physical fighting ability. Many CCW holders were taken out with their own weapon. Reason being if someone decides on a physical confrontation and has not met the line where the use of deadly force is authorized, you must fight or flight and if fight is the only option, then you better know how to fight in the lines of Crav Maga or some other discipline. This is so you are not knocked down and have your weapon taken and then all bets are off. I myself have black belts if 4 different disciplines. For example, there is a method to stop a semi-automatic hand gun from firing with a simple hand hit driving the slide backwards just a 1/8 to 2/4 inch. THat allows safer taking control of the weapon. It was a special forces move and quite effective. Just remember that you never know the ability of you adversary and they come in all shapes and sizes and colors. Reading and understanding people is equally important. If you are not well versed and trained, then considering your desire to carry a weapon in public should be given great consideration. I have taken peoples hand guns and rigles before they could react many, many times when some idiot pointed their weapon at me. Make sure to close the distance or con them into closing the distance. I learned a great ruse from one of the 6 world PKA Judges in drawing an attacker right up close where he is in range for your desired attack.

a reply to: spirit_horse

Excellent job of summing up some of the legal issues relevant to this tragic case. As you stated, this kid will likely be tried for murder, and, assuming he's 15 or 16ish, may be tried as an adult.

There are some minor differences in the laws depending on the state; For instance, here in NM, your vehicle is considered to be an extension of your home, and as such, you are allowed to have a concealed weapon anywhere in the passenger compartment or on your person, without a CCP.

Thanks for the info!

If the gun belongs to the parents, then surely there's a case for them to be charged with felony murder? (Assuming this state has a felony murder law, I believe most do). I've seen cases where felony murder charges have been made on someone simply for lending a car to someone who then drove somewhere to committed a murder.

a reply to: PhoenixOD

Why was the friend out at 2:30 AM?

Is it normal for 15 year-old boys to be out at 2:30 AM and knocking and throwing pebbles at a window? I'm sorry, but the idea that a 15 year-old boy is asleep in his house, hears things thrown at his window ...that turns out to be two other teenage boys who are just "trying to wake him up".

For what purpose?

US NEWS

The two knocked on their friend's window and threw pebbles in an attempt to wake him, St. John said. "When their friend awoke, he was startled by the noise and saw faces outside the window," St. John's statement said. "He didn't know who they were and was scared." The boy grabbed a gun that was in the bedroom and fired through the window, striking Schulte in the head, the statement said. The second boy outside the window was not hurt. Police were withholding the names and ages of the shooter and the uninjured friend because they are juveniles and no arrests have been made.

OK, let's get this straight, TWO 15 year-old boys decide to LEAVE the house where they should be sleeping, go to another house to "wake up" their friend by looking into the window ...to wake him up...at 2:30 AM????

WTH were the other two doing out at 2:30 AM, knocking on anyone's window????

I'm sorry, but the boy had a gun in his room, most likely for defense. And these two yahoos think they should be out at 2:30 AM creeping up to windows where someone was asleep...to wake him up...for what purpose?

What if they had creeped up to the window of a grown person?

OK, so you all are probably going to disagree with me and keep saying the kid had no right to have a gun. Well, that is probably true, he was young and this isn't 1889. But still, what was going through the other kids' minds that they could be out creeping at 2:30 AM?

And had they done that a lot to other people?

You know, if any person had a gun while Charles Manson's Family were doing the "creepy crawl", they might have changed history, just sayin'.

Really, creeping at 2:30 AM...why? And were they hoping to wake their friend up to join them? Apparently the boy wasn't expecting them, that's why he was startled. So I wonder, were they just creeping to wake him up as a practical joke or to get him to creep other houses?

Just asking.

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Yes, that is true. Different states laws must be looked into and known to prevent your getting into trouble. For example, I travel to Michigan during hinting season. And you have to know the various laws in each state you are driving through. I did research on the laws to ensure I was leaving myself open to legal trouble. Sometimes we had to put or weapons in the capped bed of the truck to be compliant. Some states make you stop at the first State Patrol Barracks and let them know you will be traveling through or into their state with handguns and sometimes rifles. This may have changed so before any interstate trip I either call the local sheriff, or at least look at the laws regarding firearms in the state in question.

a reply to: WarminIndy

OMG, teenagers doing stuff they shouldn't be doing?!

OH THE HUMANITY!

For all we know the third kid was in on it all and planned to go out with them but things didn't go as planned when they tried to wake him up. Because I do agree you are not all there when you first wake up.
But it seems no one wants to bring that up.
How do we know the kid didn't expect them?
Or are we jumping to that conclusion.

There are few groups that I've encountered more defensive about their fetishes than gun nuts.

Some (white, obvs) kid does something terrible with a gun? Here comes a pack of defensive gun 'enthusiasts' to defend his actions and claim that all anybody who wants to offer some common sense really wants to do is take their guns away.

This thread is so 'murica.

I like guns, I think they're dandy, but there's no goddamned reason that a teenaged kid needs a loaded firearm in his bedside drawer. It's fetishistic behaviour, guns are treated as these sacred items by certain segments of American culture and as somebody outside looking is, it's hilarious. I have to think that a sensible minded person living among such people would rightfully be frightened. A gun in itself isn't a scary thing, they're quite useful in fact. They feel nice when you hold them, and they're fun to look at. But gun nuts are entirely other story. Gun nuts are scary as #.

TL;DR: I'm not scared of guns, I'm scared of people who fetishize them. A gun is a swell tool, but so is a hammer. So why isn't the hammer put on the same holy pedestal? Maybe the NRA could get on the hammer bandwagon - there was a string of attacks against women in NYC by a guy using a hammer, get Wayne LaPierre on the line. Obummer wants to take your hammers, and he might get some publicity.

a reply to: WarminIndy

It is easy to make assumptions.

Perhaps the two boys had escaped from an abusive parent and needed a place to stay out of the rain.

Do we really want to live in a country where young people are considered fair game, just because they are out after midnight? What is this, The Purge?

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: WarminIndy

OMG, teenagers doing stuff they shouldn't be doing?!

OH THE HUMANITY!

You mean like having a gun and shooting his friend?

OMG, teenagers doing stuff they shouldn't be doing?!
OH THE HUMANITY!

You mean like that?

(see, sounds kind of ridiculous with that argument, doesn't it?)

originally posted by: Monger
There are few groups that I've encountered more defensive about their fetishes than gun nuts.

Some (white, obvs) kid does something terrible with a gun? Here comes a pack of defensive gun 'enthusiasts' to defend his actions and claim that all anybody who wants to offer some common sense really wants to do is take their guns away.

This thread is so 'murica.

I like guns, I think they're dandy, but there's no goddamned reason that a teenaged kid needs a loaded firearm in his bedside drawer. It's fetishistic behaviour, guns are treated as these sacred items by certain segments of American culture and as somebody outside looking is, it's hilarious. I have to think that a sensible minded person living among such people would rightfully be frightened. A gun in itself isn't a scary thing, they're quite useful in fact. They feel nice when you hold them, and they're fun to look at. But gun nuts are entirely other story. Gun nuts are scary as #.

TL;DR: I'm not scared of guns, I'm scared of people who fetishize them. A gun is a swell tool, but so is a hammer. So why isn't the hammer put on the same holy pedestal? Maybe the NRA could get on the hammer bandwagon - there was a string of attacks against women in NYC by a guy using a hammer, get Wayne LaPierre on the line. Obummer wants to take your hammers, and he might get some publicity.

Actually several of us "gun nuts" have pointed out that the kid and his parents were in the wrong. Go ahead and keep blindly generalizing though.

originally posted by: mithrawept
a reply to: WarminIndy

It is easy to make assumptions.

Perhaps the two boys had escaped from an abusive parent and needed a place to stay out of the rain.

Do we really want to live in a country where young people are considered fair game, just because they are out after midnight? What is this, The Purge?

Yes, and you guys have made assumptions all the way through the whole thread.

My goodness, "the boy must have neglectful parents"...see, that's an assumption.

Oh, and see, the boys creeping weren't game....the other boy wasn't preying on them.

They were creeping and they were shot, now whose parents were more neglectful?

You have assumed a lot, but you failed to do one thing, look at the whole big picture and think about how this tragedy could have been prevented.

The two boys, yahoos, were out creeping in the middle of the night. That should be enough to cause you to think about what kind of boys these were, without assumption.

Question everything. Don't just kneejerk and say the kid had neglectful parents, we don't know why the kid had a gun and if these other kids were his friends, then they knew he had a gun. Generally if a friend is creeping in the night to wake you up, they feel pretty comfortable about knowing things about you.

a reply to: NavyDoc

It's strange, on one hand there are people on this thread who are saying "boys will be boys", to defend the kids who were creeping in the middle of the night.

But on the other hand say "boys can't be boys" if they are doing what boys do.

If teenage boys are going to do stupid stuff, then the creeping up to the window was just plain stupid.

Responsible kids aren't creeping at 2:30 AM, and I am sure that if you are a parent of boys, you just wouldn't let them go out creeping at 2:30 AM.

Responsible parents raise responsible kids.

They could not have been up to doing charity work at 2:30 AM or delivering newspapers that early.

Does anyone really think it is rare that teenagers sneak out of their house in the middle of the night?

originally posted by: roadgravel
Does anyone really think it is rare that teenagers sneak out of their house in the middle of the night?

Do they sneak out of the house to go wash their neighbor's car or plant petunias by the moonlight?

Or do they do things like toilet paper houses (illegal trespassing and destruction of property)?

Or do they go out cow tipping (illegal trespassing and cruelty to animals)?

Or do they go out tagging the school with graffiti (illegal trespassing and destruction and defacing public property)?

When is it acceptable for teenagers to be out at night like that? Because the teenager thinks so?

a reply to: WarminIndy

No I am clearly talking about sneaking out at night.

Shooting and killing your friend is not normal everyday teenager activities.

Sneaking out at the wee hours of the night is very much so.

a reply to: NavyDoc

I don't know that I'd classify you as a gun nut, using my personal definition. Just because one owns multiple guns, are a member of the NRA and really, really like said guns doesn't necessarily make one a gun nut in my book. There's a certain unhinged quality that comes with that distinction that I've never seen in your posts.

For the record, I noted and starred your posts as I was reading through the thread. I was really only referring to a few individuals, I'll admit that I could have been clearer. I am often guilty of making sweeping generalizations and aim to keep that tendency in check, but it gets the best of me from time to time.