How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: WarminIndy

I try to find links that are not Christian, just to make it a fair discussion. If I linked to sites that are Christian then people would say I was only looking at one side of the argument.

The point I am trying to make is this, some people are really bad and have made life hell on earth for some. Sometimes I wish

That's what WakeUpBeer means by trying to have it both ways. That law of reciprocity states that people here and now get what's coming to them. And it's obvious to you that that isn't happening.

There is a Psalm entitled "Why do the wicked prosper?" which makes it seem that justice happens in the king's court. But that doesn't happen either.

So Christianity has "the last judgment" that's supposed to put all to right. So if there is no hell as punishment, then justice is never dealt out equitably.

I would rather the justice come in this life. I don't know about purgatory, maybe it is there, maybe not. I just don't know.

Maybe, just maybe, the justice comes when the hurt are made better in heaven while the wicked are faced with watching God wipe the tears away from the ones they hurt?

I think to make them see the damage they did, with the full realization of what they did, maybe that's the torment.

The Tell-Tale Heart, by Edgar Allen Poe

TRUE! - nervous - very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad? The disease had sharpened my senses - not destroyed - not dulled them. Above all was the sense of hearing acute. I heard all things in the heaven and in the earth. I heard many things in hell. How, then, am I mad? Hearken! and observe how healthily - how calmly I can tell you the whole story.

Maybe that's it?

a reply to: WarminIndy

I would rather the justice come in this life. I don't know about purgatory, maybe it is there, maybe not. I just don't know.

Your religion includes a heaven and a resurrection. My religion does not include a "self-aware, self-remembering" resurrection. I will link again to a post on another thread in the Philosophy and Metaphysics forum.

Eternal Life, the Cosmos and Sacrifice

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: WarminIndy

I would rather the justice come in this life. I don't know about purgatory, maybe it is there, maybe not. I just don't know.

Your religion includes a heaven and a resurrection. My religion does not include a "self-aware, self-remembering" resurrection. I will link again to a post on another thread in the Philosophy and Metaphysics forum.

Eternal Life, the Cosmos and Sacrifice

I've heard of Solipsism.

If I can try to see what your philosophy is, and please correct me if I am wrong, life is just continual and we as individuals flow in and out of the source of life at various time, sometimes being human and sometimes being inanimate, sometimes being animate, sometimes being other forms?

To you, life is like stream of consciousness?

If I am understanding this, Life is part of the Great Stream of Consciousness Collective Mind?

I think that is what you are saying, please help me understand that if I am wrong.

a reply to: WarminIndy

life is just continual and we as individuals flow in and out of the source of life at various time, sometimes being human and sometimes being inanimate, sometimes being animate, sometimes being other forms?

Our atoms are dispersed and rearranged. Our life, which is not our own goes to the new individual life. The new individual is not the same individual as the old. Life continues, not self consciousness.

I don't know if this is the same as what people think of as reincarnation or not.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Fair enough. I know some people complain about Christian sources. I'm not too annoyed with them, personally. A site can be good or bad regardless. I generally try to read any links shared with me, given I have enough time. Even though I am pretty much set on my views of religion (particularly Christianity since it's what I am most familiar with) I don't mind trying to see things from my old perspective as a Christian. Even though I will not agree on the larger picture and argue against it. I was a little harsh to my response of that particular site though, because it seemed less about information and more about exaggeration and money making.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Do you expect Christianity to be one single dogma?

On one hand yes, on the other no. More so no because of the shear volume of individuals and interpretations etc. I would expect there to be consensus on some of the key points though. Especially if the texts are divinely inspired. I guess my complaint has less to do with people interpreting the Bible differently, and more about the Bible being so open to interpretation. If that makes sense.

When you were a Christian, I am sure that you were in one particular denomination and then you saw other Christians with different dogmas, and did it confuse you as to why they weren't following yours?

Actually, it wasn't until I was older and already in a lukewarm state on the verge of agnosticism/atheism that I even realized their were different dogmas. Besides Catholicism and Mormonism. I knew there were denominations but had no idea their teachings were different on this or that point. I though that everybody was about a personal relationship with Jesus. Accepting they were a sinner that needed the Lord in their life to wash their sins away so they could be white as snow. The body was a temple for the Lord. The father, the Son, and the Holy spirit. I also thought Christians didn't do anything harmful for their bodies like smoke cigarettes, Though that probably had more to do with the mixture of church and anti drug/smoking media my parents made me watch as a child. Not sure how Baptist my Baptist church was but that's what we called it.

That would be pretty dogmatic in itself.

Heresies are called heresies by the other side. Does that mean they are heresies?

To claim another has heresy is dogmatic and so is it dogmatism to leave because of perceived heresies. Inconsistencies arise not because of inconsistency, but dogmatism.

Heresy is in the eye of the beholder? I will more or less agree with you here.

It is dogmatism to say that all Christians must observe Christmas on December 25, when that is only from the Roman Catholicism calendar, even though Eastern Orthodox, Byzantine, Coptic, Ethiopian and Greek Orthodox has never celebrated December 25, and yet they are as old as Roman Catholicism, they began at the same time.

That is a tradition, nothing more.

Well it's dogma in the sense that's when all (or most I guess) Christians celebrate the birth of Christ. It's tradition in the sense they've been doing it for hundreds of years. And it's blasphemous because it's not Biblical as its roots aren't Christian, but more or less Pagan.

Quakers were considered heretics, the Lollards were considered heretics, but who was calling them heretics? Christianity is not one single dogma and has never been and can never be. To assume such is really ignorance of the history of Christianity that is more than just Roman Catholicism.

I'm not really sure what to say. On one hand I agree with you. On the other, I don't. I would say it's mostly Christians calling other Christians heretics. I realize that because of the shear number of people who are Christian, each bringing their own views and interpretations, there are going to be differences. But I'd think there would be some consistent, never changing dogma on key points. For example; faith with or without works, the trinity, once saved always saved or salvation can be lost, OT laws meant for Christians to follow today or not. Those kinds of things. The things that are ultimately vital to whether or not somebody actually makes it into heaven or not.

Did you leave because not all Christians followed the traditions of your own denomination?

Just asking, not criticizing.

Np. As I mentioned earlier in this post, I was naive to the fact there even were other types of Christians for a long time. The way I always looked at it was everyone was walking with the Lord (even if they didn't know he was there with them - footprints in the sand type stuff if you know that poster). So no, that wasn't a reason why I left. There were many reasons why, but I won't go over them all.

I am not trying to insult anyone's intelligence here, or sound like I know it all. My path to atheism wasn't a quick one. All my life I've had general interest in things like history and mythology. One of the things I did as a Christian was seek out evidence for stuff in the Bible. Not to prove it or anything. Just because I loved that stuff and reading about it would be cool, and fun to think about. Eventually I discovered the Bible didn't have a lot to go on to back it up, especially if taken literally. Becoming more critical I started finding the inconsistencies and other issues I've mentioned to you before

Eventually it became clear to me that in no way could the Bible have been the inerrant, divinely inspired words of a God. Some errors of course, are meaningless, easily chalked up to a tired scribe making the equivalent of a typo. Others.. not so much. Men authored that book. I have no doubt some truly believed but I also know some had true agendas.

Anyway this post is getting pretty long and I'm sure you don't want to hear me explain every little detail about what made me choose to be an atheist.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

To Make Believing ...

What is time?
In this vast, beautiful universe it knows not time. It just knows it 'IS NOW' as it is and as far as it knows always was. But then it wondered one day, "What if I was not as I am now but became what I am from something different?

Was there a time when I was not as I believe I am now BUT I was sure just a moment ago just being as I am I always have been.... BUT NOW I'm not sure anymore! How did that just happen! And WHY? And HOW?

Now I must search for a time when I was not so so I will know the answer. And if I find that I was different at another time, when was that when I have no recollection of another time in the space I am in now. And now I can't be as I am without knowing because now I believe I may have been different.

Then how will I know what I believe I am made of look now when I find it and know it is still me then?
When I do, will it change me and how I thought I always was make believe that I was then as I am now something different?

So, then...if I am now truly different, did I believe the same way then as I do now that I believe I would be looking for an answer and find another version of myself? But how long did I stay that way? Or am I that other version of myself now looking ahead and finding myself changed looking behind?

Should I believe both and still believe that time does not exist in
our present existence as I know it until now is understood?

That could go on forever.

a reply to: Rex282

Yes. Or nothing.

Choose a model. Stick to it if it serves you, but don't force it upon others. Talk about it freely, ask questions, but never make the mistake of thinking that your model is superiour to that of others. We simply don't know enough yet.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: WarminIndy

life is just continual and we as individuals flow in and out of the source of life at various time, sometimes being human and sometimes being inanimate, sometimes being animate, sometimes being other forms?

Our atoms are dispersed and rearranged. Our life, which is not our own goes to the new individual life. The new individual is not the same individual as the old. Life continues, not self consciousness.

I don't know if this is the same as what people think of as reincarnation or not.

I don't know if it is. Maybe some people who believe in reincarnation can answer that one.

Sorry to be lagging in posting, I am posting between sleeping. It's better than just looking at my dog who never talks back.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

All very interesting.

Not all people are divinely inspired, that is why they have others interpret it. But I have come to discover that the Bible is really not just straight forward in presentation, it has many hidden meanings, some double meanings and many idioms that people who read in English aren't aware of.

For instance, the idiom "give up the ghost" is fairly old, it means "to die". Some English readers, especially Americans, aren't aware of the language in which the KJV was transliterated. The KJV was translated and transliterated from the earlier Latin Vulgate, Bishop's Bible, the Wycliffe Bible and the Geneva Bible.

The reason that people assume there are so many errors is because the Roman Catholic church said the KJV was in error. It was politically motivated. And some people actually think that King James sat and translated it himself.......

All of the Bibles today are someone's interpretation. But here is an example of transliterations and I could not say it is in error,

Hawaiian Pidgin

Luke 23:46 Jesus wen yell real loud. He say, “Fadda, I give you my spirit.” Wen he say dat, he mahke.

King James

Luke 23: 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

I think the Hawaiian Pidgin is colorful and it isn't KJV, but still conveys the same meaning even if it doesn't say the exact same words.

This one, Revised Catholic Standard Version says this...

Luke 23: 46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Not as colorful, a little bland, still conveys same meaning. I think maybe you have been exposed to more KJV proponents and critics of the KJV. I tend to use the KJV because I am more familiar with it and I have heard many people say they can't understand the Shakespearian English and they can't understand Shakespeare either.

You and I just came to different understandings. My first degree was in History and I have read much about other mythologies, that really right now I am not quite seeing them as mythologies. I think there is truth in that as well.

There is no doubt that in early Christianity there were influences from paganism, however, one has to consider also that in early Europe, paganism was broad and diverse as well. People ASSUME that the Easter Bunny is Christian, but we all know that it has nothing to do with Christianity, but it is a strange thing, European Christians have always tried to meld religious views, that is why they still celebrate Walpurgisnacht

I don't think you have heard me before say exactly what my religious views are, I am not the typical Fundie...I am Pentequakemystic. I just made that up. Or I am Mystical Pentequake. Yes, that's what I am going to call it.

Anyway, I understand where you are coming from and it is ok with me. No one can force you to believe and no one can judge you for not believing, that isn't our job. Our job is to love you regardless.

originally posted by: Thought Provoker
First commandment: love God as much as you can ("with all your heart," etc). Second commandment: love everyone as much as you can ("like you love yourself"). Aren't those basically the same thing? Doesn't "everyone" include God? I've always found it curious how people miss that

The first commandment definitely does not say "as much as you can". Jesus did not leave this up for interpretation nor revision. As you mention parenthetically, he said "with all your heart" etc. There is a huge difference here. Your interpretation waters down his commandment and leaves the degree of love required in question. Jesus' actual commandment allows no such letting of his followers off the hook - as he never assumed that his followers were separate from God and so one could inherently love God without limits (not just "as much as you can").

No separate "you" can love God! Only when there is release of the separate "you" into real communion with the Divine, can such love be the case - and then it is God's love, not the individual's. On this basis loving one's neighbor as oneself is then possible - because one realizes everyone is appearing non-separately in God.

The second commandment also does not say "as much as you can", for the same reasons. And if Jesus wanted to include God with "everyone", why even have two commandments?

But clearly Jesus said to love God completely first and foremost. This is key - until we love the Divine so fully that we go beyond our selfishness, all other acts will tend to be motivated by whatever our own self-interests dictate.

Of course, I am not advocating inaction, nor saying good and kind acts should not be done for others - but that they are "colored" by our own motivations if we do not commune with God always and altogether, and thereby transcend our selfishness. For God is the Unity that we all arise in and are not separate from, except most miss this for many reasons. Jesus came to awaken people to their inherent Unity, their non-separation from God, in this life and eternally.

This message is what I feel Jesus spoke of, and what should be communicated by Christians - not the "believe or else" threats that really have nothing to do with love.

originally posted by: bb23108

originally posted by: Thought Provoker
First commandment: love God as much as you can ("with all your heart," etc). Second commandment: love everyone as much as you can ("like you love yourself"). Aren't those basically the same thing? Doesn't "everyone" include God? I've always found it curious how people miss that

The first commandment definitely does not say "as much as you can". Jesus did not leave this up for interpretation nor revision. As you mention parenthetically, he said "with all your heart" etc. There is a huge difference here. Your interpretation waters down his commandment and leaves the degree of love required in question. Jesus' actual commandment allows no such letting of his followers off the hook - as he never assumed that his followers were separate from God and so one could inherently love God without limits (not just "as much as you can").

No separate "you" can love God! Only when there is release of the separate "you" into real communion with the Divine, can such love be the case - and then it is God's love, not the individual's. On this basis loving one's neighbor as oneself is then possible - because one realizes everyone is appearing non-separately in God.

The second commandment also does not say "as much as you can", for the same reasons. And if Jesus wanted to include God with "everyone", why even have two commandments?

But clearly Jesus said to love God completely first and foremost. This is key - until we love the Divine so fully that we go beyond our selfishness, all other acts will tend to be motivated by whatever our own self-interests dictate.

Of course, I am not advocating inaction, nor saying good and kind acts should not be done for others - but that they are "colored" by our own motivations if we do not commune with God always and altogether, and thereby transcend our selfishness. For God is the Unity that we all arise in and are not separate from, except most miss this for many reasons. Jesus came to awaken people to their inherent Unity, their non-separation from God, in this life and eternally.

This message is what I feel Jesus spoke of, and what should be communicated by Christians - not the "believe or else" threats that really have nothing to do with love.

That makes very good sense.

But clearly Jesus said to love God completely first and foremost. This is key - until we love the Divine so fully that we go beyond our selfishness, all other acts will tend to be motivated by whatever our own self-interests dictate.

That is why I think also.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

We simply don't know enough yet.

Thank you. I ended up taking migraine strength analgesic after thinking about that.

There are problems with using particle physics as a model.

1) It takes a physicist to understand why the results fall within a range of probability rather than predictability.

2) So people must take someone else's word for it.

3) Even within the field there are four different interpretations ( according to Wikipedia ).

a reply to: Involutionist

Limited thinking . . . You are not God, you are a being made in the image of God named Man.
Man and God have a degree of separation whereby seeking to know God and to be like God.
To learn through "The Knowledge of Good and Evil" life we are living, having THAT 'knowledge' is to be like him.
Having the understanding and asking for Wisdom, the more we know GOD.

God is Good ... Even Jesus asked "Why do you call me good?"... Stating, ONLY the Father is!

Read the Book of Job...Did you create the universe, divide the waters, NO !!!!

If we were God, we would be considered one's of Destruction and Arrogance. GOD, The Almighty, The Most High, Our Creator and Father, made the Earth & left for man to tend to it. Thus far this 'MANGODADAM' brought extinction to many of God's creatures, forests, resources, ...etc.

How can you say that when we are still struggling with the Cause & Effect of your dominance in a false belief that "I am God of my own domain".

a reply to: WarminIndy

I don't know if it is. Maybe some people who believe in reincarnation can answer that one.

Sorry to be lagging in posting, I am posting between sleeping. It's better than just looking at my dog who never talks back.

Is your dog ceramic? I was only awake posting because my cat was talking about staying outside instead of coming in. Today, I'm keeping the window open.

I'll probably have to re-think the whole life thing. Jesus was talking about multiplication of life. I was watching a movie that showed cell multiplication. It got me to thinking that life is not a fixed quantity. Reincarnation seems out.

Some people try to have reincarnation and resurrection in their religion. That would lead to questions such as what the Sadducees asked Jesus, "So in the age to come, which woman will he be married to?" If reincarnation posits that a soul goes from one life to the next, then which of the 47 lives will the soul be in in the age to come?"

This points out why my religion is too lame to go preaching to people. Every time I think that I have it down, it falls apart. Then I'm left apologizing for misleading people.

a reply to: FreshTM

Wow, that was really intense. Thanks for your post.


And welcome to ATS

a reply to: WarminIndy

Mystical Pentequake. Yes, that's what I am going to call it.

Anyway, I understand where you are coming from and it is ok with me. No one can force you to believe and no one can judge you for not believing, that isn't our job. Our job is to love you regardless.

I LIKE it!

If you ever start your own church, can you add me to the mailing list?

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: ForteanOrg

We simply don't know enough yet.

Thank you. I ended up taking migraine strength analgesic after thinking about that.

There are problems with using particle physics as a model.

1) It takes a physicist to understand why the results fall within a range of probability rather than predictability.

2) So people must take someone else's word for it.

3) Even within the field there are four different interpretations ( according to Wikipedia ).

I would like your opinion on this.

The day before I was born, a black snake crawled across my mom's left foot, the next day when I was born my entire left foot and leg was black. Then as I was growing, the back of my left leg had a vein that stuck out several inches that actually looked like a snake, so I didn't wear shorts when I was young.

Even before I was born my dad had a dream that green arms came out of the ground to take me from my mom's womb. He never told me that until I was about 30 years-old and telling him about a dream I had when I was about 8 years-old when I dreamed green hands had come from the ground to grab my legs, I kicked them away and escaped.

But as a child and even now, I am natural when it comes to psychic phenomenon. I do nothing to develop or advance it. People tend to think I am crazy or make it up until I demonstrate it to them.

No, I don't read tarot or tell them about dead relatives, I don't ask them endless questions.

I cannot explain why it is so, why I have been able to just say things that seem so random, such as to one fellow who sat looking at me and I said "So, your grandparents gave you a 3 Dog Night 8 track, did you enjoy it?" And then he said to me "See, you aren't really psychic because you didn't tell me they gave it to me for my eighth birthday".

Well, first I hadn't claimed to be psychic and second I had never met the man or his grandparents before. But I picked out of all the randomness in his whole life, one little insignificant detail.

So could it be that for whatever reason, the atoms of the snake were absorbed into me?

a reply to: Thought Provoker

You contradicted yourself in the first two paragraphs:

If at any time in the future you become a believer, you already are one now... you just haven't discovered it yet. Something will happen, some event that makes you think, or changes your viewpoint on something, and it'll all just click, and you'll very nearly become a different person.

This says that it will "just happen" if I'm "chosen."

A little about myself...I have been a compassionate, empathetic (even to my own detriment) person all of my life.
I'd be this way whether or not I'd ever even heard of "God" or "Jesus" or been introduced to "The Bible." It is just WHO I AM. I am a born helper. I care about the pain of others, and the pain of animals, and the forests, and the seas.....I care.

So, I feel okay on that level, but - what if nothing happens and it doesn't just "click"?....you imply that I have no control over whether it happens or not, that it is an event I can't refuse, and wouldn't want to. That's not a choice -that's something being done TO me, not OF me.

Then, you say:

Yes, I realize that what I'm saying sounds like you have absolutely no control over whether you end up a believer,

Right, because that's what you just said....glad you are aware of that.

but your choices are the only thing that matter. You have 100% of that control, everyone does.

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways. Either I will "have it happen" and have no choice in the matter, or I have to "choose".
And then you leave this "disclaimer".

Remember that truly having the belief that Jesus was God made into man so he could make a bridge for everyone he deems worthy to join him in the afterlife after becoming the only human ever to die without sin will get you into Heaven.

So I don't truly believe it. And I may get in an accident this very day and it will be "forever too late"....right?

It's the only thing that will get you in, that belief.

I wholeheartedly disagree. It might happen, it might not. But I am still who I am, and if your Jesus has such a convoluted method of "choosing" who "gets in", regardless of whether they were the nicest, most generous and compassionate, humble and selfless person ever - without "sin" (as you see it), but they die without believing this Jesus stuff - they will burn?

THAT, my friend, is coercion. It's a game where only "Jesus" knows the rules and only people who vote for him will win.

I don't believe that, and I never will.

Let's say we make an appointment to meet up after death. Will you be surprised that I would be able to do that? I bet you would.

I'm going to stay who I am, and not bother about your exclusive mind games. I know who I am, I know what I believe, and I know that I am an acceptable soul.

So, yeah - what you say doesn't bother me, except that you might convince others of this nonsense. THAT is what bothers me. My OP was "if this is what I have to do, how do I do it when I can't"? Just like if the only way to get to heaven is to be able to lift a bus with one hand, and then swim across the Atlantic Ocean with it........well, I'm doomed.

Will I one day just wake up and be able to swim across the Atlantic Ocean holding a bus aloft? Of course not.

I think my soul is sound, gentle, kind, and gaining wisdom. No amount of your hell-fire threats and "you can't force it, but... you have to choose for it to be forced" will sway me. It is nonsense.

But, thanks for trying. It's people who talk like you that scare others. In my opinion.

I guess you mean it sincerely. Or you wouldn't have typed it.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: WarminIndy

I don't know if it is. Maybe some people who believe in reincarnation can answer that one.

Sorry to be lagging in posting, I am posting between sleeping. It's better than just looking at my dog who never talks back.

Is your dog ceramic? I was only awake posting because my cat was talking about staying outside instead of coming in. Today, I'm keeping the window open.

I'll probably have to re-think the whole life thing. Jesus was talking about multiplication of life. I was watching a movie that showed cell multiplication. It got me to thinking that life is not a fixed quantity. Reincarnation seems out.

Some people try to have reincarnation and resurrection in their religion. That would lead to questions such as what the Sadducees asked Jesus, "So in the age to come, which woman will he be married to?" If reincarnation posits that a soul goes from one life to the next, then which of the 47 lives will the soul be in in the age to come?"

This points out why my religion is too lame to go preaching to people. Every time I think that I have it down, it falls apart. Then I'm left apologizing for misleading people.

My dog is alive and breathing...lol.

Who have you mislead? We are always reminded of Quantum Physics, it is a new study.

Have you seen Chuck Missler? He talks a lot about it.



Sometimes he says things that are very deep for me. I once heard someone say that we have so much empty space that we are less real than a block of wood. I thought that is very interesting.

Chuck Missler is a Christian, but talks about things that aren't found in Orthodox Christianity.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: WarminIndy

Mystical Pentequake. Yes, that's what I am going to call it.

Anyway, I understand where you are coming from and it is ok with me. No one can force you to believe and no one can judge you for not believing, that isn't our job. Our job is to love you regardless.

I LIKE it!

If you ever start your own church, can you add me to the mailing list?

Oh, I would have to get the whole 501(c) tax exemption. Then I would have to make sure I am legal in all 50 states and then I would have to have some sort of administrative board and because I don't have money and I'm not inclined to ask for money, then I wouldn't have money for mailing lists.

And besides, I am opposed to paper waste, so I wouldn't be mailing anything.

That's too much work for me, but if I ever do, then sure, I will send you mail.