Serious Question: Why are so Many People Afraid/Unaccepting of Transgender People?

a reply to: honested3

I will never understand why someone would treat somebody a certain way or harbour ill-feelings towards another for superficial reasons. Treat people based on the content of their character.

I'm heterosexual and I will never understand your struggle. I don't care what somebody does with their body or their sex lives behind closed doors or their reasons for doing things. None of my business.

When I was a child I witnessed a man shoot another man right in the middle of his face because of bigotry. I have seen what hate can do...

You seem like a very kindhearted person. I wish you a very good life my friend. You deserve it!

a reply to: snowen20

I don't think it's either. I'm talking about a more fundamental difference than just being fat or thin. Gender identity is such an integral part of who we are, but we don't realize it when the body matches up with what's in our head. We think there is no gender identity - we just "are who we are". It's when it doesn't match up that a person realizes that there is such a thing as gender identity.

We are still learning about gender identity in the science world. There are some theories that it is neurobiological, and that something can happen during fetus development that can affect gender identity in the brain where it is different than the sex of the body.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Boadicea

No hostility.

Okay. I apologize if I took your suggestion the wrong way.

You've just mentioned more than once all the bad that has happened to you as a woman - no good experiences.

Yeah, I've had a rough time of it as a woman. The OB-Gyn who did my hysterectomy told me that I'd been pretty much PMSing 24/7 since my first period. But we all have our crosses to bear. That's just mine. I assume that if I'd been born into a male body that I would have just had different troubles.

About the only good thing I can say about being a woman is that I loved being pregnant and breastfeeding -- the only time my out-of-control hormones made me feel happy! I can't think of anything else that makes me happy that cannot be equally true for a man... okay... well... one thing... or more like a multiple thing... but I can't say it any more delicately on a public forum! (I'm blushing now. I guess I do have some modesty. Who woulda thunk it???)

As for my long legs... no complaints. They've actually served me quite well. I can reach every shelf in my kitchen! And thanks to them I kicked those boys' butts on the basketball court!!!

If you feel the same inside, what's the difference whether you have a penis and chest hair or not?

That's just it! I don't know what the difference is because I've never had a penis and chest hair!!! I can't know what I don't know, right?

a reply to: kaylaluv

So what is it to be male or female?
I get when I look in the mirror I see I need to shave my face, or I have broad shoulders but so what?
I had body dysmorphia for a long time, it lead me into becoming a fitness model in the hopes that "if only I could have the perfect body" That would change everything.....It didn't.

It was a mental illness on my part, I learned that I am what I am and I will never be more genetically, I am just here.
Someone with that illness will always see themselves as being in the wrong body, shape or form, until they learn to accept that's how it is. I am just wanting to know how this is different with transgender types who also feel on a base level that they are wrong, that they are gender wrong?

On one hand you have a group of people who do not feel nor see themselves as correct, they have always felt like something is not right about them and they want to fix it and want people to accept them for what they feel they should be.

Then you have transgender who do not feel nor see themselves as correct, they have always felt like something is not right about them and they want to fix it and want people to accept them for what they feel they should be.

I personally feel its nothing more than a word game and semantics. People moving a goal post here or there in order to make their situation better for themselves. (Which is understandable to a degree)

But at the end of the day it is what it is.

Your take?

a reply to: Boadicea

Okay, but isn't it interesting that you took it as an insult when I suggested a man's body for you. I'm just wondering why...
I honestly thought you would agree with me and say that you wouldn't mind giving it a try (due to the hard time your female body gave you). But you perceived having a man's body as an insult. See, I think you have a gender identity as a woman - you just don't realize it. Being faced with the suggestion of changing your female body to a male one seemed to upset you.

a reply to: snowen20

Want to know what it's like to be female? Try having the sexual reassignment surgery. Remove your penis and have breast implants. Take female hormones. Your chest and facial hair will stop growing. Your voice will get higher. Do you think that will make you 100% woman? My guess is it probably won't. That's because you identify as a man. Putting you in a woman's body won't change how you identify yourself. Now take that in the reverse. A person born in a male body, but has always identified as a woman. Having all the male parts doesn't make him 100% man any more than having the female body parts will make you 100% woman. I'm just saying that gender identity is a lot more complicated than body dysmorphia.

I'm not trying to downplay body dysmorphia, by the way. It's a serious issue. I just don't think it's the same as gender identity. I don't believe gender identity not matching with the body is a mental illness. I believe it's a neurobiological condition that happens in utero.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
1. Being a heterosexual male, I do not fine the male physical body sexually attractive in the least bit. I think my view is somewhat of the norm for most heterosexual males, so to think of a person who is physically male that might be attracted to me is not something I would want to experience. This could help create the divide that you speak of.

Ya know what - - many (maybe most) heterosexual women do not find the male physical body sexually attractive either.

Just like men, women have preferences. Some like tall slender men, some like androgynous (ick), my preference is "solid on the ground mountain men types".

Just to look at visually, I'd rather look at a female body - - they're just prettier, like a work of art.

My point is, there is a lot more going on in everyone's brain when it comes to sexuality then some want to acknowledge.

originally posted by: Legman
a reply to: honested3

For me? Its having sexual preference pushed down my throat. Its simply not convenient for me. If heteros (and they do at times) do the same- I resent it. Look... I was delayed by an hour trying to get to work a month ago because of a gay parade.... That is inconvenient to me.

Good effing lord, what a failure of an attempt at legitimizing your "excuse". I've been delayed in traffic by town parades, holiday parades, and even < GASP > funeral processions. Long ones, that takes upwards of 5 minutes to fully pass. If you sat waiting for that, would you be all put out saying thanks for the inconvenience, families. Those damned funeral attendees, thinking they have a right to the road before everyone else, it's just a corpse, it doesn't care. No? That's fine? But whoa nelly, a gay parade is something horrible to hold up people with, everything else is just hunky dory to sit through.

OP, people of weak mind & weak character will use any excuse possible to validate their feelings, as counterproductive or backwards as they are. Trans & gay people are targeted because, for the most part, religion says it's ok. Back in the day, religion used to say it was ok to subjugate women & other creeds & colors. It still exists today, in a dying number, however. At the rate we're going, I give it another 2, maybe 3 generations before this knuckle-dragger philosophy dies off enough to be an extreme minority of subdued WBC-like comedy.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: ProfessorChaos

Tell this to the transgender that can't get hired, or the transgender who gets beat up, or the transgender who has been told by their parents that they are "evil" while they completely cut them off from the rest of the family. It's a little bit different than being left-handed.

Sorry, but if you understand that the world you live in, looks at your lifestyle as strange, and then go to an interview as a (to quote a previous post) 6'2" man with 5 o'clock shadow, in a sundress and makeup, you should also expect to have a difficult time being taken seriously for a job.
As for being beaten up, that happens to all different kinds of people, for all kinds of wrong reasons; the victim being transgendered has no bearing on that, as it is one of the darker facets of human nature.
Forcing people, through legislation and brow-beating, to accept you, is not true acceptance at all. I hate to break it to you, but true acceptance has to be organic, not forced. Which is why, despite all of the laws that have been passed throughout the years to protect those of alternative lifestyles will never be enough for those people; they want true acceptance, and do not seem to understand that a law will never change someone's opinion of them.

Corporations are legal, yet there's a large amount of people who hate them. Should those people be forced by law to see things the way the corporations do?
Racist groups are legally allowed to exist, and there are people who hate them. Should we all "accept" their viewpoints as well?

There's nothing special about transgenders; they're just another group of people. The difference is, they are demanding that those of us that do not agree with their views, change ours to fit theirs, and they're attempting to force that through legislation, and shaming, which is supposedly what they were fighting against in the first place.

originally posted by: Nyiah
I give it another 2, maybe 3 generations before this knuckle-dragger philosophy dies off enough to be an extreme minority of subdued WBC-like comedy.

Gawd, I sure hope so.

As seizures were once thought to be possessed by the Devil - - until science proved what was really going on.

Science now knows sexuality is far more then a physical difference.

originally posted by: ProfessorChaos

Forcing people, through legislation and brow-beating, to accept you, is not true acceptance at all. I hate to break it to you, but true acceptance has to be organic, not forced.

So you don't support the Civil Rights Act or the Disability Act?

a reply to: snowen20

I appreciate you trying to relate your condition to transgender conditions. While you can probably relate to the discomfort, the actual condition is not similar. For example, body dysmorphia is a psychological condition (as you know) but gender dysphoria is physiological. Researchers are finding actual brain structure differences between cisgender and transgender (even in those who never transition). They are expecting to get to the point of being able to predict gender dysphoria in utero in a few years.

I only bring up the disparities to underline the importance of treating the two differently. With your condition, treatment can be handled with therapy and with working exclusively on your psyche. With gender dysphoria, there is nothing they can do to the brain to fix it since it's not just a brain issue; it's also a body issue. That's why there's no pill to cure it and no amount of therapy can "fix" a transgender person. The only medical cure for transgender people is to transition. People treat us like there's something wrong with our brains without ever considering the possibility (and fact) that it's the body that is wrong. The only reason society views it as a mental issue is because it's easier for them to process the concept.

So, in short -
Body dysmorphia = psychological condition
Gender dysphoria = physiological condition
Similar spelling but very different causes and treatments.

On another thing I've been thinking about that posters are whining about -- clothing. Do kilts bother you? Would they still bother you if men still wore them if they weren't plaid, had no indication of family clans? If the answer to both is no, then what difference does it make to see a guy in a dress? A guy wearing a kilt is still wearing a SKIRT, girls wear skirts as well.

Furthermore, what makes it ok to bitch about people complaining about the trashy dressing women of America letting everything show for the masses? Women can dress like a total hooker and that's ok because it's their empowering choice, but a man can't don a strappy summer dress if he likes it? Why the hell not? it's like people are trying to be hypocritical fashion police, and it makes zero sense. We can't tell women what to wear or not wear because it's sexist & mean, but we can tell men "NO dresses for thou!" an it's dandy? Once upon a time, women weren't allowed to wear legged attire, either, but we sure do now. Hell, you can't pay me to wear a dress or skirt, I dislike non-legged clothing (it feels awkward to me)

People might want to reflect on these moronic dress code rules, they aren't holding up to scrutiny.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Boadicea

Okay, but isn't it interesting that you took it as an insult when I suggested a man's body for you. I'm just wondering why...
I honestly thought you would agree with me and say that you wouldn't mind giving it a try (due to the hard time your female body gave you). But you perceived having a man's body as an insult. See, I think you have a gender identity as a woman - you just don't realize it. Being faced with the suggestion of changing your female body to a male one seemed to upset you.

Actually, no... It started when you called me flippant when I tried to make it clear I was not being flippant but quite sincere, continued with a few less than complimentary assumptions about me, and I thought you were being deliberately obtuse and ignoring my very real and consistent point, even as I directly addressed your points... The suggestion that I would be "happier" is diametrically opposed to the point I was trying to make: It's impossible for me or the OP or anyone to know what we do not know. It also suggested that my happiness depends on my gender -- again, exactly the opposite of the point I was making.

Even your suggestion that my perception of hostility is based on gender identity issues still suggests the exact opposite of what I am saying... and continues to dismiss and minimize the serious point I am trying to discuss, as well as dismissing me and minimizing my thoughts and feelings... and this is in a thread asking why so many people do the same to the OP. The funny thing is, it also made clear that the reason this is even an issue is because you and probably the OP and so many others do identify so strongly with gender-related issues. For the same reason it's impossible for me to understand your perspective, it's probably equally impossible for you to understand mine. In the end, it just makes me sad. We are so much more than our gender... than our physical body.... in so many ways.

a reply to: Nyiah

Wait ... You think this is about clothing?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Xtrozero
1. Being a heterosexual male, I do not fine the male physical body sexually attractive in the least bit. I think my view is somewhat of the norm for most heterosexual males, so to think of a person who is physically male that might be attracted to me is not something I would want to experience. This could help create the divide that you speak of.

Ya know what - - many (maybe most) heterosexual women do not find the male physical body sexually attractive either.

Just like men, women have preferences. Some like tall slender men, some like androgynous (ick), my preference is "solid on the ground mountain men types".

Just to look at visually, I'd rather look at a female body - - they're just prettier, like a work of art.

My point is, there is a lot more going on in everyone's brain when it comes to sexuality then some want to acknowledge.

There's some contradiction going on in there.

If you don't find the male physical body attractive, why are you attracted "solid on the ground mountain men?"

I think instead of not finding males attractive, you are simply have your types just like everyone else. It might surprise you to find that not all men automatically find all women attractive either. Some like 'em curvy and other prefer the legs, etc. Does that mean they don't find the female physical body attractive because they have preferences for it being put together in certain ways?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Nyiah

Wait ... You think this is about clothing?

Not entirely, but it's been mentioned in this thread many times that what some posters vehemently dislike is the attire choices of trans people like it signals a potential fraudulent mate. Who cares? If no one cares about me wearing shorts or jeans, why does it matter if a trans person wants to wear a skirt or dress?

a reply to: Boadicea

The flippant comment was because you WERE being flippant - with the comments about trading bosoms for shoulders and being able to give up underwires. I was trying to offer up a mental exercise in a sincere attempt to help us all understand what it might feel like to be in a body that didn't match what your brain said. This is a nightmare situation for transgenders and you joked about underwires.

So, I gave up on the sincere attempt and started joking back with you, thinking you would take it as such and agree that maybe being a guy wouldn't be so bad after all, and you got offended instead. Seems you can dish it out but you can't take it.

Seems to me that you, along with Ketsuko, are trying as hard as you can NOT to try to imagine what it would feel like to be in a body that didn't match what was in your head. Okay fine, if you don't want to try than don't try. But at least be honest that you aren't interested in trying to learn what life is like for a transgender.

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Nyiah

Wait ... You think this is about clothing?

Not entirely, but it's been mentioned in this thread many times that what some posters vehemently dislike is the attire choices of trans people like it signals a potential fraudulent mate. Who cares? If no one cares about me wearing shorts or jeans, why does it matter if a trans person wants to wear a skirt or dress?

Oh, so you think it would appropriate interview attire for an obvious physical male to go in a sundress and high heels?

And don't bring this back to kilts. They are completely different attire that a woman's sundress and heels.

Even further, is it appropriate for a salesman to wear such attire even though the majority of people would be uncomfortable with it and possibly stop patronizing the company?

This is again about trying to force society into the image you prefer. Sometimes, you have to accommodate society.

Not afraid nor ''unaccepting'' but questioning the morality and ethics of the misinterpretation of the rare condition GID into a grotesque, flip flop mentality of ''you are as you choose on whichever day'' denial of genetics and the overuse of major surgery as a whimsical 'right'.

Children should be taught to accept the bodies and minds they are born with, that is the basis of non discrimination and self healing.

The militant, agenda based hatred spouted by those pushing a disorder as a norm is truly discrimination.

As for baiting threads, I guess it serves a purpose of outing those involved and their lack of tolerance to the norm.