It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

the Adam & Eve story as a metaphore of the emergence of civilization

page: 1
16
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 16 2015 @ 10:41 PM
link   
Have you ever heard of this theory which says that the story of adam & eve and the fruit of knowledge and the lost eden etc, is actually a myth to symbolize the passage from hunter-gatherer style of life to civilized, agricultural, religious style of life in cities ? If yes, please tell me where you have read/heard it.

For dozens and even hundreds of thousands of years, humans lived as hunter-gatherers in harmony with nature. They felt as they were part of nature, they didn't see themselves as separate entities, and as such for them everything was divine, they didn't need any religion because everyday life was religious ( and here "religious" has to be taken in the etymological sense of "religare" in latin, which means "to connect" and in extension means "to be part of" ). The river which gave water, the animal which gave meat, the tree which gave fruits, the sky, the earth, the human being and everything else were all seen as one divine immanence which we can call Nature or Reality. There was no commerce and exchange of merchandise, there was no money, there was no need for that because Nature was there to provide in abundance. This was our garden of Eden.

Then the fruit of knowledge arrived in the form of writing and agriculture. The first writings that we have found are accounting writings, and from there the merchandising of everything started and money was invented, the specialization of knowledge also started, because some had to become warriors to protect the harvests, others had to become producers and others had to become priests. Then at the same time came religion, and it came because human beings felt that they lost something in the transition, they felt something was lacking, like if they had been expelled from the womb and became orphans. They felt they were separate entities from everything else and they had to invent unseen entities to connect to.

Fast forward to the present day. We have created for ourselves a world in which everything is merchandise, starting with human beings. We have become alienated creatures, isolated from everything else, from Nature, but also isolated from each other. The fetishism of the merchandise has eaten everything that it could and not much is left for it to eat. Money is the new master, the new religion and anyone who believes that money can be mastered is a fool. The way we live today is not in our nature, we have been alienated from our very nature. Though I am not into any religion, I respect a character like Jesus Christ, (whether he has existed or not is not even important), who kind of understood that money and merchants were the problem. He had a radical philosophy.

We will not be free until we abolish money and the fetishism of merchandise. The more we advance the more we enslave ourselves. The goal wouldn't be to go back to hunter-gatherer style of life, but to invent something new and to throw away concepts that had their uses but which are now a hindrance, but this is for another topic..




posted on May, 16 2015 @ 10:51 PM
link   
We shared caves with sabre tooth tigers and cave bears....what the hell was outside the cave



posted on May, 16 2015 @ 11:00 PM
link   
a reply to: gosseyn

I wouldn't say money and merchandise are the primary problem, but our separation from Life, from recognizing the truth that we are always inherently in a condition of relatedness, of being connected - this lack of recognition is our malady. We are not separate, independent entities. You spoke of this in terms of initially feeling connected, and now we are isolated. I agree with you that this is mankind's current state of delusion.

First we need to recognize that no matter how independent we may think we are, we still are fundamentally dependent on the environment, and are always in a condition of relatedness (connectedness) to everything and everyone we encounter.

Once this is recognized as the truth of our existence, then on that basis we can make changes that run contrary to that simple truth - such as believing that endless consumerism is going to make us feel more connected, that money will make us happy, that we are independent entities, etc.

It is recognizing that we are inherently and always connected to all that we encounter, to life itself, that frees us to feel happy, to feel the primal, unifying force and energy of life through the whole body-mind more and more profoundly. This is what we tend to seek for in objects, but it is always available to us for free when we recognize and live on the basis of our fundamental relatedness.

This inherent feeling of connectedness has nothing to do with what we can accumulate, whether that be materials, money, beliefs, etc. - it is already the case, but it does require our noticing its truth in each moment, and then we will make whatever changes this recognition of our actual reality requires.

We are not the victims of money and merchandise. We first must recognize our real situation here, and these material objects will fall into whatever functionality they may have for us.

edit on 5/16/2015 by bb23108 because:



posted on May, 16 2015 @ 11:34 PM
link   
Are you basing this on christian theology or are you an agnostic or atheist interpreting the bible to fit your belief

There is a lot wrong with your assumption from a theological view

Today we still have hunter gatherers so that sort of messes the point.

Your theory about merchandise and materialism is relevant, mixing it with the genesis story makes it a little crazy. The genesis story is completely unrelated in anyway other than in your assumption.
Absolutely no valid connection that I can see at all.

It seems you have taken a little knowledge and based a theory on that little knowledge, you have missed the big picture. Also the bible is a spiritual book as well as a historical narrative, you ignore that view all together seemingly?

Sorry



posted on May, 16 2015 @ 11:50 PM
link   

originally posted by: borntowatch
Are you basing this on christian theology or are you an agnostic or atheist interpreting the bible to fit your belief

There is a lot wrong with your assumption from a theological view

Today we still have hunter gatherers so that sort of messes the point.

Your theory about merchandise and materialism is relevant, mixing it with the genesis story makes it a little crazy. The genesis story is completely unrelated in anyway other than in your assumption.
Absolutely no valid connection that I can see at all.

It seems you have taken a little knowledge and based a theory on that little knowledge, you have missed the big picture. Also the bible is a spiritual book as well as a historical narrative, you ignore that view all together seemingly?

Sorry


Do you know what a metaphor is ?



posted on May, 16 2015 @ 11:54 PM
link   
yes I know what a metaphor is

Are you saying the whole bible is a metaphor



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 12:02 AM
link   
a reply to: gosseyn

'Ware the troll. It usually menaces the Origins & Creationism forum, but sometimes it goes for a little walk.

Not replying is always an option.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 12:44 AM
link   
a reply to: gosseyn

That was nice. S&F. Enjoyed it very much.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 02:06 AM
link   

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: gosseyn

'Ware the troll. It usually menaces the Origins & Creationism forum, but sometimes it goes for a little walk.

Not replying is always an option.


Wow I have my own personal stalker.
Good to see you again asty.

Attacking me always guarantees a few cheap stars, good move

You dont care to comment about the subject at hand, just thought you would throw in a line about me?


Not replying is always an option.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 03:19 AM
link   

originally posted by: gosseyn

For dozens and even hundreds of thousands of years, humans lived as hunter-gatherers in harmony with nature. They felt as they were part of nature, they didn't see themselves as separate entities, and as such for them everything was divine, they didn't need any religion because everyday life was religious ( and here "religious" has to be taken in the etymological sense of "religare" in latin, which means "to connect" and in extension means "to be part of" ).

It is words that drove us out of the Garden of Eden. Only the human has words and symbols which represent something that is not. Animals can't see or hear what is not - can a tiger see or hear yesterday or tomorrow? No. But the human 'imagines' that it can see tomorrow and fails to notice that it is only seeing or hearing an imagination now. Nothing can be seen or heard except for what is actually happening - but because humans have words and symbols (mind) it can construct an imaginary stage (elsewhere - there and then) and seem to remove itself from presence.
Presence is all there is - there is nothing at all separate in or from presence and presence is what the Garden of Eden represents.
You can never leave presence, the present is happening continually but words speak of other.

This was our garden of Eden.

This IS the Garden of Eden - this is where all arises and subsides. Stories happen and they can appear to lead one outside presence.



The more we advance the more we enslave ourselves. The goal wouldn't be to go back to hunter-gatherer style of life, but to invent something new and to throw away concepts that had their uses but which are now a hindrance, but this is for another topic..

If you are imagining yourself in the future then indeed you have created something which enslaves 'you' - you have created an illusory separate person that needs to be looked after - you have enslaved yourself.................but check now - how many of you are there?
If you think you are the image that has been created in mind (made of past experiences) you will be projecting that image into the future - all this is done presently but because the present is full of the image of you and past and future, the present is missed.
The Garden of Eden is always present, it is paradise but the paradise is lost when one casts himself outside of presence. Paradise is found when one stops casting himself outside of presence - it is only when one finds that he never leaves presence but just sees and hears talk of other presently. The separate person only appears in a dream of separation that is dreamt now.

edit on 17-5-2015 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 03:36 AM
link   

originally posted by: bb23108

It is recognizing that we are inherently and always connected to all that we encounter, to life itself, that frees us to feel happy, to feel the primal, unifying force and energy of life through the whole body-mind more and more profoundly. This is what we tend to seek for in objects, but it is always available to us for free when we recognize and live on the basis of our fundamental relatedness.


It is recognizing that life is just simply happening - there is no one that needs to connect to life. The feeling (or belief) that there is a 'you' that can 'connect' implies that there can be a disconnection - it implies that there is a 'you' and 'life'.
This is aliveness and it is simply happening.
Where are 'you'? Where is 'life'? Are they separate 'things'?

The only 'cure' is to realize (not intellectualize or learn or obtain or connect) that life is just simply happening and there is no one doing it. The 'individual' is a word arising because of other words like 'before' and 'after'.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 08:29 AM
link   
a reply to: gosseyn
Yes you are on to something there. The story is a metaphor for the way that people changed there way of life from hunter gatherers to farmers and then on to civilisation I think. There would have still been hunter gatherers around then as there are now and people in towns and cities may have wistfully observed their way of life and wondered why they had to toil in the fields. Notice how their son Abel was a pastoralist and Cain was a dirt farmer with his fruit and grain? Classic case of rancher versus sod buster like in the movie Shane. But God doesn't seem to like the farmers much with all their ploughing and digging and prefers the pastoralists with their simple grass eaters who don't mess up the ground as much. The bible is full of parables and metaphors and all kinds of take home messages like that. It is thought that the story of the forbidden fruit is the way of explaining how a sacrificial king was chosen each year and given an apple as a symbol of his would-be trip to paradise (paradise means apple orchard I believe). The story is meant to show God's anger at this vile practice and maybe a new religion wanted it to stop. I could go on...........

cheers



edit on 17-5-2015 by grumpy64 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 08:37 AM
link   

originally posted by: borntowatch
yes I know what a metaphor is

Are you saying the whole bible is a metaphor
Its metaphorical, and figurative in nature. Can you say that the bible is a tissue of errors, no, but man has erred in interpreting it.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 08:46 AM
link   

originally posted by: grumpy64
a reply to: gosseyn
But God doesn't seem to like the farmers much with all their ploughing and digging and prefers the pastoralists with their simple grass eaters who don't mess up the ground as much.



Not so much. Adam was cursed to toil in the fields, so it would make no sense for God to hate the farmer. The issue was Cain not giving his first and best as an offering. Think about it like this, would you want a gift from someone that grudgingly gave it to you out of obligation or from someone that gave it to you because they saw you as a blessing in their life? Countenance matters.

The thing is once you go from hunting and gathering food to growing food, you can't go back to gathering. There is just too much uncertainty in that prospect.
edit on 17-5-2015 by KeliOnyx because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:15 AM
link   

originally posted by: gosseyn
We will not be free until we abolish money and the fetishism of merchandise. The more we advance the more we enslave ourselves. The goal wouldn't be to go back to hunter-gatherer style of life, but to invent something new and to throw away concepts that had their uses but which are now a hindrance, but this is for another topic..


I think you need to think about it a different way.

The modern man still is a hunter-gatherer. I work in IT, when I go out to work everyday, I am essentially out hunting to provide food for my family. The only difference is, at the end of my "hunt" - I get money, which I use to buy food - but if you cut out all the middlemen, I still go out hunting for my family.

Abolishing money won't fix anything, people will still barter for goods, say silver or gold for this and that; which will just end up forming a currency with shared value.

I think you are on the right lines though, man lost something from the "garden of Eden" -- but what was it? I don't know.

Interesting thread OP, star and flag.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 09:23 AM
link   

originally posted by: Shadow Herder

originally posted by: borntowatch
yes I know what a metaphor is

Are you saying the whole bible is a metaphor

Its metaphorical, and figurative in nature. Can you say that the bible is a tissue of errors, no, but man has erred in interpreting it.


Yep I have no problem with that, so have I

But to say that genesis is a description of the change from hunter gatherer to farming and education.

I just dont see it anywhere other than imagination.

I mean really, I bet Gosseyn has never read it, bet if he she has they have never studied it



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:41 AM
link   
Paradigm of the evolution of consciousness from the sacred to the profane through the duality of male and female descended from an absolute state of pure innocence.

a reply to: gosseyn



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 11:48 AM
link   
a reply to: gosseyn



For dozens and even hundreds of thousands of years, humans lived as hunter-gatherers in harmony with nature


True.



Fast forward to the present day. We have created for ourselves a world in which everything is merchandise, starting with human beings.


The abstraction of thought is believing we have evolved from the Hunter/Gatherer realm of existence. We are still hunters and gatherers, except we do so for things that go beyond our immediate needs. Now we collect TV's, gadgets, clothes, etc.

Here is a thought:

What would happen to the surrounding nature of the greater New York area if that population was to do away with the way things are at the moment...? What if 30 Million + people just decided to live off the land in these modern times? Would it look as if locust just ran through it?



Progress trap




Overview[edit]
While the idea is not new, Wright identifies the central problem as being one of scale and political will. According to him, the error is often to extrapolate from what appears to work well on a small scale to a larger scale, which depletes natural resources and causes environmental degradation. Large-scale implementation also tends to be subject to diminishing returns. As overpopulation, erosion, greenhouse gas emissions or other consequences become apparent, society is destabilized.

In a progress trap, those in positions of authority are unwilling to make changes necessary for future survival. To do so they would need to sacrifice their current status and political power at the top of a hierarchy. They may also be unable to raise public support and the necessary economic resources, even if they try. Deforestation and erosion in ancient Greece may be an example of the latter.

A new source of natural resources can provide a reprieve. The European discovery and exploitation of the "New World" is one example of this, but seems unlikely to be repeated today. Present global civilization has covered the planet to such an extent there are no new resources in sight. Wright concludes that if not averted by some other means, collapse will be on a global scale, if or when it comes. Current economic crises, population problems and global climate change are symptoms that highlight the interdependence of current national economies and ecologies.

The problem has deep historical roots. In the early stone age, improved hunting techniques in vulnerable areas caused the extinction of many prey species, leaving the enlarged populace without an adequate food supply. The only apparent alternative, agriculture, also proved to be a progress trap. Salination, deforestation, erosion and urban sprawl led to disease, malnutrition and so forth, hence shorter lives.

Almost any sphere of technology can prove to be a progress trap, as in the example of medicine and its possibly inadequate response to the drawbacks of the high-density agricultural practices (e.g. factory farming) it has enabled. Wright uses weapon technology gradually reaching the threat of total nuclear destruction to illustrate this point. Ultimately, Wright strives to counter at least the Victorian notion of "modernity" as unconditionally a good thing.


en.wikipedia.org...

A Short History of Progress



en.wikipedia.org...



The way we live today is not in our nature, we have been alienated from our very nature.


Yes and no.

Great read, thank you for posting.


edit on 17-5-2015 by Involutionist because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 01:01 PM
link   
Like I said in the OP, the goal wouldn't be to go back to a hunter-gatherer style of life, because in the current circumstances it would result in a disaster, but the goal would be to analyse the structure of the hunter-gatherer way of existence and look closely at the relations that a hunter-gatherer had with others and the world around.

Today, we are not hunter-gatherers, because of many parameters :
- Nature was providing for all communities of hunter-gatherers in abundance, for free.
- Nothing was seen as merchandise
- there was no accumulation of 'wealth' beyond reasonable quantities because there was no need for it, since everything was available in abundance
- There was what I would call a natural religion which pervaded everything that hunter-gatherers did, from painting in caves to hunting to making love to watching the sunrise etc..
- There was no specialization, the guy who painted the cave with a depiction of a hunt was the same guy who hunted the day before
- there was no work as we commonly understand it today, there were no jobs

Today, scarcity is artificially maintained. Everything is merchandise, everything is for sale. Some people accumulate an incredible amount of wealth and this should be treated as a mental disease but is instead glorified and praised as a model. Organised religions are a caricature of spirituality, like canned lyophilizated spirituality produced en masse. We are over specialized and we don't see the big picture. We still work a lot despite all the improvements in productivity due to science and technology.

To sum it up :

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.”



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 01:38 PM
link   
a reply to: gosseyn



Today, scarcity is artificially maintained. Everything is merchandise, everything is for sale. Some people accumulate an incredible amount of wealth and this should be treated as a mental disease but is instead glorified and praised as a model. Organised religions are a caricature of spirituality, like canned lyophilizated spirituality produced en masse. We are over specialized and we don't see the big picture. We still work a lot despite all the improvements in productivity due to science and technology.


I agree.



Like I said in the OP, the goal wouldn't be to go back to a hunter-gatherer style of life, because in the current circumstances it would result in a disaster, but the goal would be to analyse the structure of the hunter-gatherer way of existence and look closely at the relations that a hunter-gatherer had with others and the world around.


...but we haven't evolved past that as a species (biologically and philosophically). We have just incorporated "wants" into that equation that surpass our needs. Again, we are inherently still Hunters and Gatherers. That is a key fact.


The problem has deep historical roots. In the early stone age, improved hunting techniques in vulnerable areas caused the extinction of many prey species, leaving the enlarged populace without an adequate food supply. The only apparent alternative, agriculture, also proved to be a progress trap. Salination, deforestation, erosion and urban sprawl led to disease, malnutrition and so forth, hence shorter lives.


Catch 22.





“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.”


...and people fail to take personal responsibility for their own lives. They point the finger at others. Just like the quote is alluding to.



there was no work as we commonly understand it today, there were no jobs



Why don't you quit your job and live up to this ideology?

Some people state this on social media but would never turn down a raise in their personal reality. It's politically correct state such things because it sounds good to the ears, but outside of that, do they actually adhere to such beliefs?

To be fair, I don't work. It was greed that got me here and yet, it is being not greedy that caused me to bow out of the game.



new topics

top topics



 
16
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join