Truly, truly; The true bread from heaven

Put a person from each denomination in their own room and have them read Chapter 6. They will all walk out with a different interpretation. This is not a great way to examine our Religeon which deals with our entire salvation., not an effective way at all.

This is why we can't look to modern scripture to unpack all this. It's a translation of a translation of a translation, that's then translated into our own language. Silliness.

Where do we go for a definitive explanation then, since, unlike you, I don't like to just make things up as I go along. I want Truth.

We can go back and read what The Church fathers wrote. What did Christians believe immediately after Jesus' death? How did they practice their faith, what did they believe? The answers are right there. I can give you example after example of what The Church practiced for many hundreds of years, right up til now. I won't though. It's more efficacious if you discover early Church writings yourself.

Google "Early Church Fathers and Eucharist". You'll get hundreds and hundreds of hits. But I doubt you will. Because you might just end up Catholic, and we could never have THAT! Another reason I doubt it, is because rather than truly, humbly and honestly searching for Truth...I sorta think this all just a hobby for you.

Any humble search for Truth within all Christianity, in its' vast history and traditions...will find Catholicism.

"This is my Body". So according to you, Jesus was a liar? Go find out what St Gregory, or St Augustine or St Ignatius of Antioch or St Irenaeus or St Justin wrote in the year 155.

What you will find is exactly how clueless you are with regards to John's chapter 6. Don't just make it up, study the history of your faith. This is exactly why there are 30,000+ denominations in Christianity.

There is only one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. The Catholic Church, started by Jesus Christ when he handed the keys to St Peter, and told him to feed His sheep.

I'll continue to pray for you.

AMDG




a reply to: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Ignatian

Google "Early Church Fathers and Eucharist".

I did this and found what I would expect - that early Christians related to Jesus as Presence through the Eucharist. But is this still actually the case today? How many Catholics actually feel and relate to Jesus as Presence - as a daily, even moment to moment influence in their lives?

As I said in my earlier post which you did not respond to:

It is not just a matter of feeling the Eucharist is the body of Jesus, paying Jesus a few remembrances, etc. One must connect with the Spirit and breathe that One fully, throughout the whole body-mind, each day. Then there is communion with the Divine, not just through some magical mental assumption associated with the bread each Sunday and perhaps combined with a little bit of heart-feeling for Jesus.

What my post was getting at was this process and what Jesus clearly pointed to when he spoke of loving God with the whole heart, mind, strength, and spirit. The Eucharist was given not just as a process of remembrance and belief, but as a formal time of truly practicing altogether what Jesus taught - and to continue that each and every day.

So is this a correct understanding in your view of the Eucharist? And if so, is this what is actually practiced in Catholicism these days? The more specific you can be, the better.

Thank you.

originally posted by: Ignatian
"This is my Body". So according to you, Jesus was a liar?

I presume you believe that a man is "born again" by creeping back into his mother's womb?
You must do, if you think that anyone who doesn't take his words with pedantic literalness is calling him a liar.
(If you are on the scene when a man is reporting that his wife was so upset that she lost her head, I would advise you to keep your mouth shut)

Unfortunately, you belong to a community which is collectively incapable of recognisng a spiritual meaning.

Incidentally, I belong to Christ, which in itself makes me a member of the one true church.
That is the only valid definition.
But this thread is not about the church, so I won't discuss it any further.

Thanks for your response. I enjoyed reading that.

Although it's my belief the whole concept of Eucharist can never be fully grasped by anyone, I agree with what you wrote. And yes, it is still practiced by Catholics today. SOME of them :-)

There was a study done, and I'm pulling this number out of my memory. Diocese priests were asked, out of their parish, what percentage did they believe were "intentional disciples" of Jesus Christ? These would be folks who actually lived their faith, in ways you described above. They were truly Catholic. They give their time, talent, treasure, attend mass daily usually, etc. they're on fire for Jesus. The sobering answer? About 5%

Ghandi, known for being a huge student of Christian scripture was asked why he had never become a Christian. His answer: "I may have become a Christian had I ever actually met one"

The Catholic Church does not have the market cornered on sinning. We are ALL sinners.

This needs to change. And the change starts with me. Although I consider myself an intentional disciple of Jesus Christ, I'm still a horrible sinner. I'm a better Christian today than I was yesterday. I pray I'm a better Christian tomorrow than I am today.

My goal is to be a saint. It should be every Christian's goal. I will stumble, this I know. And this Jesus knew also. This is why at Pentacost (today, the birthday of His Church)...after sending the Spirit into his apostles...(Catholic priests today) The first thing he did was to tell them to go and forgive sinners. Thanks Jesus. I'm trying.




a reply to: bb23108

"The first reaction to Truth is hatred" (Tertullian

Come on Disraeli, you're better than this:
"A community which is collectively incapable of recognizing a spiritual meaning"

Do you really believe that about The Catholic Church? Do you really believe that about me? We are fully capable of understanding spiritual meaning. We compiled The Bible you so frequently misunderstand.


a reply to: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Ignatian
We compiled The Bible you so frequently misunderstand.

No, "we" did not, if "we" means the modern Roman Catholic church.
The Bible was compiled by the original universal church.
Your community is NOT that original church; it is just one of the many fragments of that church, making an illegitimate claim to monopoly rights on the label.

But this is not a thread about the church, so I don't intend to discuss it.
This is about the meaning of a Biblical passage.

The true bread of heaven is Spiritual Sustenance. The Divine feeds the heart directly, and this is more primary than physical sustenance - in that, without the Light of God infilling the body, heart, spirit, and mind - we could not survive (whether we are conscious of this or not).

I appreciate your confession, and the information you shared about practitioners of Catholicism. Thank you.

originally posted by: Ignatian
My goal is to be a saint. It should be every Christian's goal. I will stumble, this I know. And this Jesus knew also. This is why at Pentacost (today, the birthday of His Church)...after sending the Spirit into his apostles...(Catholic priests today) The first thing he did was to tell them to go and forgive sinners. Thanks Jesus. I'm trying.

A worthy goal, it seems. But don't Jesus' commandments actually require complete surrender to the Divine, including one's ideas of what one should be? In other words, how can being a selfless saint be something the self desires and attains as a goal?

The first great commandment truly cannot be fulfilled without the Grace of God - the true bread of Heaven - for who can possibly love God that fully without the real surrender to God of the whole body-mind, heart, and spirit - in which His Love can then infill the surrendered and completely receptive being - and thus makes this commandment, to be selflessly in Love with God, possible?

Cool to be discussing this on the Pentacost too.

"I belong to Christ which in itself makes me a member of the one true church"

I'll give ya an amen to that my brother!

"For as many of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."




a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes, it's fodder for another thread, but...

So, where is this other, original, universal Church???. It must exist right? I mean, Jesus handed keys to Peter, said how He would start His Church, told him to feed the sheep and promised the gates of hell would never prevail against it. So, either Jesus was lying...or there's a Church that still exists, that is adhering to the sacraments that Jesus instituted. Where is this Church?








a reply to: DISRAELI

My definition (and the Catholic Church's) of a saint is simply, someone who is in heaven. I want to be a saint. I want to go to heaven. Dying to one's self...one's will, and handing it all over to God is one sure fire way to getting there. It's "me", my concupiscence that stands in the way to being holy, "as He is holy". To live, one must die. That ain't easy. It ain't easy to be a Christian. There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend. I consider Jesus a friend. And I let Him down far too often, when my own will wins out.

You show me one human being who has ever lived who says they've never broken the 1st commandment, and you'll be showing me a liar.





a reply to: bb23108

a reply to: Ignatian
There is an existing thread which touches on the subject;
1 Corinthians; Defining the church

The short answer to your question is that the church founded by Christ still exists, in the shape of a number of fragments, called things like "Catholic church", "Church of England", "Methodist church", "Baptist church", "Presbyterian church", and so on. But I deplore the use of the word "church" for these institutions. I think it confuses the issue. They are all, including your own, religious communities which are fragments of the one true church.
For which that thread suggests a definition.

originally posted by: Ignatian
My definition (and the Catholic Church's) of a saint is simply, someone who is in heaven. I want to be a saint. I want to go to heaven. Dying to one's self...one's will, and handing it all over to God is one sure fire way to getting there. It's "me", my concupiscence that stands in the way to being holy, "as He is holy". To live, one must die. That ain't easy. It ain't easy to be a Christian. There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend. I consider Jesus a friend. And I let Him down far too often, when my own will wins out.

You show me one human being who has ever lived who says they've never broken the 1st commandment, and you'll be showing me a liar.

No one can or ever will intentionally die to one's self - it is not possible. That is part of the beauty of Jesus' two great commandments - to create a perfect means to force oneself to simply give up trying to do it themselves, and this release of seeking allows God to take over one's life moment to moment.

Anything other than full surrender to God is missing the mark, is assuming separation or non-communion with the Divine. This is the dark night of the soul - when one becomes so despaired of ever being able to live the commandments perfectly, to feel full of the Divine - that they give up all effort, all thinking, all concerns, the whole self, to God. In this moment, God can and may enter and provide His true Bread. It is in God's hands.

Only on this basis of being in communion with the Divine, can the commandments truly be fulfilled. In the meantime, we try, and adapt, and they purify the being, they align us more to God, but still we hold on to self. So it is best to turn over the self and live by the Grace of God from the very beginning.

Such love is the necessary foundation and why Jesus spoke only of love in his two great commandments. Living as we can based on the commandments prepare the being to receive God's Grace more and more, and also continually humble us with our shortcomings. They are a great gift from Jesus that can undo the self in God. If more Christians (and really, anyone else) took notice of and lived on the basis of his brilliant Gift, much change could occur. Christianity might even stop dwindling in numbers.

I looked at your thread. It's fringe thinking, for sure. And I'm not buying it. Very incoherent. Very anti-Catholic. Cherry picked, it is not supported by many other bible verses.

I'll stick with the teachings of Jesus, and His Church: The Catholic Church, led by The Bishop of Rome. And as prophesied by Isaiah, our Holy Father, the pope is the new master of the royal household of His people, "he shall be a Father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder, what he opens, no one will shut, what he shuts, no one will open. (sound familiar?)

Get off your spiritual island, come join the Feast. The Feast of The Lamb.




a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: Ignatian
if you don't like that thread, please stick to the topic on this one.