The Reformation of the whole wide world.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Thanks for posting documentary
"Just my cup of tea" ... as the saying goes

a reply to: Kantzveldt

they just recognized Christ as Apollo ruling from Parnassus.

Perhaps they don't know Christ. He is the epitome of abdication. The ultimate stepping aside for the benefit of another.
When the irrelevant metaphor is stripped away, you see the true heart. That isn't a throne, it's handing over.

They must think Christ is a king on a throne. No! Christ is the concept of ultimate abdication for others. That's the name elevated. The concept. The only resurrection of Christ is that others come who can also abdicate.

-------------------------
Now I'm really going to have to stop and read. I just thought that I had to write that.

ETA

I was wrong. I can't stop yet.

Almost 20 years ago, Dionysus told me that Chiron was the real model for Christ. Chiron giving up his position so Prometheus could be unbound.

Christianity is screwed up with Apollo as the model of Christ rather than Chiron.

Now I'll watch the video.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
a reply to: pthena

But seriously if we learned one thing from Greek mythology then that it is better they stay out of and far from your life, especially Furies, you don't want to mess with them, when you're the one wearing the red shirt.
Besides that, I think it is super funny how much more these stories, about all these super attractive gods show strikening similiarities with our daily soap operas, it is truly astonishing. One can leanr so much from that...
Is this Roiscrucian piece what will be known as ATS forum art, American Classic 2010-2015?

EDIT:______________________________________________________________________________
Something else, super funny as i just noticed while browsing through the other ongoing discussions:
It would look like there really is an organised effort to delete all ancient monuments. Only substitutions will be left, no archelology anymore, at least in the dirt. It sounds like what someone would do in an ornganised effort to press people into "uniformed culture".
Do you know the South Park Episode "The Ring"?

Industrialised "Youth Culture".

The satire was brilliant I thought for it's ending
At the end the body was doing what all body's do when they die
Shock Horror Lol

Of course the myth of some sage like person's body laying uncorrupted is to create a mystery and is a "White lie"
Body's decompose on death ... not a pretty sight to the living

The satire shows this lie ... and undermines the idea of the seekers of "The Light"
It is a philosophical stand point of Materialism some hold
At counter point to philosophical spirituality
Which is always a lively debate

Or maybe I am reading too much into it ... I often do

a reply to: artistpoet

Yes i think you're right with all that, clearly Free Masonry was highly influenced by something only suggested as cautionary satire, with predictable results.


a reply to: pthena

They probably also saw Christ as Dionysus...

According to Greek mythology, this mountain was sacred to Dionysus and the Dionysian mysteries; it was also sacred to Apollo and the Corycian nymphs, and it was the home of the Muses.

Mount Parnassus is named after Parnassos, the son of the nymph Kleodora and the man Kleopompus. A city, of which Parnassos was leader, was flooded by torrential rains. The citizens ran from the flood, following wolves' howling, up the mountain slope. There the survivors built another city, and called it Lykoreia, which in Greek means "the howling of the wolves." While Orpheus was living with his mother and his eight beautiful aunts on Parnassus, he met Apollo who was courting the laughing muse Thalia.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

They probably also saw Christ as Dionysus...

I was thinking the same thing, wanderer, not believed, wine, etc

That's why I asked him. He did the motion with the thumb, "that's who you should talk to."

Now that I've watched the documentary and started reading the links, I feel a bit foolish. But nonetheless, if you take the concept of Siege Perilous and extend it to worthiness of Monarch of the World, that's kind of what I was thinking.

"Who is worthy to take the throne?"

"Bring in the abdicators! Let them sit the Siege Perilous!"

Okay, enough thread drift.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Yes i think you're right with all that, clearly Free Masonry was highly influenced by something only suggested as cautionary satire, with predictable results.

The skit in " The Life of Brian" comes to mind
Where Brian holding up a sandal is taken for "A Sign"

Brian's frustrated response being ...Think for yourselves ... the crowds answer being ... But how do we think for ourselves
Literal translation being misleading ... Followers do tend to mimick their leaders.

In truth it seems contradictory that another can show one how to think for themselves
However this seems to be the goal of all Hermetic thinking
Not glory and fame for oneself but a deeper understanding of the nature of the Cosmos and our place in it
Purpose and reason and the sharing of knowledge ... the planting of seeds

Looking down the ages ... I personally end up in Ancient Egypt prior to Religion taking hold.
With a nod to a prior World wide civilisation that destroyed itself with the mis use of it's own technological knowledge

Why does the truth have to be kept secret ... The sorcerer's apprentice comes to mind
Also enlightened ideas can get one murdered in times of darkness

We can never know exactly what the dead thought ... They can not discuss their ideas in the light of further questions that always arise as words do change their meaning over time within the psyche of new generations

Hence Gnosticism has it's roots in older works and was a renewal and fresh look at the age old questions of it's day

We find a similar mindset in all the secret societies through out history ... apart from in-sincerity and perversions like Satanism ... Which goes against the tenet of "For the benefit of all" and doing no harm to others

a reply to: artistpoet

I think to a large extent this adaptation of the cult of Apollo involves showing people themselves in order that they come to know themselves, through drama and theatre, the holding up of a mirror before the audience, instruction through the seven liberal arts, the recognition of archetypal pattern.

That of course closely relates to the notion that all the world is a stage and men and women but players upon it, that we have the potential to play many parts and wear many masks within the greater drama, this of course also reflecting the fact that Divinity has taken upon itself many forms and appearances during the course of history, the greater story is what counts.

I do think there is historic validity for their recognition that the cult of Apollo was an essential aspect of formative Christianity as i wrote up here, also noteworthy that it was Apollo that announced the many aspects of Divinity.

In the 2nd and 3rd century CE, those oracles at Didyma and Clarus pronounced the so-called "theological oracles", in which Apollo confirms that all deities are aspects or servants of an all-encompassing, highest deity. "In the 3rd century, Apollo fell silent.

a reply to: pthena


There are two primary contributing factors in formative Christianity, the Near Eastern mystery rebirth tradition which can be understood in terms of Jesus as Dionysus, the human element, and Christ as Apollo, the abstract metaphysician of light, they were probably happy enough to see the former as the concern of the Church and the latter of people of reason.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

In Islam, at least Shia, there is a teaching The Occulting of Christ, meaning he is hidden away from sight. I have a similar view. The Sun, that's not hidden at all. Dionysus, not hidden to some people. Christ is hidden. I have upon occasion fallen madly in love with Sagittarian women, before I knew they were Sagittarian. Now I know that there is some dispute as to whether Chiron is Sagittarius or some other constellation, but in my heart that doesn't really matter. So for me Chiron is the visible model of the hidden Christ.

I was reading the page you linked to in the OP, and got to page 15 and saw how some rulers reacted to the satire. I laughed when I realized that was my reaction. "If we just change this and modify that, we could make this work"

Deep down I just wish that some smart group of people could actually come up with a good plan. Is it only a pipe dream?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I watched the documentary and really enjoyed it, good stuff.
But why would they have such a bad reputation when they're really just oposing the ones in charge?

Me and Cinderella

put it all together.

We can drive it home

with one headlight.

There's got to be

someone we can trust

out here among us.

a reply to: pthena

Chiron as Sagittarius is interesting, as mentor of Apollo and Artemis, i demonstrated here that the expectations of the second coming in the Book of Revelations were derivative of the cult of Ninurta (through borrowings of Marduk of Babylon), were in his astral aspect of Pabilsag he is also Sagittarius.

There is an example of a super-Ninurta from Mesopotamian tablets in which he has assimiliated all the aspects of the other Gods into his body

The Assembly of the great gods has magnified [you ...]
Ninurta, warrior, you [...],
Gatherer, their authorities you [...],
you have taken their offices and you [...],
kingship of lords [is entrusted] in yo[ur] hand,
lord, your anger is flood [...],
warrior of the gods, you are exalted, lo[rd ...]
lord, your face is the Sun, your locks [Nisaba],
your two eyes, lord are Enlil and Ninlil,
your eyeballs are Gula and Belet-il
your eyelids, lord are the twins Sin and [...],
your eyebrows are brilliance of the Sun, which [...],
your mouth's shape, lord - Ištar of the stars [...],
Anu and Antu are your lips, your speech - [...],
your Mover (= tongue?) is Pabilsag, who [...] on high,
the "heaven" of your mouth, lord is circumference of heaven and earth, dwelling place of the [great] gods,
your teeth are the Seven, the slayers of evil,
your cheeks, O Lord are the rising of bri[lliant] stars,
your ears are Ea and Damkina, sages of wisdom [...]
your head is Adad, who [makes] heaven and earth [...] like a kiln,
your brow is Šala, beloved spouse, who makes [Adad's heart feel happy],
your neck is Marduk, judge of heaven [and Netherworld], deluge [...],
your throat is Zarpanitu, creat[ress of peop]le, who [...]
your chest is Šullat, who examines [...]
your shoulders are Haniš, who establishes p[lenty, r]ains down abundance,
your right side is Utaʾulu [...],
your left side is Ninpanigarra [...],
the fingers of your fists are [...],
your nails are the bright star [...],
your [...] are Dagan, who [...]

Of course Ninurta of such empowerment will simply eradicate all undesirables, Pabilsag is understand as his tongue there. Worth bearing in mind also that the actual satire itself was written by the Catholic Boccalini in Venice, and such would be the generally understood final solution of Catholicism.


a reply to: Peeple

The original thinkers of the doctrine of spiritual self purification retain a good reputation those who followed on and sought to make the world perfect not so much, only amongst themselves.

originally posted by: pthena
So for me Chiron is the visible model of the hidden Christ.

The Wounded Healer archetype is interwoven, naturally, into Jesus and certainly for the Greek audience of the New Testament that was implicitly seen as a path of learning and development that they would have recognised.

With Dionysus, particularly when considering him in relation to the Western esoteric tradition, the key to understanding is appreciating the differences between the Lesser and Greater mysteries attached to him and their application socially. The Lesser is actually the greater mystery, or rather it was then, it is largely utilised metaphorically in the current context of ignition of the 'divine spark' that Dionysus bestowed up humanity through his death at the hands of the Titans. From that perspective, you can appreciate that Jesus, in terms of social and philosophical progression, represents a Higher form of Dionysus, and philologically, their names are related. They are both of Zeus, and twice born. That, however, doesn't make them the same, but it does represent a progression psycho-socially and a refinement of understanding of our relationship towards the systems of which we are a part.

a reply to: Anaana

The Wounded Healer archetype is interwoven, naturally, into Jesus and certainly for the Greek audience of the New Testament that was implicitly seen as a path of learning and development that they would have recognised.

That wounded healer can go all the way back to Prometheus(forethought). He brought the fire to man first. Plus he tricked Zeus into leaving the nourishing parts of animals for human consumption. Prometheus endures eternal torment. The concept of a Prometheus can crop up almost anywhere even without a cultural connection to peoples already having one.
There are very many Christ elements there, "by his eternal forethought, he came to ...", the gifts to mankind, the eternal torment.

There are conflicting accounts about the release of Prometheus, perhaps a cultural dispute between Heracles cult and Chiron cult. I fall into the Chiron camp because once again, the concept of being pre-Olympian enough to have been the tutor for the young goddess and god. Some may say that Artemis taught Chiron to shoot, but perhaps Chiron taught Artemis.

When it comes down to it, Chiron relinquishes his right to a place in Olympus in favor of Prometheus. Chiron ends up elevated so far above that only astrologers can guess things about him. The Christ concept of giving place has been forgotten mostly. It may survive in John the Baptist.

I can't think of anything else relevant. That's about all I've got. Maybe you can help Kantz find the connection with Sumerian civilization. I can't keep the who's who straight. And I don't know astrology.

ETA

I just remembered something:

I was watching a movie with my daughter. She commented to me, "Have you ever noticed, that in these stories concerning "a chosen one" how much of the success depends upon the friends and associates sacrificing themselves for the success of the chosen one's mission; Harry Potter, the Matrix, this movie we're watching now? "

I could even add the Lord of the Rings.

Now I'm crying just thinking of Snape., a completely fictional character.



And when I get to crying, here's my fallback song

a reply to: Kantzveldt
I've got the pdf open and I'm reading it. But:

Consider the cult of Harry Potter, the chosen one.

Only at the very end do people realize who the true heroes are. Lilly Potter nee Evans (mudblood) and Severus Snape (half-blood). Everything depends on Lilly's love for her son and Severus' unrequited love for Lilly. Even though Dumbledore did not save Lilly, Severus nevertheless promised. It all had to be secret. Severus honored promise after promise until he died.

The cult of Harry Potter = the cult of Lilly and Severus.

The whole premise of the invisible Rosicrucian's plan was to plant the ideas of a plan being out there. New stories of love and honor and fidelity are still being written. Myth making continues. As long as people dream we may be OK.

Consider also the Neverending Story, now there's a book I haven't read in a while.

Okay, back to the pdf.

ETA

I guess that shows that I'm at child level understanding mythology. All that grown up scholar stuff just makes my head hurt.

Okay, back to the pdf.

ETAA

Wait! There's more:

And above and beyond and enshrouding the whole epic is the heart and mind of a woman.

Okay, now I'm really going back to the pdf.

a reply to: pthena

Yes that's true enough even super-Ninurta relies upon the support of all the others in order to be their champion, your mouth's shape, lord - Ištar of the stars



sometimes you make me feel like i'm living at
the edge of the world like i'm living at the edge
of the world "it's just the way i smile" you said

a reply to: Kantzveldt
Yeah, Brad Roberts' smile is really something.

I finished reading Ninurta-son of man pdf. Some ideas I have but they may involve some impiety.

Some time may be necessary in order to get into the proper frame of mind in order to carefully and reverently unleash impiety.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Belay that impiety for a bit.

From the mouth come beautiful life bringing words of love.

And out of the mouth flows rivers of living water.

And not to be forgotten, a smile and a kiss.



You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky
as we walk in fields of gold

I am beginning to suspect that the Age of Apollo ended with the rise of Medieval Romance and nobody bothered to tell us.

a reply to: pthena


The Age of Apollo has not ended, that much seems certain, however it seems that it began in earnest even before the publication of the Boccalini satire in 1612, indicating that as one might expect it was targeted against a group already in existence, given the allegorical pilgrimage to Parnassus began in 1597 at Cambridge University.

Parnassus Plays

That Bacon was known as a poet by his contemporaries is proved by abundant evidence. Perhaps the most important proof of the esteem in which he was held is exhibited in the "Great Assizes Holden in Parnassus." The two parts of the Pilgrimage to, and the Return from , Parnassus were produced respectively in 1597, 1598, and 1601. "The Great Assizes" was printed in 1645.

To the lofty mount of Learning, crowned with its temple, the university, prefigured in their dreams as Parnassus, the glorious abode of Apollo and the Muses, the lovers of Learning journey; but find, after experience, how vain have been their dreams, and return to the world disillusioned. In time the fact beams luridly upon their vision that the golden age of literature has past, and is being supplanted by an age of trashy pamphleteers and news-scribblers. The lovers of true literature thereupon appeal to Apollo, who convenes a high court to meet at Parnassus.

Sir Bacon

It seems possible then that the satire perhaps already had the English in mind.

The destination of Parnassus is of course interesting in that it takes into account the survival of Ante-Diluvian knowledge, as the residents thereabouts had been led to safety on it's slopes by friendly wolves and survived the Greek flood, thus the quest is concerned with the search for timeless and Universal understanding, as bound up in the cult of Apollo and Artemis.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

The destination of Parnassus is of course interesting in that it takes into account the survival of Ante-Diluvian knowledge, as the residents thereabouts had been led to safety on it's slopes by friendly wolves and survived the Greek flood, thus the quest is concerned with the search for timeless and Universal understanding, as bound up in the cult of Apollo and Artemis.

That explains a lot. Parnassus is very close to Helicon. So close. So similar yet not the same.

"From the Heliconian Muses let us begin to sing,
Who hold the great and holy mount of Helicon,
And dance on soft feet about the deep-blue spring
And the altar of the almighty son of Cronos, and,
When they have washed their tender bodies in Permessus
Or in the Horse's Spring or Olmeius,
Make their fair, lovely dances upon highest Helicon
And move with vigorous feet"

- Hesiod, Theogony

Athena visits Helicon.
Dionysus, from his site on Parnassus visits Helicon, and Artemis too.

I don't know Bacon. Should I read Bacon?