Simple reason science and religion are incompatible...

originally posted by: UniFinity
this is ignorance at its best.

For example, try to do a simple google search about their beliefs about god or the creator, I dare you!
- Walter Russell
- Galileo Galilei
- Leonardo da Vinci
- Nikola Tesla

Just to name a few of the best ...

True, some of them were not religious but all of them mixed god and science, as they understood that the universe is not a coincidence

You state

ignorance

and then assume that you know whether a historical person's public discussion of religion was based upon what they actually felt in their heart and mind. It is a fact and historically evidenced that voicing of an opinion that was not 'in-step' with the religious 'powers that be' was a life threatening experience. Look at how peer pressure still affects what people say currently and tell me that YOU KNOW something about these people.

To some "Deny Ignorance" is simply a catchphrase; to some it is a way of life and many time a curse. The good news is that it does not seem that you are afflicted with the curse side of things.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

While you mention ancient history, let me ask you this - how do you work out historical evidence that we, humans invented Gods all along in our ancient history?! Today we call those religions mythology, while it is actually based on the same belief principle as current religions?!

To make matter more complicated, we even have evidence of copy/paste between religions and what we call today mythology?!

Can't this just as easily be interpreted as evidence that the gods are all real and showed up at different points in history?

But we are biased against that conclusion, so we interpret it to mean the opposite.

Interesting...

If we like to think about our future, we can't ignore this threat, as we will pay the price if belief ever enters science class.

Belief has always been part of science class. The belief in a human's ability to accurately perceive reality, the belief that physical laws are always constant, the belief in an orderly and comprehendible world...

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
Can't this just as easily be interpreted as evidence that the gods are all real and showed up at different points in history?

Sure, if you like to go that road... sure it would not require too much of a change for people depending on belief and being told what they should trust... But real question you should ask your self is - why are those gods that we know are created by mans and are legends treated any different then current religions?!

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
But we are biased against that conclusion, so we interpret it to mean the opposite.

What conclusion? I love mythology, still have large number of books about myths from around the world. But for example if you like to tell me that Athena really was born fully armed from Zeus head, while in old tradition she actually predates her father, Zeus... please make a thread about it, I will gladly post what I know...

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
Belief has always been part of science class. The belief in a human's ability to accurately perceive reality, the belief that physical laws are always constant, the belief in an orderly and comprehendible world...

Belief is part of religious class, but has nothing to do with science. Science does make some prediction, but even then its not belief, as its based on previous observations. Please note starting post, there is major difference between science and religion. There are also assumptions and hypotheses, but without evidence and observations it can't be theory.

originally posted by: UniFinity
this is ignorance at its best.

For example, try to do a simple google search about their beliefs about god or the creator, I dare you!
- Walter Russell
- Galileo Galilei
- Leonardo da Vinci
- Nikola Tesla

Just to name a few of the best ...

True, some of them were not religious but all of them mixed god and science, as they understood that the universe is not a coincidence

You dare me what? To be off topic? What do you like to prove me? That religion had good or bad influence on those people??

I have a feeling that most of people here think that I have something against christianity, where I always talk about religion and as example of intolerance between religion and science use Islam, which is belief in the same God. I also would use sometimes religions of ancient time...

While we at daring, I dare you to check those names;

* Socrates
* Hypatia of Alexandria
* Michael Servetus
* Giordano Bruno

Again, this is not topic, topic is simple difference between science and religion, and while science.

As pointed here, some scientist still are religious, but to be honest, they can't honestly hold religious belief and do scientific work that contradict their religious belief.




Now, is there a way to make religion and science compatible - in my own opinion, yes there is, as long as religion is taken as part of your tradition. Once belief in nonsense is replaced with belief in science and facts, and religion taken as cultural, spiritual domain that is not explaining things that is not, and has no input in daily life and education, then yes, religion can live very close to science.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
From lyrics one of Tim Minchin's songs - it actually sums up why today we have people not understanding why their so called 'view' of history and science is wrong and ignorant...

Are you saying that science is right.....about everything, that theory is never overturned, that scientists are infallible, to be worshiped?

Wow, science and religion are definitely incompatible, but you worship science as a religion

Tim minchin sings a song about his worship of science and everyone sings along.
Sounds like a new/old religion

You cant and wont see it.

I am a Christian, i believe in science, accept it, just dont think of it like catholics think of the pope, that it is perfect, its infallible, that it is THE answer when its often proven wrong.
Scientists said the world was flat

originally posted by: borntowatch

Scientists said the world was flat

Prove it...

I see that Louisiana knowledge spreads quite well... next thing you will tell us that scientist used to burn people who disagree with them? Good news for you - you can be politician...

To make it more fun, do you know what religion and religious holy book tells that earth is sphere??

I find it hard to understand how anyone with a scientific mind could be truly religious.

Science requires looking at the evidence to reveal what the workings of the world.

Religion requires that you ignore that very same evidence to ensure that the worldview is unchanged. Belief in almost ALL religions is required to be unquestioned. How can the two be reconciled without sacrificing the tenets of one over the other?

Adhering to the belief of a religion (Abrahamic or other single deity religions) means that you can never truly question the true cause and effect of the workings of the world without at some point saying, "It's god's will" and then being content with that.

Never mind all the physics-based arguments against an all powerful deity (conservation of energy and thermodynamics) and philosophical arguments (if he's all powerful, can he get lost), that would prevent belief in that god, but at some point, you have to realize that if god is this infinitely patient and omnipotent being, he wouldn't create such flawed creatures in his image. The human body is poorly designed even by a human engineering standard that it seems silly someone who knows everything to have done it. I have yet to see a scientific religious person explain that without running back to the safety of the argument that it's gods will.

Science is okay with saying, "I don't know" because they'll follow that up with, "but we're looking into it". Science doesn't profess to HAVE all the answers, which is why religion is such a crutch. It makes people okay with not knowing and not even being interested in knowing the WHYS and HOWS of the universe. I'm not okay with that and I'm not okay with religion saying that we SHOULDN'T know the answer to those questions. At the very least, your religion should know that if god gave man a brain and free will, you'd be defeating His purpose by preventing or discouraging others from looking for answers outside of god.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
originally posted by: StalkerSolent

Sure, if you like to go that road... sure it would not require too much of a change for people depending on belief and being told what they should trust... But real question you should ask your self is - why are those gods that we know are created by mans and are legends treated any different then current religions?!

The only deities I can think of off the top of my head that we know were created by man are the Lovecraftian pantheon. The classical deities predate our certain knowledge, to the best of my understanding. I'd throw Scientology in here, but I don't think they worship god(s).

What conclusion? I love mythology, still have large number of books about myths from around the world.

The conclusion that there are a bunch of gods out there, perhaps shrouded in legend but definitely real.

But for example if you like to tell me that Athena really was born fully armed from Zeus head, while in old tradition she actually predates her father, Zeus... please make a thread about it, I will gladly post what I know...

And what do you know about it?

Belief is part of religious class, but has nothing to do with science. Science does make some prediction, but even then its not belief, as its based on previous observations. Please note starting post, there is major difference between science and religion. There are also assumptions and hypotheses, but without evidence and observations it can't be theory.

Did you read what I wrote? I said, "Belief has always been part of science class. The belief in a human's ability to accurately perceive reality, the belief that physical laws are always constant, the belief in an orderly and comprehendible world..."

The idea that belief has nothing to do with science is foolish. As you say, it is founded on assumptions. My dictionary defines assumption as "a think that is accepted as true or certain to happen, without proof."
Golly, it almost sounds like faith.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
The only deities I can think of off the top of my head that we know were created by man are the Lovecraftian pantheon. The classical deities predate our certain knowledge, to the best of my understanding. I'd throw Scientology in here, but I don't think they worship god(s).

We actually know quote well about ancient religion, and what is interesting, some of them point to 'real' people, for a change form current religions. For example, Akhenaten actually made first known monotheistic religion in ancient Egypt and has rules ~ 1350 B.C. He made god Aten... again, this might be good start for different topic.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
The conclusion that there are a bunch of gods out there, perhaps shrouded in legend but definitely real.

You can't be serious?! We might be in trouble, as almost every tribe had its own legends just about origin of world, not to mention all gods... Read some of rare ones here...

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
And what do you know about it?

What is of interest to you... interesting that you did not comment on 2 different stories about them I mentioned... why do you think that is important??

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
Did you read what I wrote? I said, "Belief has always been part of science class. The belief in a human's ability to accurately perceive reality, the belief that physical laws are always constant, the belief in an orderly and comprehendible world..."

It is not belief and I know what you wrote... It is not belief when you work with facts and observations.

originally posted by: StalkerSolent
The idea that belief has nothing to do with science is foolish. As you say, it is founded on assumptions. My dictionary defines assumption as "a think that is accepted as true or certain to happen, without proof."
Golly, it almost sounds like faith.

Science is not founded on assumption, where I said that? Do you understand that hypothesis is unproven science... theory is proven. That is what I tried and failed to point out to you...

a reply to: swanne
I think sparrows and all wild animals understand relativity quite intuitively. All these "advanced common sense" laws that we've "discovered" are pretty natural and built in to animals living in their natural and free world.

originally posted by: SuperFrog
originally posted by: StalkerSolent

We actually know quote well about ancient religion, and what is interesting, some of them point to 'real' people, for a change form current religions. For example, Akhenaten actually made first known monotheistic religion in ancient Egypt and has rules ~ 1350 B.C. He made god Aten... again, this might be good start for different topic.

If you every start the different topic, please PM me, it's interesting stuff.
Also...I was curious and looked up Aten. Looks like he predates Akhenaten.

You can't be serious?!

What's so weird about that? "Hmmm, every culture believed in deities. Maybe they were on to something." I'm simply suggesting that we keep an open mind, and pointing out that the evidence you referred to can indicate more than one thing. I mean, typically the more independent witnesses to a story the more credible it is. I suppose we could just assume that all the cultures that existed before the Enlightenment era were morons, but I think that's a poor assumption, and kinda reminds me of the racially superior attitude the Europeans had towards the "backwards natives" up until recently.

We might be in trouble

Indeed.

What is of interest to you... interesting that you did not comment on 2 different stories about them I mentioned... why do you think that is important??

I don't think it's that important to the point I'm trying to make.

It is not belief and I know what you wrote... It is not belief when you work with facts and observations.

Why not? Why do you assume that our observations are accurate? Can you prove they are?

Science is not founded on assumption, where I said that? Do you understand that hypothesis is unproven science... theory is proven. That is what I tried and failed to point out to you...

You're missing my point here. I understand how science works:

People make observations. People formulate hypothesis. People test hypothesis. People observe results. Hypothesis is accepted/denied based on observed results of tests.

Notice how if people can't make observations, people can't do science.

Notice further how there is an assumption that the observations people make can be accurate and meaningful. Without this assumption, we can't do science.

We can't really test this assumption scientifically, because that would result in circular reasoning.

Get the picture?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
People love to be on teams, to practice the comfort of groupthink, and to have an enemy to rally against.

Meanwhile, science has become something that is used like a club by atheists to beat the religious up with, choosing to make fun of them and belittle their beliefs.

Obviously, the result of this will be religious people withdrawing into groupthink and rallying against their attackers.

Funny how people put so much faith in ALL science, as if it is all governed by some legit across the board thing that just cannot be messed with.

I call that a religion.

Science itself can claim to be whatever it wants, change its tune on a whim, and offer no real proof of so many of its facts.

I would wager that religionists are in control of science, and that is what makes me so sick and tired, way too many people who view it as something that is good and TRUE.

originally posted by: swanne

originally posted by: Klassified

Agreed. But does that necessarily and automatically translate to deity(god)?

Magic is simply science which more primitive minds cannot understand. By extrapolation, the "gods" of the ancients may very well simply be being(s) which have evolved further than us.

That extrapolation is indeed as confined as any we can see.

The need to believe in EVOLVING appears to be even worse than all the religions put together, it assumes so many things which may be entirely WRONG.

Imagine, if you unlearned all of evolution , and were able to seek with a free mind.

I bet you would see things a lot differently.

OP nailed it.

Another way to look at it is science is all about logic and observation, and the people who are scientists are more logic based.

Religion is all about blindly believing a whole ton of things that don't make any sense at all. Logical people (generally scientists or STEM people) tend to look at religion and immediately see that it doesn't make sense.

It's also been proven that as people become more educated, they move away from religion. This is because educated people are much harder to brainwash and look at things logically and know that religion makes no good sense.

The first lesson in the Old Testament (the foundation of Islam, Judaism and Christianity) is to NEVER eat from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE.

The reason for this is that Church leaders know that as you get educated, you move away from religion.

A GOD would know that subjugation is much, much easier when you have an idiotic uneducated population that will believe bed time stories as facts.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Spirituality > faith. It's sad that people still don't realize that Christianity is religion but religion isn't Christianity. Someone needs to open their mind to what's out there because science, spirituality, history, and math are all intertwined if you look in the right places.

originally posted by: babybunnies

Another way to look at it is science is all about logic and observation, and the people who are scientists are more logic based.

Religion is all about blindly believing a whole ton of things that don't make any sense at all. Logical people (generally scientists or STEM people) tend to look at religion and immediately see that it doesn't make sense.

What makes you think scientists/STEM people are more logically based? They tend to be educated in extremely narrow technical fields, with no room for differing views and no real sense of historical context.

I'd expect the best logicians to be philosophers, BTW, because logic is actually the language of their profession, unlike scientists, who are rigorously schooled in the scientific method but not necessarily formal logic.

It's also been proven that as people become more educated, they move away from religion. This is because educated people are much harder to brainwash and look at things logically and know that religion makes no good sense.

Educated people are harder to brainwash? That would be news to the Communists.

The first lesson in the Old Testament (the foundation of Islam, Judaism and Christianity) is to NEVER eat from the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE.

OF GOOD AND EVIL.

The reason for this is that Church leaders know that as you get educated, you move away from religion.

Is this the Islamic Church, or the Catholic Church, or the Orthodox Church, or the Jewish Church, or the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, or the Methodist Church, or the First Baptist Church down the road?

A GOD would know that subjugation is much, much easier when you have an idiotic uneducated population that will believe bed time stories as facts.

So, this God is telling people bedtime stories that He exists?

originally posted by: FinalCountdown
a reply to: swanne
I think sparrows and all wild animals understand relativity quite intuitively. All these "advanced common sense" laws that we've "discovered" are pretty natural and built in to animals living in their natural and free world.

One would assume that includes the 'human form' in ALL of its deficiencies as well.

a reply to: borntowatch

Are you saying that science is right.....about everything, that theory is never overturned, that scientists are infallible, to be worshiped?

Building straw men again? So you can tear them down? No one in this thread has said that.

...that it is THE answer when its often proven wrong.

Often? In comparison to what?
Proven wrong? Yes, occasionally. Usually by scientists themselves.

Scientists said the world was flat.

Actually, no they didn't. A flat earth has not been a widely held belief since before the 6-7th century BC.

a reply to: notmyrealname

Yes I agree with you about peer pressure for most people, this is true. But I am of opinion that some people don't budge no matter what and I think that all of the mentioned people were like that and it is because of this, that they achieved what they did.

And to disregard it like you did, that nobody knows what they really thought, well you can spin it like that for everything and everyone - were not mind readers. You must take into account what is known and build your opinion from there. And all of them showed faith in their works in one way or another. Peer pressure and such are just excuses and denying of what is known.

for instance:
- Leonardo da Vinci:
man of reason, hardcore scientist, one of the smartest man. Religious no, existence of creator yes. Think otherwise? well his poems and other works make it clear where he stands. And he was publicly against religion and blind faith!

- Galileo Galilei:
he even died because of his stand and opinion. Who would go that far today? He denied some of the Christian dogma but he was sure of a god and had a lot of faith. Peer pressure? not in his dictionary


a reply to: SuperFrog
Dare was not for you specifically, it was for everybody who is saying that science and god don't mix. That is clearly false.

Yes, you worded that very nice. And thank you for elaborating to make things clear and I just wanted to expose that man of grand stature had faith in god and that they were not atheist. But were also not religious. Just like you say.

So I think that we understand each other just fine. But other people like to put everything in boxes, like if someone is a scientist then they surly must be atheist. Because god is false. That stance is very narrow, but many are thinking like that.
Where is the open mindedness? And as a scientist who is an explorer of nature, that for sure is a limiting stance. In my opinion they are the ones who should be most open minded and they should leave all doors open, because they are exploring the reality.

But what are we seeing today in mainstream? It is so far from such simple truth as sky is distant from earth. And threads like this one are just making it easier to widen this gap, we should try to come together, not fall apart.

You know what is interesting though? There are scientific facts recorded in the bible. Like when it came to health, long before regulations existed and people even knew what germs were it was written in the scriptures inspired by the creator how to handle dead bodies and feces because of disease, which there were no secular text books on such enlightened info like this in that time. I mean cleopatra used to put poop in her vagina as a contraceptive for goodness sakes! (Isaiah 11:19-22;Deuteronomy 23:12-14) These are all scientifically correct practices, down to the microbiology. Natural water cycle was acknowledged without a college teaching anyone. (Ecclesiastes 1:7). The earth's shape(before humans even knew it's actual shape cough* Columbus cough*) [Isaiah 40:22], how the earth is suspended on it's own in space (Job 26:7). Kind of interesting coming from people who couldn't fly in space and look down on the earth. Kind of epic knowledge unless they were inspired by someone knowledgable of these things...

originally posted by: TheCretinHop
You know what is interesting though? There are scientific facts recorded in the bible. Like when it came to health, long before regulations existed and people even knew what germs were it was written in the scriptures inspired by the creator how to handle dead bodies and feces because of disease, which there were no secular text books on such enlightened info like this in that time.

If you studied previous civilizations you would learn that they actually know much more, not just about germs, but even what everything is made of - atoms, long before first microscope. No one denied that some wisdom did not end up in bible, but we know for earlier examples for even more complex wisdom... and had nothing to do with religion.... actually knowledge got lost DUE TO religion, but that is whole other topic...

Greek philosophers Leucippus and Democritus first developed the concept of the atom in the 5th century B.C.E. However, since Aristotle and other prominent thinkers of the time strongly opposed their idea of the atom, their theory was overlooked and essentially buried until the 16th and 17th centuries. In time, Lavoisier’s groundbreaking 18th-century experiments accurately measured all substances involved in the burning process, proving that “when substances burn, there is no net gain or loss of weight.” Lavoisier established the science of modern chemistry, which gained greater acceptance because of the efforts of John Dalton, who modernized the ancient Greek ideas of element, atom, compound, and molecule; and provided a means of explaining chemical reactions in quantitative
Source: sciencenetlinks.com...

You see that gap in knowledge, there is very simple explanation for it...



Do we have to go through all of those??

originally posted by: TheCretinHopI mean cleopatra used to put poop in her vagina as a contraceptive for goodness sakes! (Isaiah 11:19-22;Deuteronomy 23:12-14)These are all scientifically correct practices, down to the microbiology.

Isaiah 11:19-22 tells about revengeful god who striking people who don't acknowledge them... not sure what that has to do with topic or even what you posted before, unless you think that was good enough reason for God to go into revenge mode and also kill all firstborn. Do you ever think how wrong this is??
Deuteronomy 23:12-14 - this was actually common knowledge among ancient civilizations... What do you think how did humans survive before religion??

originally posted by: TheCretinHop
Natural water cycle was acknowledged without a college teaching anyone. (Ecclesiastes 1:7).

Really? But its not even correct as its missing one major thing - how?!

originally posted by: TheCretinHop
The earth's shape(before humans even knew it's actual shape cough* Columbus cough*) [Isaiah 40:22], how the earth is suspended on it's own in space (Job 26:7). Kind of interesting coming from people who couldn't fly in space and look down on the earth. Kind of epic knowledge unless they were inspired by someone knowledgable of these things...

Actually, just for your info, earth is not shaped in circle, and also for you knowledge Isaiah is not talking about earth shape, but about where in sky god's throne is. Today we know there is no throne in the sky, don't we? This also shows that you are not aware that old Greeks end Egyptian not only KNEW that earth is sphere, but Eratosthenes even measured radius and circumference of Earth and he lived 300BC?! I wrote about him in different topic, if you interested, please read here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please note, discussion here is different approach between religion and science. Please use appropriate topics if you like to talk about knowledge lost due to religion or perhaps you like to point what you call microbiology... yet that really was not that...