Large Hadron Collider captures incredibly rare particle decay for the first time

Hello ATS,

It sppears that new discoveries are still being made at the LHC after its 2 year hiatus. This new finding seems to support the Standard Model of physics however, it still doesn't some of the mysteries within; what is gravity? where does Dark Matter come from, etc......?

For the first time, scientists at CERN have observed extremely rare leftovers from subatomic particles. The observations support a fundamental theory of particle physics, according to a paper published today in the journal Nature. It's hoped that the research will help guide future investigations into dark matter and other phenomena that the Standard Model of particle physics cannot explain. The findings are based on data collected between 2011 and 2012 at CERN's Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in Switzerland.

Particle decay occurs when elementary particles spontaneously transform into other elementary particles. In the LHC experiments, protons collided at high energy to create 1 trillion particles known as neutral B mesons, some of which then decayed into pairs of oppositely charged muons — heavier "cousins" of electrons. The decay of one type of B mesons, known as "strange" mesons, occurred at the same frequency predicted by the Standard Model (about four in 1 billion), with a confidence level high enough to qualify as a discovery. The decay of non-strange B mesons also aligned with Standard Model predictions (about one in 10 billion), albeit at a lower confidence level (99.7 percent).

Pretty exciting stuff based on what I gather from the article; scientists are gaining newer insight(s) into particle physics which may or may not explain Dark Matter, Gravity, or any other unanswered questions bur which may lead us into even newer realms of understanding. That's my 2 cents. What says ATS?

www.theverge.com...

a reply to: lostbook

Well, a win for the Standard Model.

Still having some tricks up its sleeves, this model has. I am not one who thinks the SM is complete but I must admit it keeps being confirmed by new discoveries.

S&F for the info.

i,m not convinced what they say cause what they think they know turns out that what they thought wasn,t quite true,if that makes any sense lol

everything they thought about moons ect about other planets have had to be reavaluated and i,m sorry but this big bang theroy i just can,t except.

its basicly we don,t have a clue so we,ll just come up with something and hope everyone buys it if you ask me.

originally posted by: lostbook
Hello ATS,

It sppears that new discoveries are still being made at the LHC after its 2 year hiatus. This new finding seems to support the Standard Model of physics.

Head on collisions are like that, speed variance being a factor. Creating the new out of the old, out of the new.

When I think of our scientists building large tunes and smashing the fabric of matter together to see outcome and results to further predict and evaluate such...

I think of extra terrestrials looking down facepalming!

Haha.. I spent too much time on these boards. . Slow day

Interesting stuff I guess!

originally posted by: Elementalist
When I think of our scientists building large tunes and smashing the fabric of matter together to see outcome and results to further predict and evaluate such...

I think of extra terrestrials looking down facepalming!

Or are they saying, By Jove , I think they've finally gotten it ???

a reply to: sparky31

Um... I could be off base here, but it seems to me that experimental apparatus like the LHC, and a better understanding of the particle physics they can observe using that apparatus, are crucial to discovering the holes in theories that currently hold, about how our universe came about. So if you want the Big Bang theory improved upon, or even surpassed by a better theory, it's the people who work at CERN and places like it, that you want to be paying attention to.

Further more, this experiment and its results have consequences for the standard model of physics, a model which tries to describe the physics which is happening at the deep level in our universe. This particular finding doesn't relate rigidly to the Big Bang. There is more to the LHC than some sort of cut price time machine that looks back into the time just after the notional Big Bang. It can perform a huge array of different experimental routines, for all manner of particle physics applications. You should look into the development and the current work being done there a little. I think you would be surprised at just how versatile and useful the information coming out of the LHC actually is. They run lots of experiments, and there are lots of different bits of kit attached to that collider which have different purposes!

Alas, but let's hope someday some useful practical application, comes out of this contraption, if at all.

originally posted by: sparky31
i,m not convinced what they say cause what they think they know turns out that what they thought wasn,t quite true,if that makes any sense lol

everything they thought about moons ect about other planets have had to be reavaluated and i,m sorry but this big bang theroy i just can,t except.

its basicly we don,t have a clue so we,ll just come up with something and hope everyone buys it if you ask me.

No it isn't. That's not even close to how science works. Enjoy being ignorant.

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Alas, but let's hope someday some useful practical application, comes out of this contraption, if at all.

I can guarantee that lots will. Give it time .

a reply to: Nochzwei

Accelerators in general have tons of practical applications. Medicine, industry, food safety. And I'm pretty positive the data processing network alone has greatly influenced the consumer market already. Much less the sensors developed for the CMS or ATLAS experiments.

I have been saying this for years.

Colliding matter will not create Dark matter or Dark energy. Because it requires a powerful vortex to do such a thing.

I'v said this statement many times, But all the HLC does and will ever do. Is expend energy. As in It will increase the rate of Decay because when particles fire at each other Shatter, then reassemble it takes energy to reform.

At least some of their ideas are meeting in line with my own. As they begin to admit that the, that's all the Particle collisions will ever do is drain energy from matter, where it reforms on the lower spectrum of matter recombination.

And the matter will only exist for a blip of time because energy is required within mass to be stabilized as a particle. Sub-atomic particles included.

Dark energy, and dark matter. Comes from a vortex, which has such strength that not even an explosion can escape its grip. To create a mini black-hole would require tremendous amounts of energy. But not impossible. As it would be required to create a wormhole drive, Which essentially is a black hole generator. The crushing force of a black hole is dependent upon its relative size. A vacuum can persist and hold all mass within a vortex because a vortex is not a solid sphere, it is have an entry point and exit point and a medium point which is where the Hourglass shape thins out into a tiny hole where only the smallest of matter can escape in the case of massive black holes.

However, in a worm hole, or also called an artificial black hole. At point of entry the top closes as you enter encasing the spacecraft in a bubble, which pushing from the top to the bottom of the worm hole. The bottom of the worm hole is the exit point. And it will continue to stretch as long as there is energy feeding the hole, Well the entry point continues to chase the exit point.

This sort of warped bubble chases the exist point which will then become the entry point once the distance desired has been traveled. What this does, Is the bubble pushes away dark matter and energy from around the vortex.

This means the craft can travel in frictionless time and space. Faster than light. Since light is limited in speed by magnetic formation of the particle itself. Thin layers of magnetic rings are what holds mass together.

Magnetic force comes in 3 basic elementary energy outputs, Positive negative and neutral. There are more forces that simply Positive negative and neutral however these are the basic magnetic forces that Align our universe in coriography. to allow matter to form and repel from one another. See if gravity existed. There would be no method of repulsion from other mass. No way to differentiate from one particle to another. No way for mass to collectively have an ignoring, combining, and neutral partners. Gravity would trump all of mass if it was a literal force. However it is not. Gravity is just a way of describing how these forces together act upon one another.

For instance, if gravity was real. Everything would get sucked into a black hole regardless of distance. Since space itself is gravity-less and objects of mass such as our star would go flying straight to the black hole rather than around it.
The only thing that stops this from occurring, since gravity does not exist. Is magnetic alignment.

Black-holes break down into a mesh of multiple magnetic forces mingling into a blur of multicolored pixels. Or tiny sharded fragments of matter. Each pixel is a particle or remnant of a particle. I say multi colored because each color represents a magnetic force. There is no uniform pattern other than the randomness of the mulch-coloured pixels themselves.

Its the best way of describing it. However matter layers around the vortex. Because Negative force always sits on the outside of matter as it is the weakest of the forces yet stretches out the longest. Which is why you see light swirling around a black hole and why everything else is invisible inside. The vortex, which has enough power to even contain an exploding star as long as the magnitude of the black hole itself is large enough, will contain a huge majority of the matter as Explosion becomes implosion, carried by the current of the vortex. A vortex cannot exist without an exit point.

Which is how wormholes are even possible. Because black holes themselves, like the one in our milky-way near Cygnus Sagittarius also has an entry and exit point. And it all depends which way you are exiting and leaving. Because mass of an opposite nature can enter the Exit point, and exit the entry point. Positive, to Negative charges. Which is what creates the Hourglass shape of a black hole itself. Its all kinda complicated.

But the easiest way to understand it is. In order to enter the smallest point, or the tiny hole within the black hole itself. Is for matter that is expanding to become compressed by implosion. Implosion that forces mass to lodge itself together into tiny mega shards. Unmoving matter. Matter that is actually touching itself rather than spinning. As matter orbits itself in a motorized fashion because of magnetic unification and its separating qualities. We all have felt them. Try putting 2 north together they will repulse. North to south will continue.

If you are confused, Watch this video.



This is why gravity does not exist. Because gravity is just a lazy way of saying matter attracts more matter. And having more matter attracts more matter based on density.

However, magnetic forces are how that matter even combines together in the first place. Gravity is a catch all word for attraction. But if we look at how magnetic force acts, Since repulsion exists. Gravity cannot simply just be a catch all for attraction. Because the Earth itself is filled with lots of particles, Negative ones, Positive ones, neutral ones. And together all of this mass still exists within * Empty* space. So if you throw something up in the air. it will still come down because of the magnetic forces from such matter is pulling and attracting. But will not physically touch each other because of repulsion. Gravity is just another word for the active form of attraction that all mass contains.

I guess it's done so in such a way for those who are learning physics to understand that matter attracts matter. However when used in equations it tends to murk results because it is a rather basic way of understanding the fundamentals of the universe. We cannot just say Attraction is what pulls us towards the Earth because it is not specific. What attraction? The same said for gravity. When creating formulas, we cannot be non-specific because a formula fails when we use non specific coding. The same for a computer program requires very specific algorithms.

Anyways, black holes are large enough to funnel mass into tiny dots. Where the mass is evenly spread out positive negative neutral ect in its most shard like state. Where upon explosion turns to compression, to implosion. which these forces are combined and set into a compressed non moving state. Energy is attempting to be released but cannot because of the absolute state of compression does not allow it to. Matter itself begins to increase the output of energy as it replenishes from not expending. This is the natural state of zero point energy. Because it is sitting at a zero state of movement. Where positive neutral and negative are all repulsing, attracting each other but are locked.

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Alas, but let's hope someday some useful practical application, comes out of this contraption, if at all.

haven't heard one yet....why would 10's of billions of dollars, and tens of thousands of man hours, be used to satisfy the curiosity of particle physicists....something is missing, because governments don't hand out money like that unless there is a big, huge, massive, payoff.....all I have read is that they are "learning about the mysteries of the universe"....bullcrap, can you imagine asking governments for billions, and that would be the answer you gave them for that handout?...get real

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Alas, but let's hope someday some useful practical application, comes out of this contraption, if at all.

haven't heard one yet....why would 10's of billions of dollars, and tens of thousands of man hours, be used to satisfy the curiosity of particle physicists....something is missing, because governments don't hand out money like that unless there is a big, huge, massive, payoff.....all I have read is that they are "learning about the mysteries of the universe"....bullcrap, can you imagine asking governments for billions, and that would be the answer you gave them for that handout?...get real

MR I machines? PET scans? Both borne from particle physics. And yes...governments DO give out grants without the absolute promise of returns. Of which there will be plenty with the LHC.

Deny ignorance indeed. Lol. Is the big machine scaring you?

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Alas, but let's hope someday some useful practical application, comes out of this contraption, if at all.

haven't heard one yet....why would 10's of billions of dollars, and tens of thousands of man hours, be used to satisfy the curiosity of particle physicists....something is missing, because governments don't hand out money like that unless there is a big, huge, massive, payoff.....all I have read is that they are "learning about the mysteries of the universe"....bullcrap, can you imagine asking governments for billions, and that would be the answer you gave them for that handout?...get real

Yeah might want to do some research and come out from under that rock

-HTTP developed to allow information to be shared easily in a fixed protocal between different institutes collaborating with CERN... pretty sure you have seen those lovely letters http in front of a 'few' websites
-EVO - Closs platform conference and phone meeting software, used by many international groups.
-Large scale data storage and transfer and computing - While we all talk about the 'cloud' and 'cloud computing' some of the early work addressing the questions "What do we do if we generated an extreme amount of data and need to distribute it and perform analysis on it using many thousands of computers?" Well that question was answered with GRID, this technology is extremely close to what we all know and love to day in cloud. Pretty sure there were some other outside influences on it, but GRID was a BIG part of showing it to be possible.
- Tools for optimizing medical instruments and devices, in GEANT4 and ROOT
- Making sure Airlines don't over dose their work force from costmic rays - FLUKA
- Harsh environments in these detectors allow the advance of Radiation hard electrical systems - Extremely important for material science, development of materials for Fusion reactors for example.
- IMB worked extensively with CERN and have developed silicone technologies that have trickled down to the consumer. Early computing was largely pushed forward by, Aerospace, defense, nuclear research and Particle Physics. These people are the only ones interested in computing back in the day... thanks to this early interest we have extremely powerful computers. Today it is driven more by media, but science picked up that early tab.
- Development of ultra fast electronics largely in response to faster and faster requirements to process data. Ultra high frequency clocks, and high throughput processing trickle down easily to the consumer where appropriate.
-NMR, both the powerful pulsed magnets and the detectors required to make this technology possible have roots in particle physics/nuclear physics
-PET, As above, in fact the technologies are identical to those used in real experiments today.
-Medical isotope production via transmutation
-Hadron Therapy
-Art conservation, using fluorescence spectroscopy


The list could go on, also billions? You know that science is extremely underfunded in general. And if you take America as an example, the estimated loss of tax revenue due to church being exempt is about double what the LHC cost... and that cost was spread over about 15 years and donated by many nations. The other little fact is that American's spend about 100billion on Beer per year. nice tax revenue... but if people decided to drop 1 in 5 drinks and donate that money, America could fund an its own LHC.

Truth is, science is extremely cheap, and scientists in general are not wealthy people, but some of the hardest working people in the world, who routinely work somewhere between 12-16 hours a day 7 days a week for pay that is probably half of what the outside academic income should be, for the level of skills and the hours put in. SOoooo when I hear people throw comments out like particle physics is rich and the scientists are all fast car driving wastes of space... i simply have to say... No, don't be so ignorant.

The result itself is an example of a predicted process that is extremely rare. It is a 2nd or 3rd order process that is heavily suppressed, or predicted to be by the standard model

it is B and Bs decay to a mu anti mu pair. This process is very rare for many reasons, namely that the B will more favourably decay to other heavy species, along with produce hadronisation jets. The decays of heavy species to comparatively lighter leptons is thus rare. (There is a lot of other things too it, but the take home message is that the standard model of particle physics predicts that only 1 in 10 billion B mesons decay via this channel)

This goes back to statements iv made before in regarding how well the SM works and how any alternative theories or models should be able to match the SM for its predictive ability. This is a model that predicts observables to an accuracy of 10^9, which is extremely impressive.

What makes it more impressive is that CMS and LHCb are very differently designed detectors, CMS being somewhat a standard barrel detector, while LHCb is designed almost like a beam dump. The detector wrapped around the beam line extremely tightly and is designed around capturing events occurring with high momentum along the beam line. This allows them to select a very specific region of particle production and allow a very good sample of B meson production and decay observation close to the beam line.

LHCb has also participated in some of the proton - ion collisions. It does not participate in ion-ion runs since the radiation damage to its systems would be extremely high

Congratulations to the CMS and LHCb collaborations

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Alas, but let's hope someday some useful practical application, comes out of this contraption, if at all.

There will be many. Dont worry