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CIA Myth that Torture Led to Bin Laden Is Finally Dead

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posted on May, 13 2015 @ 02:48 PM
link   
investmentwatchblog.com...



Pulitzer-prize winning reporter Seymour Hersh’s new report shreds the CIA’s claim that torture led the U.S. getting bin Laden. Specifically, Hersh reports – and NBC news confirms – that it was not information gained through torture which pinpointed Bin Laden’s location. Rather, it was a voluntary tip from Pakistani intelligence.


High-Level U.S. Officials Debunk CIA Claims About Bin Laden
"...former CIA director Leon Panetta, current CIA director John Brennan (when he was White House deputy national security advisor), former SecDef Donald Rumsfeld, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator John McCain and many others say that torture did NOT help get Bin Laden." ~ CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture - Posted on April 8, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog



...Senate Intelligence committee report says that torture didn’t lead to the capture of Bin Laden. The CIA claims that the Senate report is wrong, and pushes its message out through news interviews, pro-torture propaganda tv shows such as 24, pro-torture movies like Zero Dark Thirty and video games. But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did not help get Bin Laden.


In reality: Cheney and Rumsfeld were never very interested in capturing Bin Laden. Their focus was elsewhere. So their revisionist statements about the usefulness of torture for intelligence purposes must be taken with a grain of salt. In reality, their torture program was crafted to justify endless war, not to catch Bin Laden.


edit on 13-5-2015 by wasaka because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 13 2015 @ 03:57 PM
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But the establishment said so


Too easy too use propaganda to sway perception of those being fed the propaganda..

Meanwhile cloak and dagger tricks behind the scenes while pushing obvious agendas, using things like Alqueda and ISIS to feed the illusion a little longer, occupy the minds with disgust and fear...

BAM!

Agenda closer to completion. Or world war. Unless that's part of the agenda.

In crazy don't listen to me.

*puts on tinfoil hat*




posted on May, 13 2015 @ 04:21 PM
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Third thread now on this in the same forum

I would give links but am on ma tablet



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 05:25 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Third thread now on this in the same forum

I would give links but am on ma tablet


The subject here has to do with TORTURE....

did it help America capture Enemy #1

answer: no, it did not



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 05:59 AM
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Cool.

Now I want a George Lucas-style director's cut of Zero Dark Thirty.
Got to make the propaganda fit the narrative.

Maybe with a 20 minute extended scene of Jason Clarke getting blubbery 'cause they took away his monkeys to humanize the (monstrous, torturing) character.



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 07:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: wasaka
investmentwatchblog.com...



Pulitzer-prize winning reporter Seymour Hersh’s new report shreds the CIA’s claim that torture led the U.S. getting bin Laden. Specifically, Hersh reports – and NBC news confirms – that it was not information gained through torture which pinpointed Bin Laden’s location. Rather, it was a voluntary tip from Pakistani intelligence.


High-Level U.S. Officials Debunk CIA Claims About Bin Laden
"...former CIA director Leon Panetta, current CIA director John Brennan (when he was White House deputy national security advisor), former SecDef Donald Rumsfeld, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator John McCain and many others say that torture did NOT help get Bin Laden." ~ CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture - Posted on April 8, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog



...Senate Intelligence committee report says that torture didn’t lead to the capture of Bin Laden. The CIA claims that the Senate report is wrong, and pushes its message out through news interviews, pro-torture propaganda tv shows such as 24, pro-torture movies like Zero Dark Thirty and video games. But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did not help get Bin Laden.


In reality: Cheney and Rumsfeld were never very interested in capturing Bin Laden. Their focus was elsewhere. So their revisionist statements about the usefulness of torture for intelligence purposes must be taken with a grain of salt. In reality, their torture program was crafted to justify endless war, not to catch Bin Laden.



Cue the ATS members who still mysteriously are Bush/torture/Iraq War apologists in 5.... 4...... 3...... 2...... 1.....



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 09:46 AM
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A lot of things are coming out about how UBL was really located.

A question I would like to put forth: has torture of terrorist leaders ever led to intelligence that brought about the capture of other leaders? Or has it increased safety of Nato troops (USA, UK, AUS, etc) by leading to capture of bomb makers or other mass casualty terrorists?



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 04:01 PM
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originally posted by: ArnoldNonymous
A lot of things are coming out about how UBL was really located.

A question I would like to put forth: has torture of terrorist leaders ever led to intelligence that brought about the capture of other leaders? Or has it increased safety of Nato troops (USA, UK, AUS, etc) by leading to capture of bomb makers or other mass casualty terrorists?


"America doesn't torture."

That is all you need to know. Move on...



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: wasaka

Hersh's report is full of crazy stuff. I doubt it will survive much longer.
Look if your source is some blog it doesn't really hold a lot of credence. Negative flag for me.


Obviously torture works. Anyone who says otherwise is really dumb. Not saying it's the right thing to do but it obviously will work.


V



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 06:24 PM
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originally posted by: Variable
a reply to: wasaka

Obviously torture works.

Anyone who says otherwise is really dumb. Not saying it's the right thing to do but it obviously will work.


Yes, it obviously works...

...if your goal is to create more enemies.
...if you have taken leave our your conscious.
...if you are morally bankrupt.
...if you value the valueless
...if you are a wormonger

and

...if you think ONLY dumb people say otherwise.

FACT: TORTURE did not help us find OBL.

Remember this: "America is great because America is good."
Remember the second half: "When America ceases to be good,
then America will cease to be great."

That day has come... and karma will follow.



edit on 14-5-2015 by wasaka because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 06:35 PM
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originally posted by: Variable
a reply to: wasaka

Hersh's report is full of crazy stuff. I doubt it will survive much longer.
Look if your source is some blog it doesn't really hold a lot of credence. Negative flag for me.


Obviously torture works. Anyone who says otherwise is really dumb. Not saying it's the right thing to do but it obviously will work.


V


You couldn't have a more incorrect post.

Firstly, Syemour Hersh doesn't report something unless it has two independent, verifiable sources, he has more "scoops" than Kellogg's. That's not to say, he himself isn't a puppet being controlled by strings.

Further, people will say anything to stop torture. Hell some people will take blame just to stop the accusations. So.....explain to me how that's reliable.
edit on 14-5-2015 by Rosinitiate because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-5-2015 by Rosinitiate because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: Variable
a reply to: wasaka


Obviously torture works. Anyone who says otherwise is really dumb.



Well then, the CIA leadership is really dumb, they admit it doesn't work.



But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did NOT help get Bin Laden.

In 2011, John Brennan agreed: "White House deputy national security advisor John Brennan Tuesday knocked down the myth that waterboarding provided crucial intelligence that led to the location of Osama bin Laden."

“So we’ve been talking about the different details and methods that lead up to this moment, and obviously there is word out today that waterboarding played a very big role or role in actually getting the information,” MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski told Brennan. “Is that the case?”

“Not to my knowledge,” Brennan explained.

Brennan is now the current director of the CIA.

www.washingtonsblog.com...



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 07:50 PM
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a reply to: wasaka




Well then, the CIA leadership is really dumb, they admit it doesn't work.


Panetta said "it" did help. Link


"Enhanced interrogation techniques" were used to extract information that led to the mission's success, Panetta said during an interview with anchor Brian Williams. Those techniques included waterboarding, he acknowledged.



This "blog" you found is based on Hersh's story. Why didn't the NewYorker publish his story? Because it flies in the face of provable facts. Almost all of it is from one unnamed source and his corroboration is from other unnamed sources. He seems to be a big fan of the Pakistani sources and prowess. CNN's Bergen shot a whole lot of holes in the story pretty easily. If you want delve into it all you can here.

V



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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a reply to: Variable


In reality, top interrogation experts (both conservative and liberal)
agree that torture is an ineffective interrogation method which
leads to false, unusable information, a few links follow:

Head of the CIA’s National Clandestine Service: No Loss of Intelligence Since We Stopped Waterboarding
www.washingtonsblog.com...

General Petraeus: Torture is Unnecessary, Hurts Our National Security and Violates Our American Values
www.washingtonsblog.com...

Former British intelligence chairman all but calls Bush liar, says waterboarding didn’t stop terror plots
www.rawstory.com...

Homeland Security Chief: We Were Wrong to Torture
georgewashington2.blogspot.com...

Top Interrogation Experts Agree: Torture Doesn’t Work
www.washingtonsblog.com...

Its Official: Torture Doesn’t Work
georgewashington2.blogspot.com...

Torture REDUCES National Security
www.washingtonsblog.com...

One of the Military’s Top Interrogators Says Torture Cost Hundreds ‘If Not Thousands’ Of American Lives
georgewashington2.blogspot.com...

Why We’re Losing the War on Terror
www.washingtonsblog.com...

Nice Work Creating New Terrorists, You Morons
www.washingtonsblog.com...

Moreover, the type of torture used since 9/11 was
a special type of torture specifically aimed at creating
false confessions:

Senator: Government Used Communist Torture Techniques Aimed at Extracting FALSE Confessions
www.washingtonsblog.com...

Humanitarian Aid Worker: Torture Only Stopped When I Pretended I Was In Al Qaeda
www.washingtonsblog.com...


edit on 14-5-2015 by wasaka because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 08:22 PM
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a reply to: Rosinitiate




Further, people will say anything to stop torture. Hell some people will take blame just to stop the accusations. So.....explain to me how that's reliable


You assume the torture is a one time thing and no fact checking is involved. I don't believe that is how it worked. If you read any of the books on what they were doing, it was over long periods of time trying to beak people down and they sent out teams to verify what they said. Not just talking about the Bin Laden raid, but the tactics employed after 9/11.

It does work, it lead to actionable intelligence. Panetta said so,. before all the bruhaha over torture. People gave up other people. Now, you can say, do those people now hate the US? I have no doubt. I would just ask you, if you know a secret, how long could you hold out until you gave up the secret?

Hersch's story is mostly all from one guy. There was a fire fight, did you see the video's? There were people outside the compound when it was happening. The dead went to the hospital. There were people in the compound with Osama, according to Heirsch there was no fire fight and they didn't get much intelligence because the Paki's were hiding him there. All the SEAL's he calls liars...

He comes off as pretty unbelievable in the interviews afterwords. The NewYorker was his magazine to publish in and they declined to release the story. That should be a red flag right away. He also says they were afraid the Paki's would shoot down the helo's, hence they knew bout the mission and let the US walk right in. Do you think the US Air Force is afraid of the Pakistani Air Force? Why did we fly in using a stealth helo that no one ever talks about? A helo the Air Force says doesn't exist but we saw the tail rudder on CNN? Hersch's story is easy to refute.



V



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 08:39 PM
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a reply to: wasaka




In reality, top interrogation experts (both conservative and liberal)
agree that torture is an ineffective interrogation method which
leads to false, unusable information, a few links follow:


A bunch of links proves nothing. There is a certain fallacy in that method of winning a debate since they don't all talk about the same things or same source material. I can post others that say "hold on, in certain cases it works" It really depends on what information you can get. In general torture is bad, we can all agree on that. It is also bad to institutionalize it's use - in general it should be last resort type thing. But if you know someone has a piece of information you need and you can verify it is correct - then it is effective. Say you want the combination to a safe, the location of a hostage, or the location of an IED. These are all things that can be checked. The whole idea that people will say anything to stop torture assumes you don't check anything or they don't know the answer.

If you knew where a bomb was that was going to kill a hundred people in a city and I knew you knew where it was. Should i leave you alone and let the people die? When the people died do you think their relatives would fill your inaction was justified? How would you feel if your family died because we were to afraid of being called a "torturer," that we didn't beat some guy into telling us the information?

I know its a slippery slope. I'm just saying that sometimes it is justified and yes it does work. That is why people still do it...

V



posted on May, 15 2015 @ 06:24 AM
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a reply to: wasaka




FACT: TORTURE did not help us find OBL.


It is not a fact, actually its far from it, all we have is one article.

Let me counter it with another, this comes from a expert in Al-Qa'ida Peter Bergen: Was there a cover-up in bin Laden killing?.

It always amazes me how so many people on ATS lack the ability to critically analyse their sources, you have one source, using one named source, the rest are all "unnamed" and in Bergens article he speaks to the one named source and according to Bergen:



The only source Hersh refers to by name in his 10,000-word piece is Assad Durrani, who was the head of ISI during the early 1990s, around two decades before the bin Laden raid occurred. Hersh portrays Durrani as generally supportive of Hersh's various conclusions.

When I emailed Durrani after the Hersh piece appeared, Durrani said he had "no evidence of any kind" that the ISI knew that bin Laden was hiding in Abbottabad but he still could "make an assessment that this could be plausible." This is hardly a strong endorsement of one of the principal claims of Hersh's piece.


That is the only source that Hersh names also says he had no evidence that ISI knew Bin Laden was in Pakistan....

I am not saying that everything that Hersh has said is rubbish, there is another report this week by NBC claiming that they have heard from another source that there was a Pakistani intelligence officer who walked in to the Embasy in Islamabad for example. However that also needs to be looked at and explored.

However there are a number of reasons to doubt Hersh's account, it is far from a "fact".

Really the ignorance of taking one source (which has been dubious in the past) at his word on this just because it fits into your wider world view is how you breed ignorance, not deny it.



posted on May, 15 2015 @ 10:39 AM
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originally posted by: Variable
a reply to: wasaka


If you knew where a bomb was that was going to kill a hundred people in a city and I knew you knew where it was. Should i leave you alone and let the people die? When the people died do you think their relatives would fill your inaction was justified? How would you feel if your family died because we were to afraid of being called a "torturer," that we didn't beat some guy into telling us the information?

I know its a slippery slope. I'm just saying that sometimes it is justified and yes it does work. That is why people still do it...



This is disingenuous argument.

What we are talking about it not a man with a bomb.
What we are talking about is the policy of the USA
to systemically torture hundreds of people.

The only thing this policy produces is more enemies
and not any real intelligence.

If you want real intelligence, you know other methods
are more effective.

When then do have a policy of systemic torture?

Because we want endless war. That's it.

Torture is wrong. It will only lead America
down the path of self-destruction.





edit on 15-5-2015 by wasaka because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 15 2015 @ 05:22 PM
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originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: wasaka
investmentwatchblog.com...



Pulitzer-prize winning reporter Seymour Hersh’s new report shreds the CIA’s claim that torture led the U.S. getting bin Laden. Specifically, Hersh reports – and NBC news confirms – that it was not information gained through torture which pinpointed Bin Laden’s location. Rather, it was a voluntary tip from Pakistani intelligence.


High-Level U.S. Officials Debunk CIA Claims About Bin Laden
"...former CIA director Leon Panetta, current CIA director John Brennan (when he was White House deputy national security advisor), former SecDef Donald Rumsfeld, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator John McCain and many others say that torture did NOT help get Bin Laden." ~ CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture - Posted on April 8, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog



...Senate Intelligence committee report says that torture didn’t lead to the capture of Bin Laden. The CIA claims that the Senate report is wrong, and pushes its message out through news interviews, pro-torture propaganda tv shows such as 24, pro-torture movies like Zero Dark Thirty and video games. But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did not help get Bin Laden.


In reality: Cheney and Rumsfeld were never very interested in capturing Bin Laden. Their focus was elsewhere. So their revisionist statements about the usefulness of torture for intelligence purposes must be taken with a grain of salt. In reality, their torture program was crafted to justify endless war, not to catch Bin Laden.



Cue the ATS members who still mysteriously are Bush/torture/Iraq War apologists in 5.... 4...... 3...... 2...... 1.....

I'm not apologizing for any politician but you need to understand that NOTHING in war is moral or clean. War is ugly, immoral, inhuman and brutal. If you are offended by war don't start it or sign up and end it quickly.

I do not understand why people want to inject their morals when talking about war. This is like wanting a fair fight because it makes me feel good. War is offensive to me on every level but I do understand what it all about.



posted on May, 16 2015 @ 10:08 AM
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originally posted by: buddah6

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: wasaka
investmentwatchblog.com...



Pulitzer-prize winning reporter Seymour Hersh’s new report shreds the CIA’s claim that torture led the U.S. getting bin Laden. Specifically, Hersh reports – and NBC news confirms – that it was not information gained through torture which pinpointed Bin Laden’s location. Rather, it was a voluntary tip from Pakistani intelligence.


High-Level U.S. Officials Debunk CIA Claims About Bin Laden
"...former CIA director Leon Panetta, current CIA director John Brennan (when he was White House deputy national security advisor), former SecDef Donald Rumsfeld, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator John McCain and many others say that torture did NOT help get Bin Laden." ~ CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture - Posted on April 8, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog



...Senate Intelligence committee report says that torture didn’t lead to the capture of Bin Laden. The CIA claims that the Senate report is wrong, and pushes its message out through news interviews, pro-torture propaganda tv shows such as 24, pro-torture movies like Zero Dark Thirty and video games. But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did not help get Bin Laden.


In reality: Cheney and Rumsfeld were never very interested in capturing Bin Laden. Their focus was elsewhere. So their revisionist statements about the usefulness of torture for intelligence purposes must be taken with a grain of salt. In reality, their torture program was crafted to justify endless war, not to catch Bin Laden.



Cue the ATS members who still mysteriously are Bush/torture/Iraq War apologists in 5.... 4...... 3...... 2...... 1.....

I'm not apologizing for any politician but you need to understand that NOTHING in war is moral or clean. War is ugly, immoral, inhuman and brutal. If you are offended by war don't start it or sign up and end it quickly.

I do not understand why people want to inject their morals when talking about war. This is like wanting a fair fight because it makes me feel good. War is offensive to me on every level but I do understand what it all about.


Because people ALWAYS have an excuse for crimes, war crimes, etc.

The whole idea of passing international laws to stop these, WHICH THE US AGREED TO, is to stop people/countries from violating human rights and the sovereignty of other countries.

To hear you guys tell it, once we leave our borders and war is happening anything goes. That... is not how either ethics nor international law work.

Just about any crime, including those that take place in the US, can be and are justified by some kind of expediency. Your logic is a very dangerous slippery slope.

Once again, we've already agreed to these international laws. Even just from an honorability stand point we now need to follow them.
edit on 16-5-2015 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)



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