It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Russia 'lost 220 troops' in Ukraine - Nemtsov report

page: 8
11
<< 5  6  7   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 17 2015 @ 05:50 AM
link   
a reply to: AVoiceOfReason


well once again ukraine is damn important to russia, if it wasnt they wouldnt be doing what they are doing. so i dont know why you are surprised.


Why do you think I am surprised? I have said all along that Russia is highly motivated to retain Ukraine as a satellite; that is ultimately the motivation for their fomenting violence there. It is you who seem to have the mistaken idea that Russia's involvement there is out of some sort of idealism.


and no they wouldnt have been wiped out, its not a video game.


Correct; actual human beings are suffering and dying. Is Putin's revanchism worth it?


you dont ust loose because you are surrounded or out numbered. it doesnt work that way! name one other ttime in history that this was the case and ill name a half dozen where it wasnt.


What makes you think that this is the Stalingrad and not Constantinople? It is easy for you to cheer them on from the comfort of your dacha, but these are people who are being deprived of their quality of life over some abstract principle that no-one has been able to articulate. Independence? What does that matter to the starving children and the corpses in the street?


lets lay this out. separatism in east ukraine has been fomenting for at least a good decade now.


Correct word, wrong tense. Separatism has been fomented in Eastern Ukraine for at least a decade. Russian Ultra-Nationalists, Fascists, Neo-Nazis and covert agents of the Russian state have created a fifth column. Whole divisions of the Ukrainian army had been taking orders from Moscow, uninterrupted, since Ukraine voted for independence.



when the coup happened more than enough military equipment was seized by the separatists. individual interests started funding and arming the separatists maybe even before russia was.


When Russian Nazis like Pavel Gubarev seized power in Donetsk, that was a coup. Certainly many of the rebels brought the arms they used while they were hiding in the Ukrainian army with them, up to and including BUK missile launchers. They also received support from Fascist fellow travelers in Russia, no doubt.


Ukrainian were selling separatists arms from the very beginning! its not a sports game where there are two teams there are hundreds of oligarchs some who even have their own private armies fighting among themselves. you idea that they would have simply been wiped out because they were surrounded makes absolutely no sense.


It's not a matter of how many different sides there are in a conflict, it is a question of which one controls, what is known in the trade, as the "lines of communication." If a city cannot get food and water, it starves, no matter how noble the populace is. The loyalists will ultimately sever all lines of communication to the Narodni "republics" without overt Russian aid.


and last but not least we have no idea to what extent russia has even helped the separatists. might be a little might be alot. Nemtzov can make all the claims he want (well not anymore he cant) but he doesnt have single shred of evidence for ANY of his claims.


So you don't believe that convoy was filled with humanitarian aid?


just think. thiiiiiink. what makes me so mad about you guys is not that you share an opposing viewpoint its that you dont think. you just spit out whatever western leaders feed you and never look past it. there is so much information to learn about ukraine past what the east or west msm tells us.


You are the one who does not seem to be thinking things through clearly. Time and again I have explained the strategic situation and yet you refuse to look at it clearly.


and no the most humane course of action would be to give the east what THEY want. what is humane about calling them terrorists after they held a referendum and then sending the army to attack them?


When terrorist hold a referendum, the public is afraid to vote against them:



What did Putin do when Chechniya decided it didn't want to be part of Russia any more? Did he call them terrorists? Did he send an army to attack them? Would Chechniya be better off if they continued to resist to this day? Would you give the same advice to Chechens that you are giving to Eastern Ukrainians?
edit on 17-5-2015 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 17 2015 @ 06:08 AM
link   
a reply to: DJW001

thatast point is the only one that made sense. and Chechnya is independent, what makes you think they arent?




Correct; actual human beings are suffering and dying. Is Putin's revanchism worth it?


irrelevant. but it seems what im trying to say usually goes over your head so i shouldnt be surprised.




What makes you think that this is the Stalingrad and not Constantinople? It is easy for you to cheer them on from the comfort of your dacha, but these are people who are being deprived of their quality of life over some abstract principle that no-one has been able to articulate. Independence? What does that matter to the starving children and the corpses in the street?


yeahh they are suffering because theres an army attacking them. and its not the russia army. you realize what your telling me is that the victim is the aggressor. keiv is attacking the west because they brought it on them selves and they should just give up for their own good.




Correct word, wrong tense. Separatism has been fomented in Eastern Ukraine for at least a decade. Russian Ultra-Nationalists, Fascists, Neo-Nazis and covert agents of the Russian state have created a fifth column. Whole divisions of the Ukrainian army had been taking orders from Moscow, uninterrupted, since Ukraine voted for independence.


so it stopped at some point? or russia hijecked it? what? you know i can just blame europe for creating a "fifth column" and brainwashed ukranians with anti russian ideology since about the early 90s to eventually manufacture a revolution to take ukraine for themselves. because they did. hahaha




When Russian Nazis like Pavel Gubarev seized power in Donetsk, that was a coup. Certainly many of the rebels brought the arms they used while they were hiding in the Ukrainian army with them, up to and including BUK missile launchers. They also received support from Fascist fellow travelers in Russia, no doubt.


well if someone punches me and then i punch them back am i in the wrong for defending myself? some fire has to be fought with fire.


im ust gonna stop right there. im pretty tired of this. but look, see! i can fracture what you write and then argue it point by point (sometimes saying things that are wildly irrelevant). this is a trend ive been noticing with you "debunker" types.
edit on 17-5-2015 by AVoiceOfReason because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-5-2015 by AVoiceOfReason because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 06:53 AM
link   
a reply to: AVoiceOfReason


thatast point is the only one that made sense. and Chechnya is independent, what makes you think they arent?


"Limited autonomy" is not the same thing as independence. Their foreign policy is ultimately determined by Moscow. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea were offered "limited autonomy" and rejected it. What makes "independence" worth dying for?


Correct; actual human beings are suffering and dying. Is Putin's revanchism worth it?


irrelevant. but it seems what im trying to say usually goes over your head so i shouldnt be surprised.


Why do you think human suffering is irrelevant?


yeahh they are suffering because theres an army attacking them. and its not the russia army. you realize what your telling me is that the victim is the aggressor. keiv is attacking the west because they brought it on them selves and they should just give up for their own good.


They are suffering because they have been seized by a band of Fascists who threaten the integrity of the Ukrainian nation. The Fascist militias and Russian irregulars are using them as human shields. It is they who are the aggressors, not the Ukrainians who are defending their territory from Russia. Incidentally, Kyiv is attacking Russian units in the East, not West. (I guess you think anything west of Volgograd is "West.") The insurgents should give up for the good of the people, but they refuse.


so it stopped at some point? or russia hijecked it? what? you know i can just blame europe for creating a "fifth column" and brainwashed ukranians with anti russian ideology since about the early 90s to eventually manufacture a revolution to take ukraine for themselves. because they did. hahaha


I realize English is not your first language, so I understand why you did not understand my point: Russia didn't hijack the separatist movement, it created and controlled it. Even the false flag atrocities committed during the unrest in the West were done by order of Moscow. Who has benefited by the actions of fifth columns? Russia or the West? Who has gained the most territory? Russia.

Crimea has been reunited with Russia thanks to Putin's bold use of infiltration and insurrection. You should applaud his strategy rather than deny it.


well if someone punches me and then i punch them back am i in the wrong for defending myself? some fire has to be fought with fire.


Exactly; Russia punched Ukraine in the face by sending its jack-booted knuckle draggers in and seizing its police stations, public buildings, airports and, eventually, cities. Ukraine had no choice but to fight back.


im ust gonna stop right there.


You'll be back.


im pretty tired of this. but look, see! i can fracture what you write and then argue it point by point (sometimes saying things that are wildly irrelevant). this is a trend ive been noticing with you "debunker" types.


Funny... just a few posts ago you told me:


argue the point. be an adult.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now you are acknowledging that I am refuting you point by point with reasoned arguments, but you dismiss things like human suffering as being "irrelevant" and give up.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 10:56 AM
link   
Ukraine says two Russian soldiers captured in east


Ukraine has captured two Russian soldiers in its conflict with separatists in the country's east, Kiev said Sunday.

Military spokesman Andriy Lysenko simply named those captured as "Russian soldiers", while giving no further details.

"Our operatives are working with them at the moment. There is no other information at the moment," Lysenko said at a press briefing.

The Ukrainian Aidar volunteer battalion has claimed it captured the two Russian troops close to the town of Shchastya, which is controlled by government forces around 15 kilometres (about nine miles) away from the rebel stronghold of Lugansk.

On its Facebook page, the battalion claimed the men captured were from Russian military intelligence, or GRU.



posted on May, 17 2015 @ 12:30 PM
link   
I figured i would actually post the report since that is the topic of the thread and it has information on alot of topics.





These public statements Putin has actually signed the annexation of the Crimea and outlined his personal responsibility in the event. It is important to note that, having militarized security operation in the Crimea peninsula and joined to the Russian Federation, the Russian leadership went on a deliberate violation of the three previously signed international treaties our country:

1. "Budapest Memorandum" dated December 5, 1994, one of the articles which read: "4.1. Russian Federation, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act to respect the independence, sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine " 26 .

2. "Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership between the Russian Federation and Ukraine", signed in Kiev, 31 May 1997: "Article 2. The High Contracting Parties, in accordance with the provisions of the UN Charter and obligations under the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe respect the territorial integrity of each other and affirm the inviolability of their existing borders " 27 .

3. "Agreement between the Russian Federation and Ukraine on the Russian-Ukrainian border", signed in Kiev on 28 January 2003 according to which Crimea was and remains an integral part of Ukraine 28 .






Boroday and Girkin arrived at Donbass in early May, after the annexation of the Crimea to the Russian Federation. This Boroday no secret that regularly happens in Moscow and coordinates its activities on the territory of Ukraine with Russian officials. June 16, 2014, he stated bluntly: "I can assure you that the Russian leadership is absolutely correct to understand how to solve the problems of the DNI, and are ready to contribute to this at a very high level. I also know for a long time and I respect presidential aide Vladislav Surkov, who always has a strong support for the NPT. Without exaggeration, Surkov - our man in the Kremlin





August 15, 2014 Prime Minister of breakaway DNI Alexander Zakharchenko publicly stated 32 that the decisive role in the counteroffensive played reinforcements came from Russia, "150 pieces of equipment, including 30 tanks, all the rest - infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, as well as 1,200 personnel staff who were trained for four months in the territory of the Russian Federation. " "They were here admitted at the crucial moment," - said Zakharchenko.




www.putin-itogi.ru...



posted on May, 20 2015 @ 07:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: Plugin
We got tons (at least in Europe) people going to Syria fighting Assad.
Pretty much the same, where some people feel such great ''love'' for something or country they willing to go over there.
Hard to stop that.



Wanting to go fight and then not wanting to but being ORDERED to go by Putin because your serving in the Russian army is a big difference. Should the Russians be there, NO! Should the west? NO!

The problem is, Ukraine has been trying for 20 years to get away from Russia due to the piss poor economic situations alone. Russia did not want them to join NATO so they did not and NATO refused to even offer it but Russia was not helping Ukraine out at all, in any aspect. Russia was letting Ukraine starve, poisoning their west leaning political figures and constantly cutting off their gas. Ukraine then decided they had it with their puppet master from Russia, impeached him TEN TIMES over the year but he would never leave. Ukraine then had no other choice but to remove him by force. Russia caused all of this and Putin is too ignorant and proud to admit he screwed up.

Putin taking Crimea by force was a huge no no. Yeah people want to claim it was part of Russia before, yeah taken by force it was. Ukraine and every one of the Baltic states have defeated Russia before over their conquest prior to WW1 so they have a LONG history of telling Russia to pound sand.

Putin will now have a choice, fight a long drawn out war he cant win or launch a massive Invasion into Ukraine sending NATO into a full blown freak mode causing them to completely mobilize their reserves in a stand off never seen before since the Berlin air lift. NATO just will not tolerate a hundred thousand Russians moving west ever again. Can they stop him from Taking western Ukraine, Only if Poland fears for itself and attacks south, driving a huge wedge in Ukraine causing Putin to risk everything or stop.



posted on May, 22 2015 @ 06:10 PM
link   
a reply to: Patriotsrevenge

He can't invade Ukraine for one can't afford to. They don't have the money to pay for it in the budget. Having problems maintaining what they have there now. Not to mention he can't afford the costs. Right now Ukraine has started a new tactIc. They are trying to have Russia foot the bill for eastern Ukraine. It wants them to provide everything for the rebel held territories. The logic behind it is simple the people will get upset as society falls apart. It's already starting no food no law and order. And let's not forget no jobs or pensions. This is why if your in a rebel controlled area your checks from Ukraine has stopped.

Russia can't aford to support thsee people. He's already had to go back on his promises to Crimea. So whichever countries own eastern Ukraine is a huge drain on their economy for years to come.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 03:08 AM
link   
 


off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 03:35 AM
link   

originally posted by: cindywu
Every one has their own opinion about this things, we can think about it in a mutual way.


This is from Cindy www.polyurethanesupplierchina.com


But ultimately there is a right and wrong doesn't matter if it's a person or a government. And it's wrong to send troops in an area to kill people So you can maintain power.



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 05:21 AM
link   
a reply to: cindywu




www.polyurethanesupplierchina.com


Here let me help you out...

www.polyurethanesupplierchina.com

Might I ask what you think this site is supposed to show...because I can't seem to find the relation between the link and Russia being in Ukraine?
edit on 23-5-2015 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)


And welcome to ATS.

edit on 23-5-2015 by tsurfer2000h because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2015 @ 08:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: cindywu




www.polyurethanesupplierchina.com


Here let me help you out...

www.polyurethanesupplierchina.com

Might I ask what you think this site is supposed to show...because I can't seem to find the relation between the link and Russia being in Ukraine?

And welcome to ATS.


I think it's just spam-- she's good looking but she looks like a man.
edit on 23-5-2015 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
11
<< 5  6  7   >>

log in

join