Consciousness vs Artificial Programming

originally posted by: Peeple
Now please try to spell consciousness without conscience and while doing so, think about how the fish can't live without the ocean and maybe you'll understand what i am trying to say.

I've seen fish living outside of oceans. I've also seen fish, albeit dead ones, existing outside of them as well.

You can't have real experiences in the imaginery world, because they are unaccountable, not measurable and not touchable.

I wonder if I could convince the people that I interact with in dreams that this place is as real as my interactions with them.

a reply to: daskakik

You misunderstand my point, what i am trying to explain is, we have to get over this judgmental attitude, because the one is not the same as the other. I am not saying it can't be a very educating benefitting experience, even if it is just imaginery=in your brain, your own conscience-cloud, I am just saying it is alot different than reality and to be beneficial, both have to be given room and merit. But the approach it is either the one or the other and this is then the only truth is contra-productive. If i have a reality that doesn't allow me to dream it is not good and will fail to evolve further, if i barrier myself in a imaginery simulated illusion, i will become disfunctional in reality.
And i won't tell you how deliberately misunderstanding metaphors won't get us very far in this discussion...

originally posted by: Unity_99
Everyone has to escape it, because bodies are hitting the ground and this is unbelievably insane, people need positive environments to grow, and remember that, remember much better places or existence than here.

Who is the one who needs to escape it? Our physical bodies are not going to escape this realm - our bodies obviously die here, sooner or later. So are you assuming you are some soul or mind entity that survives the death of the physical body? Who is that one and why the need to escape?

originally posted by: Unity_99
Anyone who thinks its suitable to learn or have their children subjected to this brutality and ritual sacrifice and the russian roulette of the karmic wheel and the trap they have here for souls, or at least they're trying to have, because think that is also a matter of mind, has stockholm syndrome. Its not psychologically healthy to think this is OK.

Yes, I agree that we should transcend this conditionality, but not just because it is difficult here. But why do you think you will be happier in the long run in some "higher" realm? Are you not still stuck with the same sense of separation, even in the midst of what you might consider great and wonderful experiences?

At a fundamental level, are such experiences really any different from here just because they make our sense of separation feel a bit more glorified? Isn't that just equally, if not more, deluding than what we tend to do here in terms of separation, seeking, the desire to escape, etc.?

originally posted by: Unity_99
Freeing everyone you love and interceding for everyone to remember and get back on mission, and interceding that the miracles and long shots happen for every person, is all that matters here, reaching higher mind and out, and getting as many others as you can. The prime directive is to free this planet, that means everyone on it.

Sure, help those you love, and all beings - but all this seeking to avoid our present circumstance is our suffering. We need to wake up in place, not use our precious time and life energy to try and escape from here to go elsewhere. We are not victims here - we are here to love, to discover and live the Divine Reality here.

Yes this place is apparently dense, but if you can learn to transcend life's ordeals here, you will undo the "potential" for returning here. Whereas if you only look at this place as evil or dark, you are not transcending this realm nor undoing the karmas that will have you return. In fact, your reactions to this world, reinforce those potentials because you are giving them energy - plus, this certainly does not help the world and others here, in my view.

This is our situation - we can feel victimized by it or we can embrace it fully and discover the means to transcend it in place, and in so doing, bring that heart-joy, wisdom, happiness, and love, inherent in Reality, to all relationships we participate in. The choice is always ours, moment to moment.

a reply to: Peeple

I understood but I was pointing out that we are often quick to label the here "real" and the other "imaginery" for the reasons you stated. If you can't prove the existance of this "reality" from there either how can we be sure that those lables are placed correctly?

a reply to: Peeple

As far as I can tell; your the only one calling it imaginary.. as if some how, you have complete understanding of our brain, what is being labeled as imagination, and consciousness. .

It feels like to me, reading your insane posts, you have lack of experience with your mental faculties.

Thus, you shouldn't be labeling or telling anyone ever, ehat is and what is not. But you feed your ego and deceive yourself, in doing so, obstruct the internal learning experience (self doscovery) of others.

Insanity...thanks for my lollipop

a reply to: daskakik

Someone posted this somewhere else and i feel it applies here too, because it will be exactly about what we are talking about:
The key will be to bring the two together, make them equally applyable in eachother, if you catch my drift.



a reply to: Elementalist

It's okay. I was just trying to explain you something, but i wasted my time. You're still judgmental and just wrong.

a reply to: Peeple

I don't think so. McKenna is talking about space travel while the OP talked about out of body experiences which you said was just imagination.

a reply to: daskakik

And then i said which is not to say, not important or valid for my personal set of experiences. But okay, i leave you two then stuck in square 1.
And if you listened to the whole thing, you might have noticed that he also talks about how it will be a big part of our future spending time in our imagination, due to the long distances and eventually use this abbility for a kind of real-time, psychic-quantum-entaglement communication to back home.
Imaginery only say it takes place in my imagination, that's exactly what he talks about and what i am trying to say. The brains are connected and our imaginery realm is filled with fools looking for spooky stuff, super-powers, or a parallel universe and fail to see it is just another layer of this reality.

a reply to: Peeple

I did watch the whole thing, is it even him saying that "we are going to live in imagination"? and other then that phrase there is nothing to follow that idea up, no how or why offered.

From there everything else is explaining how man stepping off the planet is like birth and how we need to do this for the survival of both the planet and humanity.

Besides, the idea of a simulated universe goes along with what you say but, this reality is the imaginary part of a larger reality.

a reply to: daskakik

Yes and no. That depends on how you define simulated, i guess?
A simulated reality is a harming approach imho, because it creates fatal detachment.
But kind of, like the fish and the ocean and the planet again.
we are definetly embeded in something bigger via imagination. But simulated smells wrong, for both, one could say in liquid dreams i make my own simulation, but you are still following cues from your subconscience, just as in reality, you think you make rational decissions, but in the background your brain is processing pictures you're not even aware of.
And if you follow that back to where it is coming from, i find an alive über-conscience, like a collective global, or universal conscience field, far more likely than an akne-plagued ET playing games. And that leaves no room for a simualtion.

originally posted by: Peeple
And if you follow that back to where it is coming from, i find an alive über-conscience, like a collective global, or universal conscience field, far more likely than an akne-plagued ET playing games. And that leaves no room for a simualtion.

Why would that be more likely than advanced beings virtual slumming with some holodeck type tech?

The only problem that I can see some having is the mundaneness of it but then who is trying to make it bigger than it might actually be?

a reply to: daskakik

Because, in what world would they live in then? Also a simulated reality? By whom? And who are "they"?
Is it not far simpler to assume we can communicate, or are connected in our imagination? And that's why we are besides spiritual gods, also physical animals?

originally posted by: Peeple
Because, in what world would they live in then? Also a simulated reality? By whom? And who are "they"?

Good questions but not much different than the ones left by what you propose.

Is it not far simpler to assume we can communicate, or are connected in our imagination? And that's why we are besides spiritual gods, also physical animals?

I don't think so.

a reply to: daskakik

So you rather assume we are manipulated and controlled, (because this is where simulated leads to,) by a supreme super strange species which are using a holo deck to do what exactly?

originally posted by: Peeple
So you rather assume we are manipulated and controlled, (because this is where simulated leads to,) by a supreme super strange species which are using a holo deck to do what exactly?

I see you agree with the OP, and least this much.

If each one of us is an "acne-plagued ET playing games" then who is controlling what?

a reply to: daskakik

No. If you go back to page one you'd find what i think and why the OP is wrong, imo.

But yes we are the acne plagued ETs and we are in control, mind over matter, as within so without, etc.... And the problem is we don't control ourselfes we project all the s.h.i.t. we get.

originally posted by: Peeple
No. If you go back to page one you'd find what i think and why the OP is wrong, imo.

Corrected.

But yes we are the acne plagued ETs and we are in control, mind over matter, as within so without, etc....

Acne plagued ET's is nothing like "mind over matter, as within so without, etc".

And the problem is we don't control ourselfes we project all the s.h.i.t. we get.

Accepting your idea changes this how?

I'm actually glad to see activity on this thread, because no matter what a person thinks about the reality around them, talking out of the box about it is a step forward in freedom and growth.

An example of this universe and what's going on, this morning driving back from dropping my son off at school, was really in depth contemplating possibilities and probabilities and what we're in. It was on the theme that evil dominates. That a group like Isil could move in on a city of 2 million say, and overtake them, butchering children and selling off infants, just horrendous stuff occurring. Because good can't do what evil is willing to do. So began to think, on the nature of the universe. And belief.

If a person is in a system, a multiverse where you are trying to reach the next level, where the universe is a kind of simulation school, Or conversely, inanimate energies are utilized by Intelligent Animate Energy, to form a school, either way works, and either can still be a hologram and simulation and school, depending on how its constructed.

But if we're trying to reach the next grade, then Power becomes an ultimate test. So like in the Smallville show, which I love, and that superman, I love, who always, when in sound mind and body and not taken over by red krypto, does the right thing, and instead of harming the bad guy, brings out the good in him if possible, and only in actual defense of others or self defense would he use lethal force. He is the ultimate hero, they made the very best superman I ever saw. And superman is my hero. The experiences I have, when I was shown the station by the son, and then my son and I witnessed yet another craft that had a greeting for me, and that was the last experience where I doubted the various ways contact happened. For when pulled into an experience that I thought I could write off, they invariably poked me with quite a stick by showing up, in a way that could be witnessed, or chased by a chopper on several occasions. Now I trust within always. Well that guy, who was one of my regular tactics, looked alot like smallville's superman, only taller, big chested. I called them Rangers, like rescue rangers, and then reversed speech analyzed an account I gave into a microphone on my experiences, and the word Hero kept coming out, thats why I called them hero's because in reverse speech I do. In reverse speech the group that harmed me, was mentioned and the Hero's.

If we are to be good, then we don't choose power, and risk losing but we don't change ourselves and become monsters, and due to this being a simulation, we win something so wonderful that it is only illusion that good loses here.

Then the game becomes, shining light, and goodness and gradually through time, eons, lifetimes, good slowly brings back to life bad guys, through many incarnations.

I see that, thats why outcome doesnt matter, winning or losing a game doesn't matter, but its how you play it or who you are that does.

If however, that's just a big joke, and we're trapped by Saturn and John Lear's moon soul trap that wipes our memories clean and puts us back as slaves to feed them our energy perpetually, then how does that work? Infinity just became finite, trapped in this lower concrete rock like level, and thats all there is, and if there is a Higher Good, it lacks ability to reach in here due to frequency mismatch, and its not able to work an infinitely higher technology to do so?

That brings me back to the ultimate question this morning, what is the most important thing in the unviverse, or existence.

Knowledge.

Why would do they do perpetual soul wipes, if the dark side could? Are they really just needing energy and slaves or are they taking our knowledge, all that we learn in these harsh lessons, that should not exist, and wiping us clean, in the second death over and over again, mind wiped.

Karma is a lie, its a joke. Ie. David Rockerfeller is doing very well thank you, though karma would dictate otherwise. its a ball and chain they put on our minds. Makes sense too since Good is very much like Smallville's superman who always sees the good even in the ultimate bad guy and the only goal is redemption not retaliation. The person learns their lessons and grows up.

On the list of possibilities and probabilities there is a possibility that the dark side is ultimately working for the hault of soul growth by taking everyones lessons from them, the knowledge.

knowledge has to be the top prize, and that means that by growing up and learning from everything, we leave here. Not doing everything, ie bad.

They're like smaug in the Hobbit, sitting on the stores of treasures, all that knowledge they've stolen, but unable to use it really, because you can't get to Higher Mind constructs if you are lower mind, and theft, slavery, abuse of others is lower mind.

That in itself tells me that whatever we think we're in, what kind of universe this is, who is behind creating this negative duality, what purpose it serves, good or bad, if most have a way out, or if most/all have been double crossed, if there are hero's up there to help, and hero' s within ourselves? All the question anyone could have, it tells me that ultimately we don't want to become them. Its not winning and losing but how you play the game. And if they're right, laughing at how foolish we all are, I still don't want to become them. But want them redeemed as well.

a reply to: Peeple

Your seriously way off topic; and I still have no idea what your talking about.. or why your still posting here when your demeaning and POV of my OP was clear in page 1 as you said.

So as I said, insanity.

I find it humorous you actually think you know what imagination is, and where it manifests, as if you have discovered and experimented with it thoroughly.

Me thinks you don't know what your talking about, hence your not making any sense...and repeating yourself (Insanity).

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As for this thread; I want to thank all of you for your exchanges and good input. LesMis, Unity, BB, Das, Peeple and the rest.

To me, this is a pretty good discussion if you toss away the demeaning posts and some forward attitude from some.

I've enjoyed all sides, so thanks again!

I will be making one last thread I've been working on for sometime (piecing together over my spare-spare time), which will be my last authored thread on ATS before my leave.

Thanks again