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NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

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posted on May, 11 2015 @ 11:42 PM
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Looks like the "other thread" that sprung up about this was closed as I was composing a reply so I'll instead post it here.

Why is this even an argument? What does one attempt to prove when declaring that the US was founded as a "Christian Nation?" Should we apply this sort of thinking elsewhere? What else might we conclude from the words and deeds of the FF?

That the US is a country founded on such commendable principles as women and non-whites being at best second class citizens? That genocide is a-okay as long as you market it correctly (manifest destiny)? How many of these "the US was founded as a Christian nation" morons are going to openly call for a return to that or run around expressing the anti-Semitic sentiments of Ben Franklin who said:

"Jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention"

Would they argue that the US was founded as an anti-Semitic country?

At the time the US was founded, 99% of the people in the western world would have identified as Christian. Let's just say that one's options, particularly in public, were severely limited. Why is this even a reasonable argument to have? If the FF all believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, would people be eagerly pronouncing that the US was founded as a country that believed the Earth was the center of the universe and furthermore, that because of this we must all hold firmly to a belief that it is?

Here's one of the sets of George Washington's false teeth, they were state of the art at the end of the 18th century:



If George Washington were alive today, do you think he would be wearing those things? Of course not. Like anything else, George Washington's choice in teeth was subject to the constraints of the time in which he lived. Remember that by and large the FF were progressive thinkers, radicals breaking free from the crippling encumbrances of outmoded traditions (such as landed gentry and inherited titles) and who understood that each generation had an equal right to make what it would of the country they had founded.

Consider the words of John Locke, the father of classical liberalism and a man whose ideas greatly informed the thinking of the FF:

"It is true, that whatever engagements or promises any one has made for himself, he is under the obligation of them, but cannot, by any compact whatsoever, bind his children or posterity: for his son, when a man, being altogether as free as the father, any act of the father can no more give away the liberty of the son, than it can of any body else"

or those of Thomas Paine, whose words more than any other single person's, fueled the Revolutionary spirit:

"We have no occasion to roam for information into the obscure field of antiquity, nor hazard ourselves upon conjecture. We are brought at once to the point of seeing government begin, as if we had lived in the beginning of time. The real volume, not of history, but of facts, is directly before us, unmutilated by contrivance, or the errors of tradition."

We have no obligation to the FF to think as they thought and they would not have expected us to recognize any obligation. They certainly didn't feel any obligation to the past then nor did Americans in the decades following the Revolution. Here's what Alexis de Tocqueville said of us in Democracy in America (1835):

"In the midst of the continual movement that agitates a democratic community, the tie that unites one generation to another is relaxed or broken; every man there readily loses all trace of the ideas of his forefathers or takes no care about them."

I argue that not only was the US not founded as a "Christian Nation," but furthermore, that it wouldn't matter if it had been because the country belongs to the living.
edit on 2015-5-11 by theantediluvian because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 11 2015 @ 11:43 PM
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a reply to: guitarplayer

Do Christians have a monopoly on the word and idea of "God"? Does the word "God" belong only to Christians?



posted on May, 11 2015 @ 11:44 PM
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a reply to: guitarplayer

Ok, I'm not sure how far you're going to go with the whole sodomy law thing or what exactly your point behind it is. I assume you're trying to show that there were Laws such as sodomy laws which were made very early on here at the beginning of America based upon Religious Rules. Christian ones more specifically. I also am not arguing against that if that is your point.

I fail to see how that example translates into America Being a Christian Nation. When I use "Christian Nation" to mean officially "Christian" too, not just influenced by or of a Christian majority.

When I say America isn't a "Christian Nation" it's meant that regardless of even the Founders themselves and their own personal beliefs or religious affiliation, they made a point of promoting Equal and Non-Specific preference toward any Religion in the Founding of America. They did this knowing that this new idea of Government must not fall prey to Religious Authority or it would fail as the others have in the past. That it would fail "the people" both in Government and in Religion.

EDIT: That was a great post theantediluvian!!!
edit on 11-5-2015 by mOjOm because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 12:36 AM
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originally posted by: WhiteHat
I don't know much about US history and I won't argue about that.
But this is what I see: on your national currency bill you have "In God we trust". We all know it doesn't mean Allah.
Most of the US presidents so far took the oath on Bibles.
Christmas is a federal holiday, just like the Independence Day.
In every court of law across the US people swear on Bibles to tell the truth "so help me God".

This is for the official part. For the unofficial stand, I have to see yet a hindu or a muslim elected in any major position in Senat, Congress, US Army and so on.

Well, for an outsider all this looks a lot like a christian country. Right or wrong is another debate, so is freedom of religion. But Christianity....you may call it whatever you want but I have no doubt in my mind that for the whole wide world US is a christian country.


The "Pledge of Allegiance" wasn't adopted until 1942. "Under God" was not added to it until 1954 and that was the result of the Cold War and the "Red Scare".

"In God We Trust" on money came even later, 1956/1957. It replaced E pluribus unum which was the official motto of the country since 1782.

So, unless any of the Founding Fathers were still around during the Eisenhower Administration, I think we can kill that part of the argument.


edit on 12-5-2015 by Leonidas because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 12:40 AM
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Great post

Religion doesn't play an entire right in politics.

I'm open minded to the extreme, but politics does not need to play an entire in the realms of running an entire country...I might not be an US resident, but they do play a major power in the world that I do follow.

Thank you for educating some minorities.
edit on 12-5-2015 by MuonToGluon because: Spelling mistake



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 12:46 AM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: guitarplayer

Do Christians have a monopoly on the word and idea of "God"? Does the word "God" belong only to Christians?


Isn't it curious that the concept of "God" is automatically assumed to mean Christian God by Christian Americans?



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 05:30 AM
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posted on May, 12 2015 @ 05:31 AM
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Isn't it funny that Joe looks a little bit like ... well ... If Jesus had a son ??



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 06:24 AM
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a reply to: pilgrimOmega

How's about I take a crack at splitting an atom? As I was also looking around for My ATS™ de-coder codex to decipher... That was just a stab in the dark...

I will however crawl out on a limb and opine that if it dealing w/the Clinton Cabal, I'd say some sort of Zionism plot and some "channeler" has made a connection and is seen as "God" sort of like The Wizard of Oz "Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain"

*** Your Mileage May Vary ***


(post by truckdriver42 removed for a serious terms and conditions violation)

posted on May, 12 2015 @ 06:39 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 


(post by truckdriver42 removed for a serious terms and conditions violation)

posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:01 AM
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There are many Gods
Religious Gods
Self appointed Gods

God is a conundrum
If there were a God there can only be one
Unless we look at other meanings of God such as natural universal governing laws

As Dave Alan who poked fun at religion used to say
May your God go with you

The founding fathers believed in liberty ... They were not opposed to any who held personal beliefs
They were opposed to personal beliefs being imposed on others IE Tyranny

A difficult and seemingly impossible task ... Yet they laid the foundations for it ... for the benefit of all citizens
It would seem things have gone backward since then
Everyone is entitled to an opinion ... but to impose opinions and personal belief on others should not be tolerated

As such the building may fall but the foundations will remain in tact




edit on 12-5-2015 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-5-2015 by artistpoet because: Typo



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:07 AM
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Nice. Glad this was finally covered on one of these shows. I've been saying this for a while now on these forums. Though it's obvious to anyone who has studied history, which sadly most have not (grade school history doesn't count as studying history, you probably know less history if that is the extent of your history criteria).



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:09 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl
Isn't it funny that Joe looks a little bit like ... well ... If Jesus had a son ??


But Joe is white... He doesn't look like a Middle Eastern Jewish man.



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:15 AM
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originally posted by: truckdriver42
a reply to: theNLBS

More and more in these silly anti Christian threads it sure seems like Christians are the only ones not allowed to have an opinion about what our nation is or is not. Now its what they can or cannot do during election season.

Wtf are you on about? This is not an anti-Christian thread, it's a fact-stating thread and you obviously cannot handle the cold hard facts. No one is telling you that you can or cannot vote for someone religious, the point of this thread is to highlight the fact that the United States of America was supposed to be based on the idea of religious freedom, people should be allowed to believe in what ever religion they want and it shouldn't prevent them for being a politician. Politics should not be merged with religion, it's a recipe for disaster.


Even the pedophile sodomites have a place at the table. All but Christians.. LOL

You really are delusional aren't you? The majority of politicians in the US are Christian and they definitely have a very prominent "seat at the table". It is because of those Christians that the US has slowly been morphed into what I would now call Christian nation even though the founding fathers never intended that to happen. Atheists and agnostics barely have a seat at the table at all and do you see them freaking out like you are? Take just a tiny bit of power from the Christian establishment and they start screaming about "they're not letting us have an opinion", when it actuality you guys aren't letting anyone else have an opinion and you freak out when people with beliefs different to yours actually get into power.


This is, was and always will be a Christian nation... Now that I said that, enjoy your little tantrum...

The only person throwing a fit here is you. Emotional arguments about "pedophile sodomites" is not going to win you any points.
edit on 12/5/2015 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:17 AM
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originally posted by: truckdriver42
a reply to: theNLBS

More and more in these silly anti Christian threads it sure seems like Christians are the only ones not allowed to have an opinion about what our nation is or is not. Now its what they can or cannot do during election season.


History isn't an opinion. It's a series of events that did or didn't happen. And the nation WASN'T founded as Christian nation. Deal with it.


Even the pedophile sodomites have a place at the table. All but Christians.. LOL


The heck?


This is, was and always will be a Christian nation... Now that I said that, enjoy your little tantrum...


Prove it.



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:19 AM
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a reply to: truckdriver42




More and more in these silly anti Christian threads it sure seems like Christians are the only ones not allowed to have an opinion about what our nation is or is not.


When did dispeling ignorance become anti-Christian....oh wait.
Anyway, you can have whatever opinion you wish, but you can't change the facts.




This is, was and always will be a Christian nation... Now that I said that, enjoy your little tantrum..


The founding fathers disagree with you.


Treaty of Tripoli


"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president) Joel Barlow wrote the original English version of the treaty, including Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.

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posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:49 AM
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a reply to: radarloveguy

The dinosaurs are still talking... I just don't understand a word of it:



--------------------

Great topic, Joe. As a deist, I can identify with your statement regarding the Constitution of America. There's nothing wrong with believing in a God, but it's a personal belief, should stay that way and has no business as a tool in politics.
edit on 12/5/15 by masqua because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 08:26 AM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: guitarplayer

Do Christians have a monopoly on the word and idea of "God"? Does the word "God" belong only to Christians?

They seem to think so.





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