NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

It's wikipedia for crying out loud.

Is that good or bad?

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
Well this has certainly been an interesting debate - I'll leave you with this one excerpt from Wikipedia:

Nation has various meanings, and the meaning has changed over time.[1] The concept of "nation" is related to "ethnic community" or ethnie. An ethnic community often has a myth of origins[dubious – discuss] and descent, a common history, elements of distinctive culture, a common territorial association, and sense of group solidarity. A nation is, by comparison, much more impersonal, abstract, and overtly political than an ethnic group. It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its coherence, unity, and particular interests.[2]

That's a nice bit of quote mining there!
Further from your source -

The word "nation" is sometimes used as synonym for: State (polity) or sovereign state: a government which controls a specific territory, which may or may not be associated with any particular ethnic group Country: a geographic territory, which may or may not have an affiliation with a government or ethnic group Thus the phrase "nations of the world" could be referring to the top-level governments (as in the name for the United Nations), various large geographical territories, or various large ethnic groups of the planet. Depending on the meaning of "nation" used, the term "nation state" could be used to distinguish larger states from small city states, or could be used to distinguish multinational states from those with a single ethnic group.

Now that that is out of the way, let's cut through the S# and get right to it. Is the USA a secular country or not? If the answer is yes then it is not a Christian nation. Quite simple isn't it? No need to get hamstrung on rhetoric and hyperbole. Just get right down to the meat of the issue. It's a yes or no question. Secular or not?

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Annee

It's wikipedia for crying out loud.

I don't think it applies to this subject.

You seem to have an issue with people disagreeing with you.

a reply to: Annee

You know what, you're right - the definition of "nation" is pretty irrelevant to a discussion of whether the US is a "Christian Nation". You win!

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
Well this has certainly been an interesting debate - I'll leave you with this one excerpt from Wikipedia:

Nation has various meanings, and the meaning has changed over time.[1] The concept of "nation" is related to "ethnic community" or ethnie. An ethnic community often has a myth of origins[dubious – discuss] and descent, a common history, elements of distinctive culture, a common territorial association, and sense of group solidarity. A nation is, by comparison, much more impersonal, abstract, and overtly political than an ethnic group. It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its coherence, unity, and particular interests.[2]

Now that that is out of the way, let's cut through the S# and get right to it. Is the USA a secular country or not? If the answer is yes then it is not a Christian nation. Quite simple isn't it? No need to get hamstrung on rhetoric and hyperbole. Just get right down to the meat of the issue. It's a yes or no question. Secular or not?

Thanks.

That's been my position on it.

a reply to: paperdocto1

The original documentation supports the fact: The US was not founded as a Christian nation, but a religious "freedom" and pluralism nation. Here's one of my long time favorite articles (THE CHRISTIAN NATION MYTH) that, for example, properly emphasizes the DEISM (emphatically not Christianity) of the founders:

infidels.org...

Apologies if someone else has posted and/or discussed the article already.

Today the fact is no less true, except I would classify the US as a primarily Christianity-ENABLING nation, and otherwise very strongly enabling of all (godforsaken-by-definition) religions in general. Can anyone cite an example where an openly atheistic or agnostic political candidate has run for ANY elective office in the US, much less actually WON the election? Has there ever existed a political campaign in this country where the candidate did not court/pander to the religious or "churchian" voters? And yet most absurdly, too many American Christians continue to insist they are "persecuted." That has to be the biggest PUH-LEEEZE of all time!

Christian nation - a nation founded upon the teachings and laws of Christianity. A place with christianity as its state sanctioned religion and the 10 commandments or other christian teaching as the basis of its laws.

A nation of christians - a nation with a majority Christian populous. A nation with NO state sanctioned religion and who's laws are secular.

It might seem like splitting hairs but go try to live in each one, I bet the difference is glaring then. I could live in a nation of christians but I could not live in a christian nation. The fact the constitution states there are to be no laws establishing a state endorsed religion shows that its not a christian nation. A few Christian practices may have slipped in to government over the years but that doesn't make christianity the official religion, its just makes those practices unconstitutional.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal

Thanks for your input here. So, forgetting the OP video for a minute (because that's really just a distraction from THIS discussion), when you say the US is a Christian Nation, all you mean is that, among the religious folks who live here, Christianity is a majority. That's all you mean? And when (and if) atheism becomes "dominant" (or the majority), it will be an Atheistic Nation, and you will agree with that.

Is this true?

I see you already answered that question. Thanks. www.abovetopsecret.com...

If that's the case, I don't have any problem with your opinion. It's those who think Christianity does or should hold a special station, have special rights, or whose opinion should hold more weight than other religions or atheism, that I'm having an issue with.

They're not speaking up, however...

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I wasn't offended at all. You're projecting. I actually thought you were already in possession of this knowledge and didn't really need an explanation. Am I over estimating you?

a reply to: AutumnWitch657

I don't know if you're overestimating me or not. But my question was genuine. I still don't know what those who adamantly claim that "This is a Christian Nation!" mean... If it were a simple matter of population, there would be no argument. If they think our laws should be religious in nature, instead of secular, or that Christians and Christianity should hold a special station (rights, privileges, advantages), then we'd have something to discuss.

But those people seem to be long gone from the thread.

As par for the course, people on both sides of this argument are arguing using the wrong set of litmus tests.
While I am certainly no Christian, or even religious - the United States IS a Christian nation. Not because of what the founding fathers said or didn't say hundreds of years ago. Not because of what the Constitution or Bill of Rights says or doesn't. Not because of what laws say or don't say. Not because of what our money or are pledge says or doesn't say.
Not because of any of the current arguments.
The United States is a Christian NATION because of one simple fact - Christianity (and all of it's sects and subsects) is the largest "practiced" religion in the country. Period.

originally posted by: MrPlow
The United States is a Christian NATION because of one simple fact - Christianity (and all of it's sects and subsects) is the largest "practiced" religion in the country. Period.

Would there be 34 pages of argument if everyone thought that's what the phrase means? Clearly, there are people who think it's got a "deeper meaning". For example... www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: MrPlow
The United States is a Christian NATION because of one simple fact - Christianity (and all of it's sects and subsects) is the largest "practiced" religion in the country. Period.

Would there be 34 pages of argument if everyone thought that's what the phrase means? Clearly, there are people who think it's got a "deeper meaning". For example... www.abovetopsecret.com...

34 pages...340000 pages....doesn't matter.
The United States is a Christian NATION because it is the largest practiced religion in the country.

na·tion
ˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: Barcs

Logic cannot be applied to any morality. Morals are assumptions. They are axioms. The whole concept of a morality being "hypocritical" dodges the more important observation that no morality stands on logical grounds.

So you think that cherry picking and selectively interpreting certain passages in the same book of the bible is justified for the reason that logic cannot apply to it? I do agree that morality can be relative, but logic still applies based on the concept of empathy. If your actions intentionally lead to the suffering of others, then they are wrong because you would not want to suffer in this way yourself. Basic logic right there. No need for moral relativism, only basic logic and science.

originally posted by: MrPlow

The United States is a Christian NATION because of one simple fact - Christianity (and all of it's sects and subsects) is the largest "practiced" religion in the country. Period.

As another poster pointed out: "A nation of Christians is not a Christian Nation".

It's just not the same thing.

Sure, they are the majority, and majority has the strongest influence. But, the USA is not a Democracy, which means majority does not rule.

Have the minorities been slow in speaking up and interfering with the majorities influence? Yes, they have.

However, they have the Constitution of a secular Democratic Republic on their side. Christianity has been losing most of their legal battles of control.

a reply to: MrPlow

Christianity may be the predominant cluster of faiths in the US, there isn't anybody arguing that. What is up for dispute though is what defines a Christian nation. Even Christians in America can not agree on how to define what a Christian nation actually is which muddies the water even further so one has to look a little harder. You bring up 1 dictionary definitionof nation. However, the colloquial term is also used typically as -

The word "nation" is sometimes used as synonym for: State (polity) or sovereign state: a government which controls a specific territory, which may or may not be associated with any particular ethnic group Country: a geographic territory, which may or may not have an affiliation with a government or ethnic group Thus the phrase "nations of the world" could be referring to the top-level governments (as in the name for the United Nations), various large geographical territories, or various large ethnic groups of the planet. Depending on the meaning of "nation" used, the term "nation state" could be used to distinguish larger states from small city states, or could be used to distinguish multinational states from those with a single ethnic group.

Typically, when referring to the US as a nation, it is in fact referring to a sovereign state ruling over a set geographic territory as opposed to the definition which you have provided. This is the context within which the religious right/evengelicals/republicans typically utilize to drive their point home thus it makes the most sense to utilize that definition when arguing for or against the premise being so in regards to the U.S.

The bottom line is that while we may be a nation with a population who is Christian in majority, we are in fact a secular nation as that is the basis of our system of governance. Were we an actual Christian Nation, we would be Theocratic in nature or in a slightly more benign form, we would be like the UK when the Royal Family was still head of state as they were also the head of the Church of England after Henry VIII separated himself from Rome and set up shop for himself. Under that particular setup, Britain was far more of a Christian Nation than the US ever was. The Treaty of Tripoli cofifies the fact that we are and were, not a Christian nation as well. Following the logic you use in your point of view, the US then is a Democrat Nation as 48% of Americans are either registered Democrats or "lean" towards being democrats whereas only 39% are registered Republicans or "lean" towards Republican Ideology whereas the reality is that we are a Democratic Republic and a secular one at that.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: MrPlow

The United States is a Christian NATION because of one simple fact - Christianity (and all of it's sects and subsects) is the largest "practiced" religion in the country. Period.

As another poster pointed out: "A nation of Christians is not a Christian Nation".

It's just not the same thing.

Sure, they are the majority, and majority has the strongest influence. But, the USA is not a Democracy, which means majority does not rule.

Have the minorities been slow in speaking up and interfering with the majorities influence? Yes, they have.

However, they have the Constitution of a secular Democratic Republic on their side. Christianity has been losing most of their legal battles of control.

I think you made a great argument for why it is a Christian nation. As a nation of Christians, the dominant group is going to hold sway.
Yes, we are a Republic - however, it is still a "Democracy" The elected officials of the Republic are going to be reflective of the majorities positions and beliefs.

a reply to: MrPlow

No, it is a nation of christians. To be a christian nation the country would have to have christanity as its official religion and have its laws based on the Tennants and teaching of christianity. That is not the case. It is just a nation with more christians rather then other religions. That makes it a nation of christians with secular laws and NO official religion.

ETA: the establishment clause, specifically the part about not preferring one religion over another show america is not founded on any religion and is therefore not a christian nation.

en.m.wikipedia.org...