NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: AutumnWitch657

I know. That's why I mentioned them. The Puritans were also Christians and the poster was asking about their contribution to the country and I was giving the example of another Christian denomination in the country that tried to self-govern themselves.

a reply to: artistpoet

Yea, I enjoy reading it myself as well. And yes there is the story of the good Samaritan in the bible, but it would be nice if Christians in the past would emulate that story instead of just tell it to their children. Most of the time, in history, when Christians meet new peoples, they start slaughtering or enslaving them. The remainders, they try to forcibly convert to Christianity. Notice that Ben Franklin mentions that the Natives never tried to convert anyone to what they believed and were willing to consider all stories as true? Or that their gifts to strangers never came with caveats, they'd just be nice no matter what?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Great to learn all these things
Yet sad to the see the Reality I witnessed in Canada of a people so dispirited ... yet there are exceptions also
Those who rise above being victims but what a hard road they travel

a reply to: artistpoet

While this isn't a thread about the colony of America or the revolution yes. Some residents were not interested at all in forming a new nation and were happy to be British subjects under then King George. They were on the side of the British government and supported British troops. ( The Red Coats)

a reply to: masqua

But the French only got involved as a way to snipe Great Britain. A long time adversary to the French. They supported the American's Remember too that France was facing a potential revolution of its own at the time even though Louis the sixteenth agreed to send troops to America when asked the people of France were already griping about his wife's spending.

a reply to: masqua

But, regardless of these kinds of facts, the traditions of the Native American peoples, and their capabilities as fighters, did much to form what could be called the ‘soul’ of America. Just take note that the eagle is shared as a national symbol by both settlers and natives today.

I do love how Native Americans relate to natural world and the animals/birds/insects ... Seeing the quality's in them that they learn of themselves ... Nothing like seeing a majestic Bald Eagle soaring above the forest ... or the cunning and mystery of a Raven but hey I am getting all home sick for the Canada I visited and this is USA thread but those peoples are the same.

I believe they did not see themselves as owners of the land originally but as part of land

a reply to: AutumnWitch657

The pilgrims were Puritans. That was their religion. They came here to escape religious persecution by the Angelican church of England.
They didn't come to start a new nation. They were clearly fine with being British.

Thanks ... Yes I read the Pilgrim Fathers wanted religious separation from the English Church
Sort of Ironic ... The Founding Fathers creating a separation of Religion and State later

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Lol ... I do not want to be as controversial as you ... But Hell Yes why not...
Christianity has been bent way out of shape from it's original intent and teachings

a reply to: AutumnWitch657

I am English by birth, Welsh by descent, Scottish in my heart and Irish in my wit
I am British but also a citizen of the world in my outlook
I admire the integrity and honour of many people of all nations
Maybe we could all get together sometime and forge a great future for all
Also I am a dreamer

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

They were deist. Just about the only Christian was Washington and he would probably today have been an episcopal/anglican pro lgbt.

They didn't want a Christian nation. But that does not mean they wanted a secular one, as we would define it today.

They wanted a Christian-protecting nation. And of course, second class protection for others.

You should not forget that America was founded by businessmen fleeing Europe's authorities. Heretics who wanted the right to practice their faith outside of papal oppression. We have a president, not a prime minister. We had policies, not laws. We had a continental militia, not an army.

Aside this, we also had 300 years of Native American influence that turned us into an incredibly unique culture. We had 13 states, not 13 provinces. United tribes, not nations, or nation.

Why did I go down all this? The structure, nature, policies, elected leaders, and regulations of this corporate-nation were designed not to be a Christian nation, nor a secular state. They were designed to be a place where you could compete. On faith, on business, on politics, on anything.

So we can use contemporary language saying this and that, but this language is not applicable to America 300 years ago.

They wanted a secular state. But their secular was not your secular. Their views were not yours. What you want from a secular state is not what they wanted. If they were alive today, they would not have said they wanted a secular state. They would have said they wanted, frankly, the western liberal equivalent of ISIS.

a reply to: Gorman91

They wanted a secular state. But their secular was not your secular. Their views were not yours. What you want from a secular state is not what they wanted. If they were alive today, they would not have said they wanted a secular state. They would have said they wanted, frankly, the western liberal equivalent of ISIS.

but we have democracy now. we the people have the power, not some sky fairy.

thats how it should be.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Remarks Concerning the Savages of North America

Before I clicked it, I knew it would be Ben Franklin. He was generally awesome.

Here is a good history of the origin of this conspiracy theory:

A Christian Nation? Since When?

The idea of a Christian nation is only 80 or so years old.

originally posted by: Gorman91
a reply to: SkepticOverlord
They were deist. Just about the only Christian was Washington and he would probably today have been an episcopal/anglican pro lgbt.

Based on an exceptional historical record, I disagree. But it's not a point worth wrangling over.

They wanted a Christian-protecting nation. And of course, second class protection for others.

Did you watch the video? It seems not. It's exceptionally clear, from the historical record, that the founding fathers wanted a belief-protecting nation. It's in the video.

I think the founders had enough foresight to and historical knowledge to understand that beliefs change over time. If the nation was to stand the test of time, they had to leave specifics out of the equation.

originally posted by: artistpoet
a reply to: AutumnWitch657

The pilgrims were Puritans. That was their religion. They came here to escape religious persecution by the Angelican church of England.
They didn't come to start a new nation. They were clearly fine with being British.

Thanks ... Yes I read the Pilgrim Fathers wanted religious separation from the English Church
Sort of Ironic ... The Founding Fathers creating a separation of Religion and State later

it would be more ironic if americans started immigrating back to england in the interests of religious security.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
All true. However, we do owe the Iroquois Confederacy a big nod in the framing of our constitution.

"Whereas, the Confederation of the original thirteen colonies into one Republic was explicitly modeled upon the Iroquois Confederacy as were many of the democratic principles which were incorporated into the Constitution itself;"

Concurrent Resolution 331

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Gorman91

They wanted a secular state. But their secular was not your secular. Their views were not yours. What you want from a secular state is not what they wanted. If they were alive today, they would not have said they wanted a secular state. They would have said they wanted, frankly, the western liberal equivalent of ISIS.

but we have democracy now. we the people have the power, not some sky fairy.

thats how it should be.

Actually, we have a Republic with a modicum of integrated democratic principles.

a reply to: TzarChasm

The Official Religion of England is Anglican headed by the Queen though all faiths and religions are tolerated
Heretics are no longer burnt at the stake

Your Nation the USA also tolerates all religions by law
Have you got a persecution complex ... I think you would find the same public backlash against fundamentalism here
Most understand that one is free to practice their faith ... but most do not like others pushing their faith on them ... it can get nasty.
English people I think view the shenanigans of fundamentalists in the USA as undesirable and rather crazy

Most though could not give two hoots what religion you are or are not so long as you not do not encroach on them

I have many Christian friends ... they are cool ...

Unfortunately it is bit of a bugger getting through customs these days
If you were to say you were escaping Religious Persecution from the USA ... They would laugh at you and send you packing home

Edit to add ... I apologise for asking/inferring you have a persecution complex ... I think I read you wrong

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Locke did a lot more than just influence T.J. The founders were very well versed in the enlightenment era philosophers especially locke and the bill of rights does very much resemble passages in Two Treaties.