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originally posted by: neoholographic
THERE'S ZERO EVIDENCE THAT THE MATERIAL BRAIN CAN DO THESE THINGS.
originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: Bedlam
WHAT???
Have you even read anything I said?
Where did I say anything about magical?? These are words people use when they can't debate the issue.
originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: Bedlam
WOW, you must be desperate!!
When pseudoskeptics crack open the phrase QUANTUM WOO you know they have zero argument. You have used the terms magical and quantum woo because you can't debate the issue.
Of course the material brain can't initiate thought and there's not a SHRED OF EVIDENCE that supports this. It's not my job to show you proof of something that doesn't exist. There first have to be EVIDENCE that this is the case and you or anyone else haven't provided one shred of evidence that the material brain can accomplish these things.
I DON'T HAVE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT IT CAN'T BECAUSE THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THAT IT CAN!!
That's why I keep asking for evidence and I keep getting nonsense and hyperbole.
When science can't explain something, you just can't say it must be the material brain because this is what you want to believe. There's growing evidence that I listed earlier that shows consciousness doesn't originate in the material brain.
Stop spewing these nonsensical diatribes without a shred of evidence.
originally posted by: FlySolo
a reply to: neoholographic
I think this picture best describes the paradox.
I have thought about these questions as well. How does a name surface or a word you forgot come to mind? It's on the tip of your tongue but you can't say it. The harder you try, the more elusive that word is it seems. Forget about it for awhile then like bubbles in a champagne glass, it's just there, popped into existence in the forefront of your memory without even trying. What about the words I'm typing now as they flow seamlessly from my fingers without me sitting here thinking about what I'm going to type? We can talk on and on for hours unscripted. Hundreds if not thousands of words done instantly all coming from one spark of "something?" happening at .0000009 of a second.
So your question is a good one. If we're not physically doing it, who/what is? Where is that coming from? Does this mean free will is an illusion? Are we being controlled non-locally under the impression we are doing it ourselves?
Why do you think any "quantum component" of a nervous system exists at all?
originally posted by: FlySolo
a reply to: Bedlam
Why do you think any "quantum component" of a nervous system exists at all?
Just skimming the thread now and like another poster mentioned, there's high functioning microtubules in brains cells which have been discovered to vibrate at very high frequencies.
www.sciencedaily.com...
Why do you think any "quantum component" of a nervous system exists at all? What proof do you have for it? Why should I invoke some invisible, uninstrumentable putative dualism construct to explain behavior? And, again, how do you explain the functioning of this invisible component? In what way does IT initiate thought?
In his paper, "Non-computability of Consciousness," Daegene Song proves human consciousness cannot be computed. Song arrived at his conclusion through quantum computer research in which he showed there is a unique mechanism in human consciousness that no computing device can simulate.
Song's work also shows consciousness is not like other physical systems like neurons, atoms or galaxies. "If consciousness cannot be represented in the same way all other physical systems are represented, it may not be something that arises out of a physical system like the brain," said Song. "The brain and consciousness are linked together, but the brain does not produce consciousness. Consciousness is something altogether different and separate. The math doesn't lie."
Quantum coherence in brain protein resembles plant photosynthesis
Back in the brain, microtubules are components of the cytoskeleton inside neurons, cylindrical lattice polymers of the protein ‘tubulin’. Microtubules are theorized to encode memory, regulate synapses and act as quantum computers generating consciousness. The latter claim has been criticized, but now it appears quantum mechanisms eerily similar to those in photosynthesis may operate in tubulins within microtubules.
In an article published September 17 by the Journal of the Royal Society – Interface a team of scientists from Nova Southeastern University and the University of Arizona in the US, and the University of Alberta in Canada used computer simulation and theoretical quantum biophysics to analyze quantum coherence among tryptophan pi resonance rings in tubulin, the component protein in microtubules.
1. Craddock JA, Hameroff SR, Ayoub AT, Klobukowski M, Tuszynski JA.
Anesthetics act in quantum channels in brain microtubules to prevent consciousness.
Current Topics in Medicinal Chemistry, 2015/3/1, Vol 15:6, 523-533.
2. Craddock J.A. Travis, Friesen D, Mane J, Hameroff SR, Tuszynski JA.
The Feasibility of Coherent Energy Transfer in Microtubules.
Journal of the Royal Society Interface, 17 September 2014
Craddock et al 2014 JRSInterface.pdf
3. Hameroff SR, Craddock TJ, Tuszynski JA.
Quantum effects in the understanding of consciousness
J Integr Neurosci. 2014 Apr 13(2):229-52
4. Hameroff S. and Penrose R.
Consciousness in the universe: A review of the 'Orch OR' theory.
Phys Life Rev, 2014; Mar 11(1):39-78.
5. Hameroff S.
Quantum walks in brain microtubules-a biomolecular basis for quantum cognition?
Top Cogn Sci, 2014; Jan; 6(1):91-7.
The following is a selected list of downloadable peer-reviewed journal articles reporting studies of psychic phenomena, mostly published in the 21st century. There are also some important papers of historical interest and other resources. A comprehensive list would run into thousands of articles.
Commonly repeated critiques about psi, such as “these phenomena are impossible,” or “there’s no valid scientific evidence,” or “the results are all due to fraud,” have been soundly rejected for many decades. Such critiques persist due to ignorance of the relevant literature and to entrenched, incorrect beliefs. Legitimate debates today no longer focus on existential questions but on development of adequate theoretical explanations, advancements in methodology, the “source” of psi, and issues about effect size heterogeneity and robustness of replication.
But that proves that microtubules vibrate at high frequencies. Maybe. What it doesn't prove, is that there's a quantum being/soul/spirit/ghost on the other end somehow driving the body like a car.
originally posted by: FlySolo
a reply to: Bedlam
But that proves that microtubules vibrate at high frequencies. Maybe. What it doesn't prove, is that there's a quantum being/soul/spirit/ghost on the other end somehow driving the body like a car.
It proves that "For some unknown and unexplained reason" we have microtubules that vibrate in megahertz not hertz. Quantum vibrations, ultra fast. Not just high frequencies. Why?
Many scientists believe if we build a computer fast enough, smart enough, eventually it will develop consciousness. That's the working theory, flawed in my opinion. What this discovery suggests is consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules, protein polymers inside brain neurons, which both govern neuronal and synaptic function, and connect brain processes to self-organizing processes in the fine scale, 'proto-conscious' quantum structure of reality.
Whilst this doesn't prove a soul or God puppeteer, it certainly leads to a trail of breadcrumbs in that direction. Can you take a metal bucket of circuits, put them together and create consciousness? That's what our meat brain is.
How can the materiel brain initiate the recall of a specific memory? How does the material brain know which memory you wish to recall?