The Killing of Osama bin Laden

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Ritter327

Again take the 9/11 issue to that forum / threads please.

It is just a simple comparison, if one thing that is an obvious lie and a grand one, then everything that is "offered" to the American people is probably an even bigger pile of horse nuggets.

The way Obama stood right up ready to accept glory and accolades for Osama being killed is the reason no one in their right mind should believe a single thing he says now. (I never did before myself).

And then the "buried properly at sea" thing. Insulting the intelligence of everyone on the entire planet is customary for the Obama administration, and how the media and Obamunists everywhere were praising him for Osama's death, then withholding all images and physical evidence just like every other false operation Obama has done, sharing that same pattern of claiming the glory for a job well done, without any proof to back it up.

Everything coming from the media about anything Obama does, is doing, or will do, should be taken about as seriously as a poorly written work of fiction, or a short book of crummy jokes.

I am personally in denial that even a single human being could be so gullible to believe in even one claim coming from Obama, even his latest golf score, or even what he says he fed his dog yesterday should be considered untrustworthy.

Moral of the story is "don't believe it".

a reply to: Kandinsky

Bush Sr. and Dick Cheney are two of the most dangerous and capable men who've ever pulled the strings of power.

It would not surprise me in the least to find that almost every American run operation in the Middle East has come after the nod of Bush Sr. and his Saudi advisors/bag-men.

a reply to: Kandinsky

The problem with "less than ten ATSers willing to read the article" sums up an important problem with people, no matter how sceptical or well intentioned, in general and ATS/conspiracy sites in particular. Knowledge = power, and you dont get knowledge from bite-sized snippets or talking heads.

People need to research the facts more and rely on hunches less. I sincerely believe that the decline in good journalism like this excellent analysis, and higher reliance to singular, shill, unipolar partisan narratives deteriorates overall understanding of events to a level comparable to middle age cathedral pulpit sermons, where captive audiences are exposed to only singular truths and points of viev. Todays often chaotic narratives may only be deciphered by reading as many different narratives and analysises as possible, and then forming an overall collage picture of any given event.

I fear, sadly, that few will follow my advice however.

a reply to: MacChiavell1

If I could give you an applause for that post I would.

nicely stated.

a reply to: MacChiavell1

It's a bloody shame isn't it? That article was an eye-opener for me and well worth the time it took to read. Admittedly, my mind baulked at the length of it before finding it a compelling piece.

Unfortunately, next to nobody on the internet and/or ATS will get past skimming it and most will have an opinion based purely on the thread title.

They're missing out on a lot of well-sourced knowledge in the article.

a reply to: Xcathdra

They just got two

a reply to: Snarl

Yeah, those guys have a true pedigree and genuinely powerful peers.

They are rooted into the fabric of power relations in the US going back for decades.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Your welcome

To be honest, even though I have little faith my little grain of opinionated "wisdom" will change anything, if even a few people resonate with my thinking, and propagate the central truth many wish to forget, that truth is not the dominion of any one person, group, belief or nation, then I will call it a victory.

Im a strange, and conflicting person in many ways, a militant pacifist, a moral criminal, a rational dreamer, a right wing anarchist, a jewish (heritage not personal belief) anti-zionist, so maybe people will take my/our advise (with a healthy grain of salt ofc hehe) and be more accommodating to our Human peers and brothers/sisters and their shortcomings, so that they inturn will accept ours.

Mahalo.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Hehe, I stumbled on this article and was hooked as soon as i saw the opening lines.
Mark Twain once famously said that "the difference between a word and the Right word, is the difference between the lightning bug, and lightning." I admit he didnt mean it in this context, but his own writing, but we can postulate that the truth of that projects well when looking at so much writing done these days. For example, I read daily at the bare minimum:
Antiwar.com
stratfor.com
zerohedge.com
thesaker.is
ats (duh...)
Whatdoesitmean.com
Mcclatchydc.com
reuters.com (for msm narrative)

Now i know this list is probably considred quite large for most people and some sites alien or irrelevant, with their busy lives and all, but i truly believe that due to the fragmentation of information these days, i cannot get enough both raw and digested data to satisfy my information addiction. Now armed with this knowledge, i feel increasing empowered...and increasingly alienated/disenfranchised. This strange duality I sincerely believe is not a product of the "interesting times we live in" (as the ancient chinese curse goes) but because there is nothing I can do or say to genuinly change anything but my own life and views. I have tried to resist the times we live in by sharing knowledge, but few are willing to break away from their entrenched positions and opinions, because that would mean taking a deep and very painful look around. Nowadays im resigned to stop preaching to even the choir (likeminded, intelligent, independent thinking individuals like yourself) because...that would mean embracing the central tenets im fighting myself, because if I TELL you to think more broadly, and some people - by some miracle of the Great Enabler/Flying Spaghetti Monster/JHWE - act upon it, then the leading authority of truth would in essense (deity/deities forbid) be me!

Its a real mess (even in my head), I admit, but one I think we must learn to live with. Respect is a two way street, sometimes admittedly converted into a one way donkey trail, but its what we have to accept and work on ourselves, and be content with the hope that others will see the light of the truth before its too late.

This makes far more sense than the various stories we have had these past 4 years.A former ISI agent walks in looking for the reward and relocation for his family to the US gives up the location of the ISI's "honored guest." The Pakistanis were sitting on him looking to make a deal of their own with the government.CIA and JSOC get together with the ISI convinces the president and we supposedly know the rest.


PS:I still find the timing odd right when Obama's poll numbers were sinking.

a reply to: Kapusta

People from the same unit died in the crash. Not the exact same SEALs who made the hit on UBL. That's been said repeatedly.

knowing how the Pakistani government reacts to things that happen in their country, and when they feel that their sovereignty has been violated. i think that if they were holding him and the U.S. went in and killed him, they would have cried from the highest mountains. sure western media wouldn't have reported their crying, but there are plenty of other media outlets that would have been more than happy to spread bad news about the great Satan violating their sovereignty.

now if a rouge element had been holding him, i would think that AQ would have attacked to rescue him.

i don't think it was him, i think he was already dead, or was still in the wind and has died since.

a reply to: Xcathdra

This is a interesting read and is more believable than most alternative takes on Bin Laden's death.

Essentially it argues that ISI know about the raid and Bin Laden's presence in Abbottabad before the attack, it then goes on to discuss the use of OBLs DNA, discusses his burial at sea and makes a argument that all the lies really started after OBL was shot to be used to gain political favour for Obama.

There is a lot in this article, its over 10,000 words long, so I am not going to go at it point by point.

There is one major are I disagree with the author, Seymour Hersh, who I do respect as a journalist, and that is his claim that ISI knew of the impending raid. Now I do believe that senior members of the ISI know OBL was taking sanctuary in Pakistan but I cannot believe that they of the impending American DEVGRU Raid. The reason i doubt this is because American intelligence has long known that there were many in ISI sympathetic to Al-Qa'ida and strongly suspected that the Americans failed to get Bin Laden in 1998 due to a ISI leak when they were given information before the attack. Operation Neptune Spear was a true black op, it was also interestingly not the first that the Americans had run in Pakistani territory according to some sources. So that is why I struggle to believe ISI know of the raid in advanced. I could be wrong and Hersh could be right.

Mr Hersh also claims they did not gather this "treasure trove" of intelligence and were just sitting about with a few black bin bags waiting for the chopper. I find this also dubious, JSOC i recall reading actually issue special bags to there guys to put the intelligence in not bin liners. Also the term "treasure trove" is probably quite subjective however I do believe they did find a lot of useful intelligence in that building. For example I know of at least one court case in the UK just now where that intelligence is being used in the prosecution of a alleged terrorist.

All the same, quite a interesting article.

EDIT:

Just for those who are interested I have also found this on CNN this morning that gives a brief of the article and responds to some of the accusations, its by Peter Bergan, on of the leading experts on this subject.

CNN

Just a little snippet of it for your interest:

The only source Hersh refers to by name in his 10,000-word piece is Assad Durrani, who was the head of ISI during the early 1990s, around two decades before the bin Laden raid occurred. Hersh portrays Durrani as generally supportive of Hersh's various conclusions.

When I emailed Durrani after the Hersh piece appeared, Durrani said there was "no evidence of any kind" that the ISI knew that bin Laden was hiding in Abbottabad but he still could "make an assessment that this could be plausible." This is hardly a strong endorsement of one of the principal claims of Hersh's piece.

Durrani added that he believed that the bin Laden "operation could not have been carried out without our cooperation."

Read this article as well, it balances up the claims made by Hersh.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
To hear the ISI say that there is 'no evidence of any kind' doesn't surprise me.
To find out that they were unaware of OBL living at that location for an extended period of time, right under their noses.... well now, that I would find very surprising.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Osama has been dead since around 2001.
I thought everyone knew that already.

Just like in 1984, Goldberg was created to be the world's terrorist. So was bin laden.

How stupid do they think we are with these articles? Everytime an article like this is written it further props up the official lie for future generations to absorb.

Just like "Columbus discovered America".
Or Jfk was killed by a loan gunman.

All lies, like most of "history", it's propaganda designed to make future generations believe that their country and country's history is clean and good.

And yes xcathdra, building 7 and the lie of 9/11 is directly pertinent to this OBL discussion.

a reply to: Xcathdra

In a word ....


No.

a reply to: Ritter327

Go away. This isn't a 911thread. We have enough of that bull# for its own little forum. Go there with your fiction. Thank you very much.

originally posted by: Kapusta
a reply to: Xcathdra


As a Muslim when i heard the words " Gave him a proper Islamic burial at sea " I knew from that point it was all BS .

Their is no "proper Islamic burial at sea " .

When Muslims are buried they are put in the ground facing mecca ,how is that possible at sea ?

Yes but you see in order for Obama to get credit for killing a guy who, not only had nothing to do with 9/11, but had been dead for years already, the minor matter of inventing new Muslim aquatic burial rituals had to be taken care of.

I haven't yet formed an opinion on this story, but I found this earlier today, as I was looking into it.

The Many Problems with Seymour Hersh's Osama bin Laden Conspiracy Theory

Hersh produces no supporting documents or proof, nor is the authority of either source established. We are given no reason to believe that either Durrani or the "knowledgeable official" would have even second- or thirdhand knowledge of what occurred, yet their word is treated as gospel. His other two sources are anonymous "consultants" who are vaguely described as insiders.

In other words, for Hersh to be correct that the intelligence material was faked, and thus that bin Laden was a secret prisoner of Pakistani intelligence, and thus that the raid to kill him was a staged American-Pakistani ruse, then al-Qaeda would have had to be in on it — even though al-Qaeda was also the supposed victim of Pakistan's plot.

There's an awful lot of contradictions and holes in Hersh's story...

originally posted by: Kapusta
a reply to: Xcathdra


As a Muslim when i heard the words " Gave him a proper Islamic burial at sea " I knew from that point it was all BS .

Their is no "proper Islamic burial at sea " .

When Muslims are buried they are put in the ground facing mecca ,how is that possible at sea ?

It was the funniest thing I've heard about the "officials" story behind Osama's death.

a reply to: Kapusta

The SEAL team involved didn't die in a helicopter crash. It was a group from the same detachment, not from this team. This team was made up of members from several different teams, put together specifically for this mission. They were all from 6 though, as were the ones that were on the helicopter that was shot down later.