John Lennon's "Imagine" - Eden/Atlantis/Paradise/On Earth as in Heaven

a reply to: peter vlar

When you look at the song Come Together it shows his disdain for Christianity.

Think about the lyrics

Here come old flat top
He come groovin' up slowly
He got joo joo eyeballs (Jewish)
He one holy roller (fanatically religious)
He got hair down to his knee (the long haired image)
Got to be a joker He just do what he please

He wear no shoeshine (wore sandals)
He got toe jam football
He got monkey finger (?????)
He shoot Coca Cola (Israel had boycotted Pepsi)
He say I know you, you know me
One thing I can tell you is You got to be free
Come together, right now Over me
He bad production
He got walrus gumboot
He got Ono sideboard (Yoko was married to Anthony Cox, living in a commune of Jesus People, when he met her)
He one spinal cracker (eucharist)
He got feet down below his knees
Hold you in his armchair You can feel his disease (Lennon's own view of religion as a disease)
Come together, right now Over me
He roller coaster (Helter Skelter)
He got early warning (prophetic messages of Apocalypse)
He got muddy water (baptism)
He one Mojo filter (keeps bad luck away)
He say one and one and one is three (Trinity)
Got to be good looking Cause he's so hard to see (Lennon's own idea that Christianity is based on attraction to Jesus, because Lennon don't see)
Come together right now Over me

a reply to: WarminIndy

Lennon wasn't an advocate for communism, so much as he was an advocate for peace. The song advances an empathic understanding for what was then considered the mortal enemy of the UK and US.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: peter vlar

When you look at the song Come Together it shows his disdain for Christianity.

Think about the lyrics

Here come old flat top
He come groovin' up slowly
He got joo joo eyeballs (Jewish)
He one holy roller (fanatically religious)
He got hair down to his knee (the long haired image)
Got to be a joker He just do what he please

He wear no shoeshine (wore sandals)
He got toe jam football
He got monkey finger (?????)
He shoot Coca Cola (Israel had boycotted Pepsi)
He say I know you, you know me
One thing I can tell you is You got to be free
Come together, right now Over me
He bad production
He got walrus gumboot
He got Ono sideboard (Yoko was married to Anthony Cox, living in a commune of Jesus People, when he met her)
He one spinal cracker (eucharist)
He got feet down below his knees
Hold you in his armchair You can feel his disease (Lennon's own view of religion as a disease)
Come together, right now Over me
He roller coaster (Helter Skelter)
He got early warning (prophetic messages of Apocalypse)
He got muddy water (baptism)
He one Mojo filter (keeps bad luck away)
He say one and one and one is three (Trinity)
Got to be good looking Cause he's so hard to see (Lennon's own idea that Christianity is based on attraction to Jesus, because Lennon don't see)
Come together right now Over me

An interesting interpretation but I think its got about as much basis as one I read recently that says the song is about how the original Paul was dead and how the rest of the Beatles had to carry on with an imposter. It was originally written as a campaign song for Timothy Leary when he was running against Reagan for Governor of California and according to Lennon, the lyrics don't mean anything, its nonsense strung together. He might not have been an ardent supporter of Christianity but he also wasn't against it, especially not with the fervor you are ascribing to him. He just wasn't into any one particular religion forcing its will upon the populace. From an interview he did w/ Playboy where they asked specifically about Come Together, which as a side note is one of my favorite Beatles songs and the bass line is really sweet and fun to play. anyway...

The thing was created in the studio. It's gobbledygook; "Come Together" was an expression that Leary had come up with for his attempt at being president or whatever he wanted to be, and he asked me to write a campaign song. I tried and tried, but I couldn't come up with one. But I came up with this, "Come Together," which would've been no good to him—you couldn't have a campaign song like that, right?

a reply to: WarminIndy

You are reading way too much into the lyrics...

That being said, I wouldn't doubt he had disdain for Christianity. People like John Lennon often come to understand how religion can be a poison of the mind. So whatever disdain he may have had wasn't geared at Christianity specifically. And I bet he felt the same way about every other organized system of belief that claimed to have the universal truths in their doctrines.



Imo the guy just wished people could stop treating other people like crap. Whatever reasons they used to justify it. Religion, politics, prejudices.. Like you pointed out before, he had his own problems and baggage. Like you said, maybe he was crying out. Perhaps all he wanted was for people to treat other people, like people. And imo, he recognized how things like religion and politics did more to divide people, than unite them.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: peter vlar

If he truly believed it then he probably should have been living it himself.

Sometimes actions speak louder than words.

Sorry to get nit picky here but..

I could (and have) say the same thing about Christians. Yet the defensive response when unbelievers make such a charge is that every man is a sinner. And Christians are no different. How can atheists or other non believers judge them and ask why they don't always practice what they preach.

Perhaps my response will be, "They aren't real Christians. If they truly were they would have been living it themselves. Actions speak louder than words"

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Then why did he move to Manhattan, Long Island, New York, the capital of consumerism and greed?

Let me dig up all the negative aspects of your city and State, and then ask you why you live there. Then let me make assumptions about you based on the negative things I find...

a reply to: arpgme

Don't let it get to you. There are some people who will demonize anything that doesn't tow a line in concert with their strict systems of belief. They will grab on to any little thing and interpret it to mean something it doesn't.

John lenons relationship with Alister crowley is public record.

Imagine there is no heaven (imagine there is no God) no God no justice, free for all
Imagine no hell, again Lenon is calling people to disbelieve in accountability

Lenon is calling for people to live as they want, the golden rule of satanism, do as thou wilt

Do What Thou Wilt @ Introduction to Crowley
tim.maroney.org/CrowleyIntro/Do_What_Thou_Wilt.html
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is a moral utterance found in the Thelemic foundation scripture, which is called the Book of the Law. "Do what ...

sounds like a satanist,

originally posted by: borntowatch
John lenons relationship with Alister crowley is public record.

Is it now? Do you have a citation for that?

Imagine there is no heaven (imagine there is no God) no God no justice, free for all
Imagine no hell, again Lenon is calling people to disbelieve in accountability

No accountability huh? How exactly do you come to that conclusion? I would dare say that Lennon was more into self responsibility than p[lacing his faith in a church but that in no way is synonymous with disbelief in accountability. God or Gods are not a requirement for justice or accountability. Even atheists and other atheistic philosophies like LaVeyan Satanism believe in accountability and punishment for misdeeds.

In his own words -

The concept of positive prayer ... If you can imagine a world at peace, with no denominations of religion—not without religion but without this my God-is-bigger-than-your-God thing—then it can be true ... the World Church called me once and asked, "Can we use the lyrics to 'Imagine' and just change it to 'Imagine one religion'?" That showed [me] they didn't understand it at all. It would defeat the whole purpose of the song, the whole idea.

Lenon is calling for people to live as they want, the golden rule of satanism, do as thou wilt

Lennon was asking us to imagine a place where things that divide people (religion, possessions, etc.) did not exist. He felt that would be a much better place. That isn't remotely the direction you want this song to be moving in.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is a moral utterance found in the Thelemic foundation scripture, which is called the Book of the Law. "Do what ...

sounds like a satanist,

No it doesn't. It sounds like a Thelemite. Crowley was not a Satanist, never identified as a Satanist, never considered himself a Satanist. Furthermore, Crowley didn't believe in Jesus or Christianity. As Satan is an adversarial archetype in Judeo-Christian theology one can not be a Satanist if they do not believe in the worldview or theology from which Satan belongs to.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: WarminIndy

You are reading way too much into the lyrics...

That being said, I wouldn't doubt he had disdain for Christianity. People like John Lennon often come to understand how religion can be a poison of the mind. So whatever disdain he may have had wasn't geared at Christianity specifically. And I bet he felt the same way about every other organized system of belief that claimed to have the universal truths in their doctrines.

Imo the guy just wished people could stop treating other people like crap. Whatever reasons they used to justify it. Religion, politics, prejudices.. Like you pointed out before, he had his own problems and baggage. Like you said, maybe he was crying out. Perhaps all he wanted was for people to treat other people, like people. And imo, he recognized how things like religion and politics did more to divide people, than unite them.

Like I said in an earlier post, he left it up to the individual to interpret the lyrics.

The song in the OP has already been described three different ways.

a reply to: WarminIndy

So Lennon's own words on the matter are irrelevant then? I think it's a hit of a stretch to insist he left the lyrical interpretation up to the listener when he explains the subject matter himself leaving no doubt his intention.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: arpgme

Don't let it get to you. There are some people who will demonize anything that doesn't tow a line in concert with their strict systems of belief. They will grab on to any little thing and interpret it to mean something it doesn't.

Which is what the OP did, he grabbed meaning out of it. Kind of reminds me of this....

Then you listen to the music and you like to sing along You want to get the meaning out of each and every song Then you find yourself a message and some words to call your own And take 'em home Read more: Bread - Guitar Man Lyrics | MetroLyrics

The man had different interests throughout his career and now some people are saying he was a closet Christan after the song Imagine. I remember people saying Ozzy Osbourne was also a closet Christian.

At the time he wrote Come Together, his interests were in the teachings of the Yogi Maharishi Mahesh. But one thing is sure, Charles Manson didn't find anything Christian about the Beatles and neither did the millions who were influenced into drugs and transcendental meditation by the Beatles.

You could even say he was singing about Maharishi Mahesh, but to call him a spinal cracker, that would make no sense.

originally posted by: peter vlar


Is it now? Do you have a citation for that?

no i dont, my mistake

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: WarminIndy

So Lennon's own words on the matter are irrelevant then? I think it's a hit of a stretch to insist he left the lyrical interpretation up to the listener when he explains the subject matter himself leaving no doubt his intention.

Lennon said a lot of things, some while he was on drugs.

When people are on a psychedelic substance they can say anything.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I agree, and you have the right to say that about Christians.

If you posted 20 preachers that were failures, I would agree that they were and not give them a pass just because they were Christian.

a reply to: WarminIndy

now you're just making assumptions to make rationalizing things easier for you. It's not like he made these statements while at a party to a private group of friends, he made them in the middle of the day during an interview with a magazine from my citation. You simply aren't going to be able to function properly enough to do interviews when indulging in hallucinogenics. And he gave the same answers on more than one occasion as well so even if he were off his rocker on drugs, its irrelevant as the answer was consistently the same and never changed.

a reply to: WarminIndy

My apologies if I have misunderstood your point. To me, it has seemed as if you were finding your own personal meanings to the lyrics and then applying them to Lennon's as if they were his.

a reply to: borntowatch

He didn't promote "do what thou wilt" in that song.

Lyrics:

"No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man "

Not being greedy and actually seeing unity/brotherhood with others to care for them (who starve for example) is not doing whatever one wills, but overcoming the greedy side of human nature to help others.

No where in the song did he say "don't care about others just do what you will". It was the opposite, brotherhood/unity - to love thy neighbour as thyself.

John Lennon was a songwriter.He wrote songs.There is ZERO good reason to extrapolate what a person thinks a lyric means and then say THAT is what the songwriter( Lennon)meant.It is intellectual dishonesty.

John was expressing what he knew in the form of a song..that’s it.There are no secret hidden messages or agenda’s and the lyric has no metaphors.It is heavily influenced and basically a variation of Yoko’s poem “Cloud Piece” from her book Grapefruit written in 1964.Lennon even lamented he didn't give her co write credit. Anybody wanting to read into it some hidden meaning or agenda is fantasizing about something that isn’t there.

I do think this song has had a profound effect on the world to date.It is not religious or even worse “spiritual”.It is humanism because that is what it was written as and John said as much.It is an accurate portrayal of mans inner desire at it’s core.It doesn’t preach a doctrine of any kind.It only states what is sensible.That is as deep as John went with a denouncement of “religion” being false in this song.His overall concept is about humanities condition and it’s foibles and the simple alternative…imagine…..it’s very easy..a child could do it(and does).

John was not a fool.He was young and idealistic and knew what he said carried a LOT of weight to many people and he had the stage to present it.This was him being a responsible song writer.When it is divisive it is because of those that hear it as divisive are divisive.As another songwriter (Paul Simon)wrote.. all lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”…imagine that.

originally posted by: Rex282

I do think this song has had a profound effect on the world to date.

WHY did it have a profound effect?

It is not religious or even worse “spiritual”

Says whom? The ashram he was in certainly was religious. The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was certainly religious.

It is humanism because that is what it was written as and John said as much.

When? You mean at the ashram? You mean while practicing Transcendental Meditation?

It is an accurate portrayal of mans inner desire at it’s core.

You said it had zero meaning.

Now you are going to sit here and tell us, tell me, a writer, that what we write comes from nowhere and that we don't insert our worldviews into what we write?

It doesn’t preach a doctrine of any kind.

Yes, it does. THAT was his worldview.

It only states what is sensible.

To whom?

That is as deep as John went with a denouncement of “religion” being false in this song.

While practicing Transcendtal Meditation?

His overall concept is about humanities condition and it’s foibles and the simple alternative…imagine…..it’s very easy..a child could do it(and does)

Either he was just a strung out rock musician who had no meaning into his lyrics, just rambling on about nothing, or he was inserting his own worldview into his lyrics.

What is a worldview?

A worldview is a theory of the world, used for living in the world. A world view is a mental model of reality — a framework of ideas & attitudes about the world, ourselves, and life, a comprehensive system of beliefs — with answers for a wide range of questions:

Please, you know very well that every writer, musician, creator of some artistic model inserts their worldviews into what they make.

BTW, the home he lived in when he was in Manhattan, was the SAME HOUSE as Roman Polanski filmed Rosemary's Baby. Here is his ENTIRE quote about Christianity

Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn’t argue with that; I’m right and I will be proved right. We’re more popular than Jesus now; I don’t know which will go first – rock ‘n’ roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It’s them twisting it that ruins it for me.2

So he's an expert about humanities and inserted zero meaning into his music?

John Lennon quotes
And his quote about the hippies

The people who are in control and in power, and the class system and the whole bull# bourgeois scene is exactly the same except that there are a lot of middle-class kids with long hair walking around in trendy clothes… The same bastards are in control, the same people are running everything.7

Excuse me, but HE was a long haired wealthy hippie who wore trendy clothing. THEN, like a politician, offers an apology

"I suppose if I had said television was more popular than Jesus, I would have gotten away with it. I'm sorry I opened my mouth. I'm not anti-God, anti-Christ, or anti-religion. I wasn't knocking it or putting it down. I was just saying it as a fact and it's true more for England than here. I'm not saying that we're better or greater, or comparing us with Jesus Christ as a person or God as a thing or whatever it is. I just said what I said and it was wrong. Or it was taken wrong. And now it's all this."

THEN he says THIS

"People always got the image I was an anti-Christ or antireligion. I'm not. I'm a most religious fellow. I was brought up a Christian and I only now understand some of the things that Christ was saying in those parables. Because people got hooked on the teacher and missed the message. All this bit about electing a President. We pick our own daddy out of a dog pound of daddies."

Tell us then, did he not write his own worldviews into his lyrics to Imagine? Did he not write it from his position of not understanding the parables?

He said "I only now understand". All that before, that was just nonsensical ramblings? After he led an entire generation, he then offers the apology for doing so, because NOW he understands the parables.

Here is a video of Grace Slick on the Religion Matters show


If you think that there was zero meaning in songs, Grace Slick says that lyrics most definitely have meaning.