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Should the next possible Scotish referendum involve the whole of the UK and not just Scotland?

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posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:13 PM
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originally posted by: intrepid
a reply to: nonspecific

Spare me. You are talking about throwing Scotland out....if you could. I read the OP.



Well I reread my op and I still do not understand you anger towards me.

It was a question but hey if you want to put me in a little box so you can feel superior then fine. I expected better if I am honest.

Show me where and when this is as you claim an English issue and that I want to throw Scotland out of the UK.

I await your response.




posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:16 PM
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I think it should, apart from the legal rights of each nation to self governance and independence, the impact of Scotland leaving on the UK would be an immense upheaval and cost, on many levels, defense, taxation, the NHS, the economy etc.

Since accepting Scotland's pleas to join the Union, there has been a lot of investment and mutual sharing of the aforementioned areas, if they chose leaving , who would be incurring the costs?

No doubt SNP want the UK taxpayer funding their jollies as usual, hence a vote from the people of England, Wales and N.I. would establish national sentiment and conditions of leaving. If the rest of the UK didn't vote for it, it could be a right to protest taxes being spent on it and insist on this being taken into account as part of a leaving package.

Conditions of leaving and associated implications should be made clear to all the UK prior to any future referendum, for example:

Scotland wouldn't be part of the EU and would need to reapply
How would this affect UK status financially and in terms of security
Scotland would need to form new trade alliances
Many banks would leave Scotland
Terms of future alliances of Scotland affecting the UK such as defence, trade, border security etc
The military and defence sectors
Public sector workers and institutions



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:25 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Why do I not have a right to decide whether or not a foreign country, in this case Scotland is a part of a union with my country? Why do they have a right to have a vote and yet I dont. Are you saying that because they're Scottish or that I'm British I dont have a right to decide.

So what you're saying is that I shouldn't get the choice. That my voice isn't worth knowing or any British persons voice isn't worth it during any vote on whether or not the Scots stay in a union with the British? I DO have a right to decide, and I should get a vote because it will effect MY country for generations to come. This whole idea that Scotland has more rights than England or that a Scottish person has more rights than an Englishman is ridiculous.

If they do it again I am demanding that it is a UK wide vote not just a vote in Scotland. We deserve to have our say whether you like it or not. When a vote effects my country whether it'll be the EU or Scotland being part of the United Kingdom, then everyone should get a vote it's called democracy.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:28 PM
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originally posted by: theabsolutetruth

Conditions of leaving and associated implications should be made clear to all the UK prior to any future referendum, for example:

Scotland wouldn't be part of the EU and would need to reapply
How would this affect UK status financially and in terms of security
Scotland would need to form new trade alliances
Many banks would leave Scotland
Terms of future alliances of Scotland affecting the UK such as defence, trade, border security etc
The military and defence sectors
Public sector workers and institutions


One reason I say this about the SNP...be careful about what you asked for.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:29 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Then surely Scotland getting a vote on Englands future is against international law? I dont understand your point. You seem, at least to me and maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems like you're giving Scotland all these rights and laws on their side giving them everything they want when it comes to the vote and yet the rest of the UK has no rights, no laws on their side we just have to sit by and let Scotland decide our future and our outcome.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:29 PM
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originally posted by: smurfy

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth

Conditions of leaving and associated implications should be made clear to all the UK prior to any future referendum, for example:

Scotland wouldn't be part of the EU and would need to reapply
How would this affect UK status financially and in terms of security
Scotland would need to form new trade alliances
Many banks would leave Scotland
Terms of future alliances of Scotland affecting the UK such as defence, trade, border security etc
The military and defence sectors
Public sector workers and institutions


One reason I say this about the SNP...be careful about what you asked for.


So do you think any future referendum should involve the whole of the UK and not just the Scotish vote?



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: Dwoodward85

the UK is a sovereign state

Scotland and England are nations.

The UK is really a "State of Nations"

Now, under international law, nations have the right to self-determination, this means it is the legal right under international law for the nation of Scotland to make decisions about its fate as a nation and that it can become a independent sovereign state if its people decide that is what they want. It is a nations right to self-determination, it is specific to the nation concerned and no other state or nation actors have any say. Therefore the other nations that make up the UK have no say in the matter.

I am from the state of the UK but the nation of Scotland. I think this often causes some confusion for people not fully understanding the difference.

To be clear again, this is a fact, it was the legal background as to why only those resident in Scotland voted in the referendum.
edit on 9-5-2015 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: yorkshirelad

Well Done (Not being patronising at all). You've manage to make my argument sound a lot smarter than I ever could. My point is, that I think Scotland or the five million that voted should have a right to decide the future of a union of what is it sixty million or something like that. How is that right. I personally think that it should be a country wide vote to show that we are all equal in the union and my vote is just as important as a Scot.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:38 PM
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originally posted by: Dwoodward85
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Then surely Scotland getting a vote on Englands future is against international law? I dont understand your point. You seem, at least to me and maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems like you're giving Scotland all these rights and laws on their side giving them everything they want when it comes to the vote and yet the rest of the UK has no rights, no laws on their side we just have to sit by and let Scotland decide our future and our outcome.



That is not what I was saying and i would strongly recommend that you read though my previous posts on this because i am getting fed up of having to repeat myself.

I was asked basically if rUK could vote to have Scotland declared a independent state and was pointing out that this would not be possible because under international law because Scotland is recognised as a nation it would be seen as the state of the UK trying to determine Scotland's destiny as a nation by forcing us out. It would conflict with the principle of nations having the right to self-determination. Also as far as I know there is no legal precedent for this under international law.

You might not like that the other nations that make up the state that is the UK do not get any say on weather or not Scotland becomes a independent state. Thats fine. However it is the internationally recognised legal position that it is the individual nation that makes the decision.

EDIT:

I should add that this is getting into some pretty complex issues regarding international relations and the jurisprudence of international law so most of what I am saying is really quite a simplistic take on it but fundamentally so long as you remember that a nation and a state are two different things and that nations have the right to self-determination that's really enough. When you look at this case by case it becomes much more complicated.
edit on 9-5-2015 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 08:58 PM
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originally posted by: intrepid
a reply to: nonspecific

Spare me. You are talking about throwing Scotland out....if you could. I read the OP.



I am guessing it's a timezone thing.

I am still looking forwards to our continued conversation.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 09:21 PM
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originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: artistpoet
Something is not right for sure ... Is your Mother Canadian or English or dual nationaliity


You know? Damned if I know but I never heard her say she gave up her British citizenship. We're getting a bit off topic though.


All Canadian related posts deleted due to super moderater causing thread drift...


My credentials as to parliamentary procedure and Brit culture was in question.


How often to we get to do that though!

As a non UK member would you prefer us to stay together, split up or not care less?

International opinion is always a good insight with internal subjects.


As an outsider I see all aspects of this situation. We also have experience with that in Canada. Scotland will NOT not leave. It works for everyone. The LOUDEST do make it difficult though.


It was a pretty close call and now the people have voted pretty much outright for a nationalist party.


Does this not show that they are unhappy with the union and how would you explain LOUDEST? I am not sure I understand your meaning with this, do you mean majority?


Another thing that we are familiar with.... regional parties. The Block Quebecois and Party Quebecois were separatist parties that Quebeckers voted for(regional self preservation) but didn't vote for independence. You may be reading too much into that vote.

AND the margin of error in the last referendum was DAMN close(barely 1%):

en.wikipedia.org...

We are beyond that now.


Sorry some confusion there I was reffereing to the Scotish referendum.

I know little of the Canadian situation, are these regions, provinces or seperate nations within a Union.


There are similarities. Quebec has a "unique" status in Canada. Not necessarily a separate nation but a different culture. And they twice decided to remain in Canada.


So would you say that there unique status in Canada is similar to Scotlands relationship with the UK?

They have already had a close no vote so I assume from your comparison they would say no again.

In reference to the OP how would the rest of Canada vote if given a choice similar to the one I proposed for the UK in the OP?

Would Canada as a whole vote for them to stay or would they choose an option that ejected them from the union?


There was a time that Canada would have said, "Screw the ungrateful bastards. Hell, we let them keep their culture after we beat them on the Plains of Abraham." That's British history too btw.


Would the whole nation have voted them out? Depends on the time. At certain times I believe we would have and it would have been the BIGGEST mistake. Decades later we are doing well together.


So based on previous situations of a similar nation in your country your belief is that not only should Scotland leave the UK


I said the opposite. And predicted as much. The loudmouths may spew their crap but the voter seldom likes change.


it should also not be for the whole UK to decide as we may regret our decision and that given time we will learn to overcome our differences and once again be a happy union?


That's right. If Scotland wants to leave, it's their call. I seriously doubt that happening.
It's really not the same as the Quebec situation, I don't know why people keep bringing that up as if it's a legit comparison.

Scotland has over a millenium of it's own serperate history, that's one of the reasons the sentiment is stronger there. Far different from a young new world region. It's a different mindset.

Also, you are wrong, independance is looking more and more likely as the months go by. I can see it happening within the next few years.



posted on May, 10 2015 @ 06:53 AM
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originally posted by: woodwardjnr
I just can't be doing with all the divisive crap from both sides. Nationalism is as stupid as religion


The division is geological. We're on an island made from two different land masses welded together. Allegedly. I never did trust educated types. www.edinburghgeolsoc.org...

The division isn't clear and obvious but it does separate us.

All of this means that the geological join between Laurentian Scotland and Avalonian England is not too easy to define. At one extreme, the influence of the Southern Uplands thrust belt extends into the southern Lake District and inliers of Southern Uplands rock sensu stricto span the border at Carter Bar. The Iapetus Suture itself does not make it to the contemporary level of erosion but remains buried beneath the Carboniferous strata of the Solway – Northumberland basin. In fact, since the suture plane was reactivated as a normal fault during the development of that basin, one important manifestation of the suture might be the Maryport – Stublick Fault system across northern England. At deeper, mid-crustal levels, bits of Avalonia might get as far as Moniaive; still deeper and we have Avalonian mantle under the whole Southern Uplands. This is complicated enough but remember that there were other players in the great Caledonian terrane exchange.


If it was just a political boundary I'd agree it's divisive. This is more than a political boundary. Conditions are bound to be profoundly different on different bedrocks. Different enough to be considered two entirely separate lands. That's my reason for supporting Scottish Independence.


Answering the original question, all of us on the island can point out it is two different lands.



posted on May, 10 2015 @ 07:29 AM
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a reply to: intrepid


Don't worry dude... I see this exactly the same way you do.
You're not imagining it and you're not crazy and yes - it would be easier if people just said what they meant.

Oh well...



posted on May, 10 2015 @ 07:33 AM
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originally posted by: blupblup
a reply to: intrepid


Don't worry dude... I see this exactly the same way you do.
You're not imagining it and you're not crazy and yes - it would be easier if people just said what they meant.

Oh well...



If you think that people should say what you mean then why not start the ball rolling yourself and say that you think I am a bigot and a nationalist and I wish to gang up on little old Scotland and eject them from the UK because they voted for people that they belived benifited them most?



posted on May, 10 2015 @ 08:00 AM
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a reply to: Kester

Geography is part of Scotland and the North of England's need for the South. I was brought up in Scotland, in rural Ayrshire near the coast, it is entirely obvious that the logistics of industry in Scotland is not cost effective, similarly for the North of England, given that road and rail are mainframe infrastructure. Similarly for the geography of Wales. Simply, it costs more to have an industry in Scotland than it does on flat land in the South that is closer to the rest of the trading world, with more communications and transportation networks (which developed due to need) than in rural, undulating land of imposing gradients.

These areas did well when the shipbuilding industries and coal mining were popular, thanks to geography /geology but similarly since the decline of these industries, geography (and political values) has also caused their lack of suitability for situating newer industries. Labour ideas might have been suited to heavy industry but they caused a lot of damage in that they stifled culture and learning. Such labour ideology (which is ingrained in a majority of Scottish people) is counteractive to the world today, the thriving industries thrive because they are intelligent, creative, (google etc), forward thinking, innovative, higher order thinkers.

Such areas are too isolated for the global economy on such a small island as they aren't economically viable. Competition for placing industry will always go to areas that are more cost effective in a capitalist economy.

Unless these areas find a way of retaining their best minds (most I know of vacate Scotland ASAP), willing sources of funding for business initiative, and new industries (or adaptations of old) that are suitable for their geography then they will always be lesser choice.

Recognition of and counteracting geographical limitations is imperative if any of these nations plan on being competitive players in a global capitalist system. Stop blaming and inciting hatred and start looking inwards for your problems and to finding solutions to issues which have influenced humanity and the development of towns and cities since the inception of societies.

Also, for retaining (and attracting) the best minds (and investors), stop dumbing down the people into nationalist, rhetoric soundbites, capable only of repetition (as spouted by SNP), lest the decent minds (and foreign investors) think themselves surrounded by a majority of low brow thugs, void of higher thinking, aesthetic appreciation and cultural integrity (probably a legacy of labour) and make a hasty escape to places of more idealistic values, philosophical contemplations and appreciation for intelligence and aesthetics.

The recent 'win' for SNP is a loss for Scotland as it has just declared itself to the world, it's banks, businesses and investors, that its' ideology is that of Labour socialist 'values' and a Nationalist Socialist hellhole. Such ideology and declarations are not attractive to investors or to the capitalist climate.
edit on 10-5-2015 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)


(post by Soloprotocol removed for a manners violation)

posted on May, 10 2015 @ 08:44 AM
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London Yesterday




posted on May, 10 2015 @ 09:03 AM
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The pride of England, Britain First in Dudley yesterday..



posted on May, 10 2015 @ 11:57 AM
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No. There are arguments for it but a vote to stay in where it was shown that English votes trumped a Scottish desire to leave would be untenable. It would probably lead to violence.

This is an issue for Scotland, it can only be dealt with by scots.

Devolution of power within UK is another matter. If Cameron is smart (and much as I dislike him he played a blinder at this GE) then he will immediately scrap Barnett and devolve all tax and spending powers to the Scottish parliament. The Nats can then proudly show the Scottish electorate how their financial genius will deliver social justice while standing entirely on their own financial feet. This proving the case for independence, or not ,in practice. It will be interesting to observe.



posted on May, 11 2015 @ 05:15 PM
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originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: intrepid
a reply to: nonspecific

Spare me. You are talking about throwing Scotland out....if you could. I read the OP.



I am guessing it's a timezone thing.

I am still looking forwards to our continued conversation.


Still waiting on your answer by the way buddy, would love to have this one out if you are up for it?




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