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Should the next possible Scotish referendum involve the whole of the UK and not just Scotland?

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posted on May, 9 2015 @ 06:39 PM
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a reply to: nonspecific




As I said It was only ever a question, something to spark a little debate as it were.


Its a really interesting question though and one well worth asking!

I only know about it because I asked myself the same question when researching all of this a year ago when the debate over independence really started to heat up.

Like I said, I totally understand why you feel that you would want a say, however there are reasons under international law why you don't have any right to have a say (or rather a vote) on this matter.

If this were the other way around and say Wales or England (don't really know how it would work for England though) were voting for independence then I would probably feel the same way you do.




posted on May, 9 2015 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: yorkshirelad

Do you believe that if you say something it becomes truth? Many do but it doesn't work. 9% No to Yes vote. That's a FACT.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 06:42 PM
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a reply to: nonspecific

Ok, no offense but just an observation. How would it sound if Texas wished to succeed from the union, would it ever happen? Hell #en no! I guess the states aren't privy to such arbitrary defined lines. On the other hand being. 3rd gen Scott/Irish I must say freedom and beer, and fighting nonsenicaly and mumbling until I make no sense. Give em the right or continue to be what ya always been.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 06:45 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: nonspecific




As I said It was only ever a question, something to spark a little debate as it were.


Its a really interesting question though and one well worth asking!

I only know about it because I asked myself the same question when researching all of this a year ago when the debate over independence really started to heat up.

Like I said, I totally understand why you feel that you would want a say, however there are reasons under international law why you don't have any right to have a say (or rather a vote) on this matter.

If this were the other way around and say Wales or England (don't really know how it would work for England though) were voting for independence then I would probably feel the same way you do.


I suppose that we could have a vote for a new union, say one without scotland in it?

Then that would be mean but legal.

It reminds me of the "No homers" club from the Simpsons.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 06:51 PM
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originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: nonspecific




As I said It was only ever a question, something to spark a little debate as it were.


Its a really interesting question though and one well worth asking!

I only know about it because I asked myself the same question when researching all of this a year ago when the debate over independence really started to heat up.

Like I said, I totally understand why you feel that you would want a say, however there are reasons under international law why you don't have any right to have a say (or rather a vote) on this matter.

If this were the other way around and say Wales or England (don't really know how it would work for England though) were voting for independence then I would probably feel the same way you do.


I suppose that we could have a vote for a new union, say one without scotland in it?

Then that would be mean but legal.

It reminds me of the "No homers" club from the Simpsons.


That is SO childish. May I recommend AGAIN to let emotions to cool before saying stupid #?



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 06:51 PM
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a reply to: nonspecific

You mean for the rest of the UK to vote for a referendum on declaring themselves independent?

Wouldn't really work because then under international law because Scotland is recognised as a nation it would be seen as the state of the UK trying to determine Scotland's destiny as a nation by forcing us out, it would conflict with the principle of nations having the right to self-determination. Also as far as I know there is no legal precedent for this under international law.

I suppose it could be possible in some way but its just something that is simply never going to happen.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 06:57 PM
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originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: sparky31
a reply to: nonspecific cause why should anyone else have a vote on if scotland should have independence? no offence but i don,t think they really care what wales or england think



No offence taken.

It was not about what Scotland think about us but more about what we may think about us, I thought I had made that clear.

It was only ever a matter of debate but I feel that giving Scotland the choice to leave without returning the favour as it were seems a little biased do you not think?
giving scotland the choice without returning the favour?oh yeah i,m sorry but scotland has spoken and england is not allowed to break from us?????? lets get this right,unless you stay in london then you have no rights what so ever in any part of the country,you except london rule and thats it.

britain is london to the politicians.nowhere else exists



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:02 PM
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a reply to: intrepid

Gotta love this Canadian^ makes me laugh every time, but sometimes I feel and I do,t just say this to you. But sometimes I feel stereotypes are a prerequisite for posting and also there logical implications, in other words I'd know you were Canadian and him British just by your archetypical aspirations . so basically be original rather than political otherwise we could all just watch t.v. and Kim Kardashian and consume equal substance?



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: nonspecific




As I said It was only ever a question, something to spark a little debate as it were.


Its a really interesting question though and one well worth asking!

I only know about it because I asked myself the same question when researching all of this a year ago when the debate over independence really started to heat up.

Like I said, I totally understand why you feel that you would want a say, however there are reasons under international law why you don't have any right to have a say (or rather a vote) on this matter.

If this were the other way around and say Wales or England (don't really know how it would work for England though) were voting for independence then I would probably feel the same way you do.


I suppose that we could have a vote for a new union, say one without scotland in it?

Then that would be mean but legal.

It reminds me of the "No homers" club from the Simpsons.


That is SO childish. May I recommend AGAIN to let emotions to cool before saying stupid #?


I thought that the stupid bit was obvious with the simpsons reference?

If anyone actually thinks that I am proposing a new union in great britain that sneakily excludes Scotland I appologise.

As I have said I made this thread as a concept, a question as it were to see what would happen.

I do however resent bieng called childish for proposing a perfectly reasonable proposition regarding the future of the UK without any real reasoning for why this would not work.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:04 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: Dwoodward85
a reply to: nonspecific

Yes the whole of the United Kingdom should get the vote this time around. The Scots made their decision to stay, the Nos were out voted and so it's time that the rest of us get to decide if they stay or go. I was so hoping they went, I really did and still do. I think for the SNP to try and remove Trident (I'm gonna not argue the pros and cons of Trident just know I'm for it), is disgusting. The Scottish people weren't told how better off they were and are being part of the UK but next time it should be us who decide and in case you wondered my choice GO! (I'd vote Yes for them to go.)


Pretty good example right hear of why it is up to the people of Scotland to made decisions regarding our self-determination.

Regardless of how much you might want us Scots out of the union, you have absolutely no right what so ever to have any say in the decision unless you are a resident of Scotland.

Not quite. Just to remind folks I live in Scotland, my kids are scottish, I voted for independence, I voted SNP in the general election BUT the claim that only the scots have a right is flawed. For one very simple reason, the reason why the act of union occurred in the first place and the financial compensation that took place. It was the English government (and thus english taxpayers) that paid the debts of the Scottish barons for their failed Darian scheme in central america (395K in 1700 but about 900Billion now !!! accounting for inflation and interest). I would therefore be very careful about any "rights" to independence without first paying back to the English government the money they originally forked out. Scotland is the only nation on earth to have sold it's independence for money. A tough fact but unfortunately true.

Now, kilts aside, saltires wiped from faces and australians sent home : the issue of whether the 5 million people living in Scotland can run this part of the country for itself better than westminster is a different question, to which I would answer a resounding yes. Hence my vote. However, I would also argue that many regions of England could do the same. A de-centralised, federal UK is desperately needed asap.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: sparky31




britain is london to the politicians.nowhere else exists


My MP represents my constituency in the North of England
The only link with London is that is where the Houses of Parliament are where MPs gather from all over Britain
London being the capital city of England ... Edinburgh being where the Scottish parliament gather and Cardiff being where the Welsh parliament gather



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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a reply to: nonspecific

I have to say quite a lot of people on this thread are being quite hard with you.

I don't quite get it...

You have asked a reasonable question about why the rest of the UK do not get a say in if Scotland should be independent.

I don't want to sound like i am blowing my own trumpet, and i have not read through each response, but until I wrote my first post on this thread the concept of a nations right to self-determination had not been mentioned. All you seemed to be getting was the "stupid question, its up to Scottish folk if they want to be independent"..... but nobody was actually addressing why this was the case.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:11 PM
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a reply to: yorkshirelad

Read over my previous responses.

This all comes down to the concept of a nations right to self-determination under international law, Scotland and England for instance are two separate nations belonging to the same sovereign state. As a nation Scotland as the right to its own self-determination to decide though the democratic process if it wants to to become a independent sovereign state or not. This has to be done independently from the influence of the wider state.

Yes undoubtedly a Yes vote would have had huge consequences for the rUK but that does not give them the right under international law to have any say in the determination of a separate nation.

To be clear, this is not a opinion this is a fact, it is the legal reasoning behind not giving the rUK a say during the last Scottish referendum.
edit on 9-5-2015 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:12 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: nonspecific

I have to say quite a lot of people on this thread are being quite hard with you.

I don't quite get it...

You have asked a reasonable question about why the rest of the UK do not get a say in if Scotland should be independent.

I don't want to sound like i am blowing my own trumpet, and i have not read through each response, but until I wrote my first post on this thread the concept of a nations right to self-determination had not been mentioned. All you seemed to be getting was the "stupid question, its up to Scottish folk if they want to be independent"..... but nobody was actually addressing why this was the case.


Such is ATS, I asked a question knowing that it was an odd one.

I tried to put it out there, an abstract as you will because I was curious.

Firstly as to how the question would be recieved and secondly with all the tension out there weather members would be able to discuss a specific topic without bringing there own agenda into play and as per usual derailing the topic in question.

It's been fun.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:16 PM
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originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: nonspecific

I have to say quite a lot of people on this thread are being quite hard with you.

I don't quite get it...

You have asked a reasonable question about why the rest of the UK do not get a say in if Scotland should be independent.

I don't want to sound like i am blowing my own trumpet, and i have not read through each response, but until I wrote my first post on this thread the concept of a nations right to self-determination had not been mentioned. All you seemed to be getting was the "stupid question, its up to Scottish folk if they want to be independent"..... but nobody was actually addressing why this was the case.


Such is ATS, I asked a question knowing that it was an odd one.

I tried to put it out there, an abstract as you will because I was curious.

Firstly as to how the question would be recieved and secondly with all the tension out there weather....


"Whether". Sorry. Colonial #.



...members would be able to discuss a specific topic without bringing there own agenda into play and as per usual derailing the topic in question.


So it's YOUR premise and it's not up for debate? Sounds like it.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:17 PM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Yes undoubtedly a Yes vote would have had huge consequences for the rUK

Call me pedantic and off-topic if you like but can we please stop with the bull# rUK designation in this thread?
It annoyed me during the Scottish independence debate because if the Scots vote to go there is no rUK thing about any of it, it is the UK, just without the 'great' Britain when the Scots leave.
Perhaps the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland, but rUK?! That's just a lame internet meme.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:20 PM
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a reply to: intrepid

The spelling is my bad I had a major head trauma a few years ago, I no Im bad at speeling. im geting bettter


I seem to have angered you in some way? you seem intent on making my OP a negative thing, as I have said it was an abstract? A question to ask to see what the responses were.

I am unaware that I have tried to push any kind of agenda other than to keep the question on track and not diverse into racial anger or recent political debate already ongoing.

Again I appologise If this question has upset anyone as it was only ever that. A question.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:21 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

haha!

I actually agree with you rUK does annoy me

but I am very lazy so if i can make a short cut I am going to do it even if its something as simple as that.

I am a hypocrite, I know but meh, rUK is just easier when talking about Scottish independence.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:24 PM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Argh no, I hate it!! Lol.
It is not rUK, as much as some of our Northern English and Scottish members like to use, it is the UK without Scotland.
Stop with the lazy rUK folks, there is no such thing outside of interwebs world.



posted on May, 9 2015 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: nonspecific
I seem to have angered you in some way? you seem intent on making my OP a negative thing, as I have said it was an abstract? A question to ask to see what the responses were.


Angered? Not at all. It's incongruous with logic though. "I'm just asking a question..." crap. Let's be honest here. You ARE saying something here. What is it? Lay it on the line.



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