Kentucky ‘free range’ family loses custody of 10 kids over apparent ‘unschooling’

a reply to: mamabeth

Really? Nah...I think the biggest mistake they made was not providing adequate water and shelter for their kids, and letting them run unsupervised from the time they could start crawling.

That, and refusing to cooperate or register as a home-schooling family.
Regarding their social media profile, her filming of the "outdoor kitchen" was certainly incriminating. Stealing water from, and threatening their neighbor was another foul. There are slums in India that look better than this place.

How do they earn a living, I wonder? Do they ever go into town? They must, if they have a gallon of milk sitting there....and what about dog food, livestock feed, etc? Where do they get their clothes, and how do they pay for them?

Do they file taxes or get welfare? Do the parents even have SSNs and proof of id? Drivers licenses?
How did they purchase their vehicles?
What is their support system of family or friends? Are they a local charity case?

Her site looks "slick" and my initial impression of it was good - as I posted early in the thread. She lists resources for homeschooling, a "chores" list, and appears to know each of her kids' personalities and interests - all PLUSES. But, if it was all a facade - that's not cool either. A cry for help, maybe, from a twisted mind; or an act to make herself feel better? I don't know. In any case, the kids need competent adults to help guide this family out of what appears to be a downward spiral. They are living a 3rd-world existence, not a healthy off-grid one.

Are you saying the conditions are adequate? I personally wouldn't trust them to take care of a goldfish, let alone 10 kids. I can only imagine how "parentified" the older ones are.

a reply to: LDragonFire

I think that oldest who testified was not "hers" - he was the father's though, and was removed from his custody when he was preschool age (or kindergarten).

But, I agree with you all the way. I was "fooled" by their blog myself!

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Please submit flames with civility. What do you all think now?

I'm not bothered by the lack of registration as a homeschooler as the kids seem very bright and educated.
I don't care about the father's arrest record. If he's got a record, HE should be dealt with, but the children shouldn't be removed FOR THAT REASON.
Don't care that they don't have SSN or birth certificates or any of the other stuff, really. Kids are raised in much worse conditions right here in the US.

The oldest kid of the father does concern me. But how much does he remember (and how accurately) from when he was 4?

I need more information before I would approve of the kids being taken away. What do the older kids who live with the mother and father say? Is the father abusive NOW? If their home life is fine, should the kids be taken away because the father was once abusive of his son, maybe?

Need more info.

Absolutely agree with mamabeth - Stay off social media!

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
How do they earn a living, I wonder? Do they ever go into town? They must, if they have a gallon of milk sitting there....and what about dog food, livestock feed, etc? Where do they get their clothes, and how do they pay for them?

Do they file taxes or get welfare? Do the parents even have SSNs and proof of id? Drivers licenses?
How did they purchase their vehicles?
What is their support system of family or friends? Are they a local charity case?

Why is that anyone's business? If they don't have licenses and are driving cars, then the law can take care of that. If the animals and kids are well-fed, happy and educated, what does any of it matter?

I am big on privacy. I don't have a need to know how they're doing these things. If something they're doing is illegal, then fine them, arrest them, or otherwise handle it, but we don't need all the details to make a judgment about the situation.

I wouldn't want anyone thinking they have a right to the answer to all those questions about me...

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Apparently she is a pro dog-groomer, and they are not on government assistance. Good things.
He is the stay-at-home tender of the property, livestock and kids (nothing wrong with that at all).

I was just looking at her saveourfamily site and her FB page again - she has responses for all of the stuff.
So, that's comforting to know they DO have some income and support. There's a pic on her FB of the cabin they built - strange that only the tarps and stick-fence are shown in the news.

With his assaultive behavior toward the neighbor, it makes me question their integrity - that's why I thought of those questions.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I need more information before I would approve of the kids being taken away. What do the older kids who live with the mother and father say? Is the father abusive NOW? If their home life is fine, should the kids be taken away because the father was once abusive of his son, maybe?

All perfectly valid questions, and it would be prudent to ask the other kids (separate from their parents). But, having been in the field, I know these are the things that will be asked. Is it "public information". No. But the way the media has presented the case is scathing toward them; the way they present their side is much more sympathetic.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

as the kids seem very bright and educated.

According to what? That would go a long way to keeping the family intact, for sure.

On her FAQ, Nicole says the kids do socialize with people, they do go into town, etc. The vids she shows have smiling kids, yes.
All good signs.

This whole thing is a mess.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

The oldest kid of the father does concern me. But how much does he remember (and how accurately) from when he was 4?

Yes. My first thought. What is he actually remembering and what has he been told.

On her website she says they purchased a one room wood framed (uninsulated) cabin. Is she lying? That's a bit more then a lean-to.

a reply to: Annee

Yes. My first thought. What is he actually remembering and what has he been told.

Kids remember things from when they were 4 or 5. How did the father lose his parental rights? And if the son is lying, why didn't the father fight to keep custody of him?

originally posted by: Annee
On her website she says they purchased a one room wood framed (uninsulated) cabin. Is she lying? That's a bit more then a lean-to.

They did get a cabin some years ago. They have since returned it or sold it or something, I imagine for the money. I remember reading something where someone asked her about it and she said they sold it. She sounded a little embarrassed and tried to justify it by saying something like, "We like the fresh air and open spaces". Or something like that. I think she was too proud to say that they needed the money.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I'm not bothered by the lack of registration as a homeschooler as the kids seem very bright and educated.

And I'm not bothered that my son dropped out of high school, as he is VERY bright and well educated. School is not for everyone, and it's becoming LESS SO all the time.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Kids remember things from when they were 4 or 5. How did the father lose his parental rights? And if the son is lying, why didn't the father fight to keep custody of him?

I don't think the kid is lying. Perhaps the dad was a horrible father to him. But maybe he's repeating what he's heard. He said he got all the beatings... At 4? I don't know... the boy's story just doesn't gel with me somehow... But even if it's all true, perhaps the man has changed. A different wife, a different life. It doesn't mean he's still abusive. Let's hear what the other kids say about now, not 15 years ago.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
This is the post on there facebook:

We have allowed CHFS to inspect our property and interview our children multiple times. After every visit they have confirmed, and confirmed again today that our children are happy, healthy and well cared for and that our property is sufficient for their needs. Despite that, the judge decided as a result of the deliberations in today's hearing that our children will remain in CHFS care while they continue their investigation. Alex, my 19-year-old estranged son, testified in today's hearing. We are both heartbroken with the way Alex’s upbringing away from us and his strained relationship with his mother have affected him. Although we are sad our children will not be returned to us today, we have nothing to hide. We have cooperated with all requests made to us by CHFS and will continue to do so. We are confident that throughout this process Nicole and I will be shown to be the good parents that we are and that our family will be reunited. We thank everyone for all you have done for us and ask for continued prayers for our children. We want all our children to know that we love them and we are constantly with them in our hearts.

I think its the mother on the facebook page.

Here Are 7 Surprising Things You Need to Know About Joe and Nicole Naugler

a reply to: LDragonFire

Yeah, it's kind of unclear.
I'm still on the fence about the whole thing. I don't trust CPS, but I'm not sure I trust the family's version either.
Having years of experience working with children & families, my questions are from that perspective. Those are the things that an interviewer would want to know.

There MUST be a balance between 'hearsay' from neighbors and community and media vs the personal, subjective experience of the family members themselves.
Like, talking to the kids.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Why is that anyone's business? If they don't have licenses and are driving cars, then the law can take care of that. If the animals and kids are well-fed, happy and educated, what does any of it matter?

I've been watching the news to see how their criminal case hearing went this morning, but so far haven't seen any updates.

If the animals and kids are thriving, and the kids are happy and educated, then it doesn't matter. But it is all fodder for 'the system' to sort through in making their determination. Skilled interviewers who speak to each family member would be the best resource for finding the "truth" somewhere in the middle of what we're hearing.

This is from Homeschooled Anonymous.

I'm on my phone. Currently without Internet, so can't do much research.

homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com...

minors are not allowed to be questioned w out an adult present.......as far as I can recall

Not when it comes to an investigation into child abuse/neglect.

If the parents are uncooperative, the children could be removed until investigation is completed.

a reply to: Annee

Wow. Thanks so much for posting this, Annee.
A FORMER OFF-GRID, HOMESCHOOLED CHILD’S THOUGHTS ON THE NAUGLER FAMILY

I hope you all read it - it's written by a young man who grew up on a "real" homestead off the grid - and explains how he sees this situation (having lived it for his childhood).


The blogger's article is quite substantial.

I grew up in a similar environment.

My family bought 12 acres of land, 50 miles from the nearest town, in the North West back in 1982. We spent that first summer living in an army tent. During that first summer my father and mother and older brother built a 20 by 15 foot log cabin. That’s 300 square feet.

By snow fall we had a insulated, steel roofed, 300 square foot log home, it had a real cinderblock foundation, it had 3 double pained insulated windows, and it had a barrel stove.

We did not have electric, we did not have a well, we did not have indoor plumbing. Internet and cell phones did not exist in 1982. The nearest phone was at a neighbors home over three miles away. Then over the next 3 summers my father and mother built a 8 room, two story, glass windowed and hard wood floored, log home. It has a stone fireplace, a full basement, and a root cellar and a pantry.

They also built: an animal shed, a shop, a tool shed, and a woodshed.

During those years we became a working “homestead”, including 4 goats, two dozen chickens, geese, a small horse, a dog, 35 rabbits and two cats. We had a large garden as well. During none of this did we ever have: a well, a phone, air conditioning or refrigeration. We lit our home first with kerosene lamps and candles and then later with propane lanterns. We cooked our meals first on a wood stove, and later on a propane stove. We gathered our water from a local public well. (for drinking) and from a system of rain barrels, (for bathing and watering the garden.) After about 10 years we hooked up solar power and ran a system of electric lights.

It CAN be done, and done well. But this family isn't doing it well, at all.

Here's a testimony from someone who knows the family:

she used to work for me, the kids all smelled like pee, at the time they had the shed they all lived in. her children may look healthy but there are some serious problems going on. they would steal from me, olivia decided to just do it while starring me in the eye.

joe is a piece of work, my daughter got him a job at the hotel she worked at, and he was fired for many reasons, like enjoying nice hot showers on the clock, doing their family’s laundry in the hotels machines, this was discovered because the “clean” sheets and towels were suddenly covered in straw and dirt,he also would spend his time away from the desk and instead sit in one of the other rooms and watch espn, and finally he was fired for theft.

oh and during this time he burrowed money from my daughter to buy pot and then refused to pay her back and threatened her and her boyfriend. i finally had to talk to nichole about getting the money returned. and she had no idea he had even burrowed it.

she is not angel either, she would work her kids at my shop because she was pregnant and pay them 1.00 a dog and would go get herself McDonalds and they would have to buy their own food. i had to make rules that no child under 13 could be there because she was having children who were too small to be able to control a dog and i was worried they would get hurt.

i witnessed the burned hand and the gashed head and neither child got medical attention. i fired her because this family and their craziness was too much for me to handle and joe was trying to bully me so i banned him from my shop. they have had people donating to them on a regular basis as well as hitting up churches ect in our area.

in my opinion they do not really care about their children they care more about their “wholesome” life they are trying to portray to their mindless followers. on facebook, they also have had problems with cps and the police in the past so this it not a one time deal and they always record them and post them on fb to prove they are being harassed for their lifestyle, instead of the truth like their tags are expired and they have no insurance.

i have never been to their home and do not know its location aside from a generalized area. they have some group funding their state of the art new grooming shop so they can get out of poverty yet she is pregnant again and now they are raising money to buy themselves a house.. can we say scam? they are liars and manipulators and their kids are just pawns and that is my opinion

But, that's just a comment on the thread.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Happy and educated are not part of the equation.

Are the kids in good health, meaning are they feed enough to nourish their bodies, is there abuse like being beaten or sexual in nature and that is about it.

The state, nor the federal Govt has no business in defining happiness, nor is it supposed to compel parents to send their kids to school.

Here's more from the blogger posted in my previous response:

I could go on for pages about the myriad dangers from accident and infection and disease these children were being exposed to on a daily basis. I could mention the animal dung covering the whole area in a layer of slime, pounded into a grimy coating by the bare feet of ten children, draining with the rain and melting snow, down hill from the “homestead” into the pond that has now, after several years of occupation, apparently gone from being home to fish and turtles (in earlier photos) to being a mud pit doubling as an open sewer choked with animal dung.

I could mention the generator and gasoline cans, (visible in several photos) located right next to the shack ( there is an extreme danger of carbon monoxide poisoning killing the entire family, in fact, the only reason I suspect this hasn’t happened yet is the fact the dwelling is not enclosed on all four sides).

I could mention the filthy conditions of the “cooking area”, including dirt encrusted plastic cups, drifting smoke and food being eaten by the grimy unwashed hands of children as young as 4 who cooked their own meals, over the open flames. (also clearly visible in photos on the B.L.H. public Facebook page.)

I could mention the photos of dog bites, wasp stings, scrapes, cuts, and bruises.

I could mention that the BLH blog links to articles about how Tetanus shots aren’t needed as long as the: “wound bleeds, cus Tetanus can’t live in oxygen and there is oxygen in your blood” (I kid you not).

I could mention the fact that with out any doubt what so ever, this “homestead” also smells like an open sewer.

It does.

I know because I grew up on a farm/homestead.