Why Is Climate Change Theory So Hard to Understand?

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

The main purpose of the site is to deny ignorance, that includes debunking conspiracy theories that have nothing to support them.

Bull
Why do I see threads on tarot cards?

a reply to: rockpaperhammock

Good response!

There are so many variables and so much difficulty.

Yet still the sticking point seems to be that people don't 'believe' it is true, and this was a serious problem even before the manipulated data was exposed. The exposed manipulation simply confirmed for many what they already 'believed'.

The point shouldn't rest on belief! It should rest on data and now, no one trusts the data? So that's it then, we just think the entire study of this topic as it points toward man-made climate change is a giant corrupt conspiracy?

I give pause when I think that if we deny climate change, then it's business as usual and no one has to change or be responsible, we can just keep shuffling chairs until the house burns down.

Something from my personal experience - most oil field (my experince is with american-based oil companies) execs absolutely believe in man-made climate change. I don't want to name names, because professional trouble, but seriously - the back room conversations out here are very disturbing.

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

A lot of people hold onto their beliefs like a politician holds onto their lobby monies.
My question to you is, do your beliefs matter more to you than the truth?

Also kindly don't ignore the data manipulation debunking.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Would you care to bother and read the entire thread and see people using the terms interchangeably?

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: Herolotus

I have a better question.

Why did man made global warming theorist change the name to climate change?

You're so behind the times. Now it's called "climate disruption".

a reply to: Greathouse

Why does the entire thread's opinion on it matter? You made the claim that climate change replaced global warming and I proved you wrong.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

A lot of people hold onto their beliefs like a politician holds onto their lobby monies.
My question to you is, do your beliefs matter more to you than the truth?

Also kindly don't ignore the data manipulation debunking.

I'm going to assume you think that I want to believe global warming if fake and choose to ignore the truth.
So I will answer in the negative. No, I believe in facts.
Now I don't consider the facts that are being presented as truth.

a reply to: Kali74

Indeed they do, and I find this behavior confusing. To me the issue isn't very complicated -

1. We are partly or completely responsible for Climate Change.
2. Climate Change of this kind is a little understood natural phenomena.
3. Climate Change is a total fabrication.

Option three seems totally out. The climate is changing, the question simply seems to be 'why?' and 'into what?'.
Option two is a maybe, but for those who disagree with option #1, then option #2 should be just as disareeable due to lack of evidence.

Option one is quite probable, given that earth is a closed system that has been affected by human idustry. What I find facinating is how offensive option one is a concept. As you say, people like to hold on to their beliefs, yet still I want to know why! Why is this a belief so important to hold on to?

As a hypothetical, what if we acted on cliamte change? The most likely best result would be reduced pollution, new technology and industries, and extended human lifespan and prosperity - and that's even if the theory is WRONG. So why fight it? Personally i could stand to eat less beef, enjoy cleaner air and water, and see my fellow man with a little more prosperity.

I say all that because if the data is correct, it's too late to do anything anyway, the change is ongoing and there is no longer anything to be done to even slow it down, much less stop it. So why does it even matter what you 'believe', and why is it such a hot-button arguement here and in the public?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You proved nothing, you linked a source that every climate change a.k.a. global warming nut ignores.

originally posted by: Bilk22

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: Herolotus

I have a better question.

Why did man made global warming theorist change the name to climate change?

You're so behind the times. Now it's called "climate disruption".

Lol

I'm sure that too is subject to change.

a reply to: Herolotus

No.

Whenever someone writes that: deny climate change, means business as usual, blah, blah, blah. It makes me grit my teeth in frustration.

You fall for the usual all or nothing extremes. You either agree with me or you are the worst possible person imaginable is basically what you're saying.

If I don't believe in man-made climate change, I must not believe the climate changes at all. I am a filthy denier, and must be dumber than a box of rocks.

No.

I simply don't believe that the primary driver of a changing climate is mankind. There is no reason to doubt that climate changes. If it didn't, I'd be sitting under a mile or more of ice sheet, and we wouldn't have words for seasons.

When I say I don't believe in Climate Change, I am referring to the supposition that man's activities are so injurious to the system that I must be punitively taxed to somehow fix it. Btw, the punitive taxes are the only real solution that are actually proposed. No one has told me how that will fix anything, and if all the people telling me that I am causing Armageddon through my lifestyle actually believed it ... why do they continue to live an even more wasteful lifestyle than I do? Do as I say, not as I do. You lead by example and I'll believe them when they behave like they're killing the planet instead of simply bleating about it.

And of course, then there's the supposition that if I don't agree with you, then I must be outside right now dumping a toxic mélange of chemicals into the local river while I murder baby panda bears and wear rare bird of paradise feather head-dresses stapled to sea turtle shell hats.

Uh-huh, I don't care about the planet at all because I favor adapting instead of being forced to live in a cave burning my own dung while I eat bugs as per the suggestion of Kofi Anan while he and his UN fat cats continue to jet around the world in their private jets eating only the best Kobe beef, laughing all the way.

It's all about keeping theirs and taking ours.

I want clean, free energy as much as you do, but if you think carbon tax money will magically create it, you have another thing coming.

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: Krazysh0t

You proved nothing, you linked a source that every climate change a.k.a. global warming nut ignores.

Clearly you didn't read the article... Though if I'm wrong, feel free to prove me wrong.

a reply to: Herolotus

I think people also get caught up in how much we effect. I mean someone could push a boulder down a hill that lands on the side of a river which then causes the river to move around the boulder creating a point bar near it and a cut bank on the other side. In 50 years that cut bank can remove soil to the hill next it causing the houses up top to fall down the hill. Something as crazy as that affects the environment.

I mean it is no secret we seed clouds in an attempt to cause rain...that alone can effect the climate of an area. Now take into effect deforestation or things like that in a huge scale. Man made cities change wind patterns. Of course we change the climate...but how much. That is the real question people should ask..how much do humans change it..not if we change it.

a reply to: ketsuko

Quite sorry for being a bit sharp, but I certainly don't think yuou're awful or filthy or anything nuts like that. You seem thoughtful and passionate and well-spoken.

I think the carbon tax effort is exactly as you describe it, a complete and utter scam.

For my part I do lead by example, but that's my personal crazy and I'm not here to tell people how to live, I honestly could not care less. As I stated above, I'm a nihilistic fatalist. To my mind, regradless of the cause of Climate Change, it cannot be reversed and future generations are stuck with the consequences, whatever they may be.

I do think that the reason this is such a hot-button issue is because it does, certainly in the media, imply that people SHOULD change, and no one likes being told they are wrong, unhealthy, and irresponsible. Speaking from my history education though, throughout human history all we have ever been is wrong, unhealthy, and irresponsible - why should now be any different?

a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Why do you believe the facts aren't truth though?

a reply to: rockpaperhammock

I think people also get caught up in how much we effect. I mean someone could push a boulder down a hill that lands on the side of a river which then causes the river to move around the boulder creating a point bar near it and a cut bank on the other side. In 50 years that cut bank can remove soil to the hill next it causing the houses up top to fall down the hill. Something as crazy as that effects the environment.

I mean it is no secret we seed clouds in an attempt to cause rain...that alone can effect the climate of an area. Now take into effect deforestation or things like that in a huge scale. Man made cities change wind patterns. Of course we change the climate...but how much. That is the real question people should ask..how much do humans change it..not if we change it.

Exactly! I offically nominate you to take over the thread

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Why I've watched your replies you do that regularly to yourself.

a reply to: Herolotus

thanks I appreciate it..but I say the same thing in every thread and everyone ignores me lol...I can't even get a good argument these days...I go looking for a fight and im ignored! Oh the pain!!!

It is one of those topics that kind of cracks me up because...no matter what you believe...both attitudes share the same result. Change is coming and id rather be prepared for it now than later. I think a lot depends on where you live. I have spent time in about 4 countries (living)...to include living on a coast. All you have to do is talk to locals...that have lived in places for years. Some will tell you exactly what is different. I trust that more than any data...and not every person has a story to share but the ones that do are pretty damn cautionary.

a reply to: rockpaperhammock

Right? I spent a fair part of my professional career on the US eastern seaboard and in the US southwest, and in both areas you get the same thing - the locals know the change. The east was the most obvious, the NC Outer Banks being the most troubled.

As far as arguements go, I find the religious forum is gold. I knew I would be getting into it here, as both sides share a similar and polarized quality of opinion. I find it intersting how neither side has much reasonable doubt, and I never trust anyone who is too certain about anything.

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: Herolotus

I have a better question.

Why did man made global warming theorist change the name to climate change?

I didn't. I'm a man made global warming theorist and I still call it man made global warming.