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Visualizing a Decade of drone Strikes _ An interactive Death map of Obama's Drone Games

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posted on May, 10 2015 @ 03:13 PM
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originally posted by: Rosinitiate
Anyone who genuinely feels drone striking people with hellfire missiles as justified are seriously delusional. This isn't about war, this is about indiscriminate killing in countries with far inferior capabilities. It's akin to dropping napalm on an anthill. Where is the honor? We kill them there so we don't have to fight them here right? Never mind the innocent, better them than us right?

Imagine walking to the market and hearing the buzz of drones overhead never knowing when or if it will unleash a hellfire missile on you or your family because someone from a computer screen hundreds or thousands of miles away determines that your beard matches that of someone we think matches the beard of a known "terrorist".

Remember all the international support Israel received when they were under seige by "suicide bombers" (many im sure Patsy's). So inhumane and indiscriminate but should we compare death statistics? Hell, why not save everyone the time and pull a Fallujah, I'm sure there's enough white phosphorus laying about.

ETA: the very thought that my country does this as a matter of policy makes me really *snip* sick.


Put me down as one of those deluded people. However, it is equally deluded to put honor and war in the same sentence. There is no nobility, honor or morality in war. The only honorable thing is not to fight wars but if you do make war as horrible as to leave the enemy with the overwhelming desire to never wage war again.

It is a tactic by our enemy to reside in homes and hospitals so they can get the sympathy by folks like yourself. You are falling to exactly what they are trying to do. They pull at your emotions and if they convince enough of you they think they can win the political side of the war. They have rolled out many civilians both wounded and dead for the news cameras. Many times they are responsible for the deaths not us! People like you eat this propaganda up because it touches your feelings.

In Vietnam, the communists learned quickly to use the US news media to their advantage. They rolled out many dead bodies during Tet of 1968. The news had the war in every living room each night for all to see. This gave rise to demonstrations in colleges by left leaning students.




posted on May, 10 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: buddah6

originally posted by: Rosinitiate
Anyone who genuinely feels drone striking people with hellfire missiles as justified are seriously delusional. This isn't about war, this is about indiscriminate killing in countries with far inferior capabilities. It's akin to dropping napalm on an anthill. Where is the honor? We kill them there so we don't have to fight them here right? Never mind the innocent, better them than us right?

Imagine walking to the market and hearing the buzz of drones overhead never knowing when or if it will unleash a hellfire missile on you or your family because someone from a computer screen hundreds or thousands of miles away determines that your beard matches that of someone we think matches the beard of a known "terrorist".

Remember all the international support Israel received when they were under seige by "suicide bombers" (many im sure Patsy's). So inhumane and indiscriminate but should we compare death statistics? Hell, why not save everyone the time and pull a Fallujah, I'm sure there's enough white phosphorus laying about.

ETA: the very thought that my country does this as a matter of policy makes me really *snip* sick.


Put me down as one of those deluded people. However, it is equally deluded to put honor and war in the same sentence. There is no nobility, honor or morality in war. The only honorable thing is not to fight wars but if you do make war as horrible as to leave the enemy with the overwhelming desire to never wage war again.

It is a tactic by our enemy to reside in homes and hospitals so they can get the sympathy by folks like yourself. You are falling to exactly what they are trying to do. They pull at your emotions and if they convince enough of you they think they can win the political side of the war. They have rolled out many civilians both wounded and dead for the news cameras. Many times they are responsible for the deaths not us! People like you eat this propaganda up because it touches your feelings.

In Vietnam, the communists learned quickly to use the US news media to their advantage. They rolled out many dead bodies during Tet of 1968. The news had the war in every living room each night for all to see. This gave rise to demonstrations in colleges by left leaning students.


I suspect you need to travel more to understand context. Besides if they hide in schools and hospitals then go in and get them if you want them so bad. Don't just obliterate the #ing hospital, savvy? We have badass weaponry, so why do my tax dollars pay for 90 degrees pistols with tracer bullets, timed self detonating shells, flag, smoke grenades, ACOG and versions other goodies, if we're to scared to lose some lives against a bunch of cave dwellers with AK47's who have a thing about killing homosexuals?

From all the anti-gay rhetoric, you'd think the Catholic Church and Rebulican Party would go Gaga for them.
edit on 10-5-2015 by Rosinitiate because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2015 @ 06:03 PM
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a reply to: Rosinitiate

I am absolutely sure that I have traveled more than you! And who interjected the homosexual thing anyway? From what you say, it is obvious that you are thinking emotionally about warfighting. I keeps saying that war is ugly and immoral but you don't or wouldn't understand this. There is nothing honorable or noble about war. If you want fairness in war then you are deluded.

The very last thing a soldier wants to do is to loose a fellow soldier...savvy? If I could push a button 6000 miles away and destroy a high value target ... then I would without compunction.



posted on May, 11 2015 @ 04:55 AM
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a reply to: buddah6

Oh so you are a denier of 9/11 inside Job.

Sorry I didn't know that.

I won't bother even communicating.



posted on May, 11 2015 @ 03:22 PM
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originally posted by: TorinoFer
a reply to: buddah6

Oh so you are a denier of 9/11 inside Job.

Sorry I didn't know that.

I won't bother even communicating.

We never had a conversation about 9/11 and you stop talking. What does 9/11 have to do with fighting and drone strikes?



posted on May, 11 2015 @ 03:33 PM
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Unfortunately I'm one of the delusional ones also. I have traveled...plenty...to places where people wanted to kill me for not only what I do but for who I am and what I stand for. Although I cant have any idea of where you have traveled please appreciate my POV. As said above war isn't glorious however a hell fire launch CAN be no different than a well placed sniper round. For the most part these are PRECISION hits and collateral damage is VERY often considered over the value of the target and many times strikes are postponed for better timing where the risk can be mitigated better.

Some of your points not make sense to me, such as imagine drones over head and not knowing when I may be killed. How does this apply to people who are innocent. Should I fear going to the gas station because robber with guns exist? We don't target people because they look like someone. We target people after HOURS AND HOURS or surveillance, witnessing a event or intent to do bad things...

Striking from a drone is not that different from a traditional aircraft with the exception of one MAJOR thing, the operators are a critical part of the intel so less is lost in translation

...intel verifies a target...target is located...aircraft dispatched...target acquired...weapon release...done

I can assure you we don't smoke a hospital for a couple of badies hiding inside, that's a ridiculous example, although I get the point. I believe we are masters of proportionality of force in most cases that involve collateral damage.



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 05:38 PM
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originally posted by: buddah6
a reply to: Rosinitiate

I am absolutely sure that I have traveled more than you! And who interjected the homosexual thing anyway? From what you say, it is obvious that you are thinking emotionally about warfighting. I keeps saying that war is ugly and immoral but you don't or wouldn't understand this. There is nothing honorable or noble about war. If you want fairness in war then you are deluded.

The very last thing a soldier wants to do is to loose a fellow soldier...savvy? If I could push a button 6000 miles away and destroy a high value target ... then I would without compunction.






I am absolutely sure that I have traveled more than you!



Perhaps, but I doubt that greatly, traveling was a staple of my last job for over 10 years. I do think emotionaly when it comes to war, .....um, people's lives are at stake and not just my countryman. The very last thing I want are innocent women and children maimed or murderd by my countries acts of aggression.

Besides hombre, if disproportionate strikes were an acceptable thing than it wouldn't be considered a war crime.....savvy?


As it stands, what is happening is disproportionate and SHOULD be considered a war crime. Regardless how "safe" it makes you feel 6000 miles away. To think otherwise is cowardice as far as I'm concerned, but go ahead and justify it any way you like, history will judge those actions and your unemotional thoughts.



posted on May, 12 2015 @ 07:48 PM
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a reply to: Rosinitiate

Please explain how you feel these strikes are disproportionate? This is a serious question, not just trying to be a smart a$$,

Under many circumstances we are hitting targets in vehicles or in groups with materials, a small guided missile seems like a perfect choice to me. We could be dropping 500lb bombs but don't because we choose to limit/mitigate collateral damage.



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 01:05 AM
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a reply to: wileel

Ahh gone are the good ol days where Lots of bombs and shooting goes on but nobody gets hurt and husbands return to their wives and boyfriends returned to get their beutiful girlfriends and she says yes to a perposal and they ride off to the sunset on a horse named trigger....

Oh wait, that was a Disney movie made for children.

Back to reality,... war sucks,... people die.



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 01:11 AM
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a reply to: wileel

Sorry, wasnt meant at you. Hit the wrong quote button lol.
edit on 13-5-2015 by smirkley because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 02:29 AM
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a reply to: buddha
That is complete BS! We used the bombs to end the war without suffering tens of thousands or more casualties of our troops who have been fighting years already. Pick up a history book once in awhile.

edit on 13/5/15 by spirit_horse because: typo



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 02:35 AM
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a reply to: crazyewok
That is BS too, Civilians support war fighters every day. The fact they are with the terrorists should tell you something. They are involved. Don't want to die, stay away from terrorists!



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 02:48 AM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals
These last 2 replies leave me wondering if there is any humanity left in our country.
How is this any different from suicide bombers with vest blowing up a bus with a single soldier on it?
(besides the fact one must be willing to die instead of pushing a button and watching a video screen while munching doritos)




I wrestled with what you said my first reaction was.....No you are wrong.....But why are you wrong....Hmm. And than it hit me you are in fact right on the money. Thank you for making me ask myself this hard question.



Drones are wrong....War should not be easy. Where does this slippery slope end.........
edit on 13-5-2015 by SubTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 06:29 AM
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originally posted by: wileel
a reply to: Rosinitiate

Please explain how you feel these strikes are disproportionate? This is a serious question, not just trying to be a smart a$$,

Under many circumstances we are hitting targets in vehicles or in groups with materials, a small guided missile seems like a perfect choice to me. We could be dropping 500lb bombs but don't because we choose to limit/mitigate collateral damage.


Rant:

Because the War on Terrorism is about as effective as the War on Drugs. How many years now have we been drone striking desert folk under Obama? How many more under Bush? Where has that gotten us?

Off rant:

We don't know for sure who we're killing with drone strikes half the time. Many, many times the Intel is just wrong and people die.....often, USUALLY civilians. The only true success from drone strikes are:

1.) pissing off those who lose families creating real terrorists.
2.) propaganda on the success of drone strikes.

Why is it dissproportionate? Well let's see, Hellfire Cruise Missile vs AK47.



posted on May, 13 2015 @ 08:11 PM
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a reply to: Rosinitiate

Hmm.....interesting POV.

Firstly, I want to say thank you for answering my question instead of dancing around it like some do, that is much appreciated.
I'll ignore the rant material for the most part, but would like to say I tend to agree with you as far as it seems like a fight that cant be won regardless of who is in office. However please don't mix a leader with a method, these are apples and oranges...drone strikes are a tool, just like sanctions, operators on the ground, and ballistic missiles.

Now on to the "off rant" comments. I hate to say it but you are incorrect. Granted target intel has been bad, there is a human part in the process and we are not infallible, however I can assure you that it is VERY good. I wont give a percentage because I don't have the REAL data to make one, and honestly I don't know if anyone can make a 100% accurate one (you know that whole 3 sides to the story thing....mine, yours, and the truth). You are correct, there are times where good/innocent people get hurt, unfortunately as has been said people get hurt during battle, regardless of the tool used. How many innocent people get killed by stray gunfire? I promise its WAY more than hellfires....soldiers (on all sides) fire THOUSANDS of rounds in battles and VERY few make their mark.

As to your "successes" of drone strikes, well your right again, BUT not only from the angles you are insinuating.
1.) pissing off peole. Yup that happens...but doesn't matter how it happens...riffle bullet, land mine, IED, suicide vest, nuke, ect... all have the same result...pissed off families...on BOTH sides!!
2.)propaganda. Yup but the baddies are using it WAY more than us. I have seen people remove weapons from vehicles AFTER a strike to make it look like we hit innocents...that s#1t happens ALOT and nobody ever hears about that.

To the original question about proportionality...I still don't see it as overkill. I don't think you realize what we really target and hit most of the time. Rarely is a dude walking down the street and then smacked the head with a missile. More often its a car or small building...an troops M4 isn't gonna do much against that, so we use anti material weapons. VERY precise ones that wont risk any of our lives trying to storm the building.

Don't you think using technology to potentially reduce the risk of lives can be a good thing? Lets be honest here, its the decisions to police the world that need to change, not the tools to do it...wouldn't you agree?



posted on May, 14 2015 @ 05:25 AM
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originally posted by: wileel
a reply to: Rosinitiate

Don't you think using technology to potentially reduce the risk of lives can be a good thing? Lets be honest here, its the decisions to police the world that need to change, not the tools to do it...wouldn't you agree?



For starters, there have been many examples of drone strikes hitting schools and various other shelters. The knee-jerk response is well terrorists like to hide with civilians, which is a cop out. There are countless examples of failed Intel leading to a strike on such places. Father taking lunch to school for child and Intel mistakes him for a jihadist and bombs the school....FAIL. It was reported in MSM I'd Google for you but need to go to work.....not bombing houses but building them. I guess war could be job security huh?

Yes technology can reduce risk. Like using the drone as surveillance and sending in an elite unit trained for such things. Quietly eliminate target all stealth like....we got the technology for that.

#dronesareforpussies

And yes I agree, we need to stop policing the world. Focus our energy on demilitarizing our own police and use the surpluss from these decisions to rebuild our infrastructure and modernize border security, citizenship processes, health care and education. But who wants that?
edit on 14-5-2015 by Rosinitiate because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2015 @ 09:19 PM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: Xeven

Where we differ is I believe all these drone strikes are doing is creating the conditions to recruit more terrorists. People frustrated that family and friends are being killed for no reason have nothing left to lose so they make it their goal to kill Americans. Were I in their shoes I think I would feel the same.

You believe that these people were already enemies of the US and to a degree you are correct. But look at the percentage of actual combatants we are killing with these strikes - 2 or 3 for every 100 innocent victims. I don't find such collateral damage acceptable, period.

We did the same in WW2 but arguably we were facing an enemy that did threaten to destroy and take over the United States. I would argue that is certainly not the case today, we don't face Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan but mostly very simple people in a far flung corner of the world where we have no business being in the first place


That's exactly how I feel. Now if you can look past the source hosting the speaker who is Noam Chomsky he makes that exact point.
www.youtube.com...



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