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2 very simple question for chemtrail believers...

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posted on May, 5 2015 @ 01:55 PM
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Hello all, I joined hours ago just to reply to this thread and try and educate some of you. I will be as brief as possible and will post a separate thread if there is a way to do so here without spending money.
To answer Opie's question. Yes, I call them out and I immediately unfollow and I made my own page to try and get good info and debate out there. I even went to Dane with what I believe to be the truth and though he could not dispute what I had told him he still chooses to remain firmly entrenched in what cannot be proven.
I am sure you are all aware that no matter where the truth lies it is a complex subject in many ways. These are the fundamentals. One 'disclaimer' before i begin. Whether or not I myself use the term, the word 'chemtrail' is a legitimate one. Whether talking about a campfire smoke, car exhaust, or jet aircraft emissions; they are all trails of chemicals. All that needs to be argued is what effect if any they may or may not have.
OK now, if most of you here would take the time to step away from the CT sites and get some data from the dry ( pun totally intended) scientific data, the issue becomes abundantly and frighteningly clear. I am going to bottom line it for you now in two words. WATER VAPOR. More exactly' EXCESS water vapor in the upper Troposphere. Stay with me now.
Water vapor is the most influential substance in our climate by an overwhelming magnitude. Water vapor magnifies the effects of all other Green House Gases (GHG's) in our atmosphere.
In the 50 or so years since the dawn of widespread commercial jet airline traffic, the climate's capacity for retaining water vapor has nearly doubled. Today, worldwide air traffic dumps around 20 million tons of water vapor per day into the upper Troposphere. Many more tons find their way up their through strictly anthropogenic means but I will stick with the airplanes.
This process creates a 'positive feedback loop' The water vapor causes the climate to heat up. The warmer climate allows it to retain even more water vapor and so on.....Generally speaking, the more that goes up there, the less comes down. This effect of water vapor on its own is devastating enough but it is not the whole picture yet. Now we must add aerosol particulates into the equation.
Aerosol particulates ( which are in indisputably present in our climate in excessive amounts) Dramatically disrupt the hydrological processes in our upper troposphere. These excess particulates interacting with the excess water vapor is what what we are seeing unfold before our eyes. As horrible as it looks. The effects on our climate are far worse. Aerosols 'supercharge' the positive feedback. In the constant competition for water vapor that goes on in our atmosphere aerosols overtake natural forms of nucleation allowing the retention of even more water vapor, while also REFLECTING back much necessary sunlight. Like I said, it's complex.
Finally, there is Methane to consider. Firstly, for its alarming increase recently in our atmosphere. Secondly because when it oxidizes into our atmosphere it creates WATER VAPOR. And thirdly, because that process I just mentioned is itself 'suprcharged' by the aerosols. Whew!!! Now to geoengineering.
Denying the history is idiotic. So is basing your arguments on what cannot be proven. Exposing SRM programs would be near impossible. Because of the chemical process it would take very few planes emitting invisible agents to create the conditions for every aircraft subsequently passing through to assist in blotting out the sky. I don't care if SRM's are the cause or not. the effects of water vapor and aerosols are undeniable. It is not going away and it will get much, much worse. Thanks. Happy hunting.




posted on May, 5 2015 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: Bilk22

Pretty lame argument. Why aren't you worried the moon will crash into the earth. Surely you can see it up there.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 02:08 PM
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edit on 5-5-2015 by Ignomen because: it's my first day



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 02:15 PM
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a reply to: Ignomen

Look again. He wasn't even talking to you. As your new ill just point out that when you click on the reply button on a post, your reply says exactly who you are replying to. You owe the guy an apology.


Edit to add, I see you noticed

edit on 5-5-2015 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: Ignomen

One thing I disagree with is your assertion that the term chemtrail is a legitimate one. It was invented by scsmmers as a way of extracting money whilst spreading fear about a global spraying operation that does not exist.

It does not cover other things, like fire smoke etc because they contain chemicals. EVERYTHING contains chemicals so such a distinction is pointless and meaningless. Better call things by the names they've always had, then people know what you're talking about. Otherwise interesting first post.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 02:26 PM
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a reply to: neveroddoreven99

It may just do that some time in our distant future when our Sun becomes unstable and the orbital mechanics regarding our solar system change. Don't worry through life on earth will be well fried by then.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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As far as lies are concerned: the whole idea of chemtrails rests upon the foundational idea that contrails can't persist, and therefore any trail that does persist has to be a chemtrail. I've asked at least 50 chemtrail believers in Youtube comments and other forums why they believe this to be the case, since there's no physiscs to back that notion up. I've never received a straight reply.

In my opinion, the reason why chemtrail believers can't answer that question is because they aren't being told what the reason is in any of the popular chemtrail media, such as the WITWATS movie or Geoengineeringwatch.com. Instead, when one asks critical questions, no matter how polite and subtly couched, one gets called a disinfo agent, cointelpro, or something along those lines.

So we'd have to ask where the notion that contrails can't persist comes from. I'm very curiuos about that, since every other cloud can persist without any problems given the right conditions, so why not a contrail? And a contrail is effectively just a cirrus cloud, so why make such strange claims about it?

This to me is the most basic lie that pretty much every chemtrail believer unquestioningly believes in. If you're a chemtrail believer, please explain to me why you believe it to be true, and what your reasoning is to believe it.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 04:14 PM
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a reply to: payt69

Contrails cannot persist was the very first thing I ever saw said in relation to chemtrails over a decade ago. Back then it was simpler. There were no allusions or connections with cloud seeding, geo engineering or anything else. It was simply that 'contrails cannot persist for more than a minute or so', so anything else you see is the government spraying you illegally. And Give us your money to fight it, the truth will be revealed shortly, etc etc, lol. That's something that Johnny-come-lately chemtrail believers are clearly oblivious to, having only exposed to the improved, multi-layered scam that is chemtrails today. The original premise was so flimsy that not enough people were donating, so it was beefed up a bit. The problem is, even people with no intention of giving money to anyone are believing this crap.

I've seen it said that contrails can't persist because they are ice, and the sun melts the ice. Somewhat ignoring the fact that cirrus clouds up there all day are also ice.

I've slso seen it said that contrails can't persist because the 'steam' condenses as the heat of the engine cools. Thus illustrating the level of "knowledge" required to believe in chemtrails.

I too, would fascinated to hear what other explanations may be forthcoming.

I do like the one that goes "even if contrails do persist and spread, that doesn't disprove chemtrails" as if that doesn't actually dismiss the very reason that chemtrails are supposed to exist in the first place.




edit on 5-5-2015 by waynos because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 05:57 PM
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originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: ISawItFirst

Does his paper also explain how literally hundreds of thousands of people have managed to keep it a secret? If not millions of people? Across the globe? In hundreds of cities and dozens of countries?



You can go ahead and ask yourself the same question about the Manhattan project and how tens of thousands if not in the hundred thousand range of people kept that secret... in the middle of New York no less!! It is possible.

edit..hint: it is compartmentalization

edit on 07/17/2009 by Mumbotron because: hint



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:01 PM
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a reply to: Mumbotron

There were a lot of leaks in the Manhattan Project.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Mumbotron

There were a lot of leaks in the Manhattan Project.


Can you prove that?



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:06 PM
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a reply to: Mumbotron

From the Department of Energy:


"Since September 1943, investigations were conducted of more than 1,500 'loose talk' or leakage of information cases and corrective action was taken in more than 1,200 violations of procedures for handling classified material…. Complete security of information could be achieved only by following all leaks to their source."

io9.com...

blog.nuclearsecrecy.com...



But it also makes clear that the effort was dogged by leaks and espionage, and it reveals a huge blind spot on the government’s part: a lack of awareness that a wartime ally, the Soviet Union, was bent on stealing Manhattan Project secrets and developing its own nuclear bombs.

From 1943 through 1945, investigators cataloged 1,500 leaks, 200 acts of sabotage and 100 confirmed cases of espionage, but maintained that their diligence “prevented the passing of any substantial amount of project information.”

www.nytimes.com...



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:11 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Of those "leaks"... most were considered loose talk or inappropriate handling of secure materials (a protocol violation that was logged). Really mostly infractions. And the program was successful anyways. We are straying from the main point which is that there is lots of experience in compartmentalization of big secrets involving thousands or more people within the US military. Lessons have been learned... do you think they are any better at it today Zaphod?
edit on 07/17/2009 by Mumbotron because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:15 PM
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a reply to: Mumbotron

But they were leaks. There was enough information released that the Soviets were able to build a bomb based on the information they got from the program. It was far from a successful example of compartmentalization. If the most secret program in US military history had that many leaks, what makes you think that something on this scale would have absolutely zero leaks whatsoever, in its entire history.

Every program has leaks of some kind. You can find evidence of it all over. But not this. This has had absolutely zero leaks. Nothing. Not one. Not even a tiny one. No program is THAT good.
edit on 5/5/2015 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:21 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Truth be told... we can't discuss the most successful black projects since the info hasn't been disclosed. We can however think about trillions of dollars that are unaccounted for in past audits and a large scale heroin production in the M.E. guarded by western military and wonder how that money is being spent. Seems like whatever they are spending it on, they are getting away with it.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:26 PM
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a reply to: Mumbotron

If you know where to look, you can find a LOT of information on black projects floating around. You'd be shocked at how much you can learn, or how much people are willing to tell you about. But not one person has ever leaked anything about this operation. Amazing really.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:37 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Mumbotron

If you know where to look, you can find a LOT of information on black projects floating around. You'd be shocked at how much you can learn, or how much people are willing to tell you about. But not one person has ever leaked anything about this operation. Amazing really.


How about you take a look at this: www.weathermodification.com...

That's a private company that currently has weather mod... spraying planes in the sky among other weather mod tech and research that is ongoing.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: Mumbotron

Yeah, cloud seeding. That's been going on for decades already and is well known. Cloud seeding is nothing like chemtrails supposedly are. For one thing, it requires preexisting clouds.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 06:42 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Bilk22




Prove they're liars.


Has anyone ever gone up and tested one while it's in the sky?

You see until that actually happens then anyone who says chemtrails contain heavy chemicals such as barium and aluminum are lying to you because they don't have proof chemtrails actually contain those things.

See how easy that is?


I have made an offer any number of times. My lab has a Learjet 25D that would be perfect for trapping a sample and I will rent it for the cost of fuel alone (300 gallons of Jet A for the first hour) And my lab can do the testing since we have the capabilities for GC/MS, HPLC, X-ray diffraction/crystallography and a number of other qualitative tests. For some reason there have been no takers. That's very telling.



posted on May, 5 2015 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

I didn't know that there was any direct implication of anything other than weather modification. I suppose the incident in !935 where the US military sprayed Bacillus globigii from ships along the San Francisco shoreline to study disease transmission in biological warfare could be a historical reference that would have people weary. Many of the "chem trail" deniers won't concede to the weather modification facts I have noticed. So now we have arrived at... yes they are spraying stuff... all we need now is a sample and we will know for sure what is in it.



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