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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
No, the Torah has NOT changed.
The Torah is what our OT is. We didn't change anything.
Who's we? If you look into the accounts of Sodom and Gomorrah, the complaints and the reasoning behind the Judgement, you'd see that the modern Torah's account, where the men of the city demand that Lot turn over the sojourners, Angels, it was to bring the sojourners to a Judge, as was the custom of the city, where the sojourners would be tortured in ways described in the book of Jasher.
It wasn't ever about sex, in the Torah. It was about depraved torture and thievery. The suggestion that Sodom was destroyed due to homosexuality came much, much later.
And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
It was illegal in Sodom, and the surrounding towns, to take in and feed sojourners. All visitors had to appear before a judge, in Sodom, and they were refused any food. Lot's first daughter was burned alive for feeding a sojourner by the people of Sodom.
Philo The Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo (20 BC - 50 AD) described the inhabitants of Sodom in an extra biblical account: "As men, being unable to bear discreetly a satiety of these things, get restive like cattle, and become stiff-necked, and discard the laws of nature, pursuing a great and intemperate indulgence of gluttony, and drinking, and unlawful connections; for not only did they go mad after other women, and defile the marriage bed of others, but also those who were men lusted after one another, doing unseemly things, and not regarding or respecting their common nature, and though eager for children, they were convicted by having only an abortive offspring; but the conviction produced no advantage, since they were overcome by violent desire; and so by degrees, the men became accustomed to be treated like women, and in this way engendered among themselves the disease of females, and intolerable evil; for they not only, as to effeminacy and delicacy, became like women in their persons, but they also made their souls most ignoble, corrupting in this way the whole race of men, as far as depended on them" (133-35; ET Jonge 422-23).[24]
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
Honestly, I don't care how or when the word "Sodomite" got perverted to mean male homosexuals. The fact is, the oldest texts that we have don't mention anything at all about homosexuality, while enumerating the shocking sins of Sodom and Gomorrah.
It happened before Christianity.
People will always disagree.
Humans have instinct, emotion and logic, which gives us the upper hand above environmental stimuli.
Humans aren't animals as we were created apart from animals.
Why is it so important that every free thinking individual accept homosexuality as normal?
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
It happened before Christianity.
I don't believe that. There is no suggestion of male on male rape in the Torah version of the crimes of Sodom and Gomorrah. These translations come from the King James version, which is rife with questionable translations. Besides, Kings and 2 Kings aren't part of the Torah.
Why would Jews, Jesus, or any of his followers condemn male prostitutes, who were mostly not freemen, but slaves, sometimes they were freed slaves, who had no other skills? Slaves can't say "No" to their owners.
Torah is not just about liberty, Torah liberates in a radical way. Yet here you have these laws about buying and selling slaves. What's going on? Okay, they're not really slaves. Slaves are people owned by other people. In Torah law, you never have complete ownership over anything. These slaves rest on the seventh day and Jewish holidays, cannot be physically or sexually abused and are obligated in many mitzvot. So they are really more like indentured servants.
The early sages would give their servants from every dish on their table. They would feed their animals and their servants before sitting to their own meals. Does it not say (Psalms 123:2), "As the eyes of the servant to the hand of his master; as the eyes of the maid to her mistress [so our eyes are towards the L-rd our G-d...]"? So, too, you should not denigrate a servant, neither physically nor verbally. The Torah made him your servant to do work, not to be disgraced. Do not treat him with constant screaming and anger, rather speak with him pleasantly and listen to his complaints. Such were the good ways in which Job took pride when he said, "Did I ever despise the judgment of my servant and my maid when they argued with me? Did not my Maker make him, too, in the belly; did not the same One form us both in the womb?"
Deuteronomy 23:17
'There shall be no cult prostitute of the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a cult prostitute of the sons of Israel. You shall not bring the hire of a harlot, or the wages of a male prostitute, into the house of the Lord your God in payment for any vow; for both of these are an abomination to the Lord your God.'
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy
Jewish law didn't permit any kind of prostitution, even though it did sneak through their gates, sometimes.
Deuteronomy 23:17
'There shall be no cult prostitute of the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a cult prostitute of the sons of Israel. You shall not bring the hire of a harlot, or the wages of a male prostitute, into the house of the Lord your God in payment for any vow; for both of these are an abomination to the Lord your God.'
Any kind pf prostitution, whether it be ritual sex and temple prostitution, male prostitution or just good old fashion "corner hooker" prostitution, it was all already considered illegal, and was condemned according to Jewish law.
The only prostitution that Paul and the New Testament texts could condemn, including male prostitution, had to be in regards to the Gentiles.
originally posted by: OpinionatedB
You aren't going to change what the bible says, and we wont re-interpret it to suit you. It is what it is and we believe what we believe and you believe what you believe.
originally posted by: AnuTyr
a reply to: Ghost147
Psychopathy is a mental disease that very much is a state of mind. Because, a persons State of mind depends upon if they are anti-social or not. It wasn't just some abreviation of a *saying* i meant it quite literally. State of mind.
originally posted by: AnuTyr
And yes being gay is a fetish, I don't know where you are getting the idea of pedophilacs as wanting a romantic relationship with children.
originally posted by: AnuTyr
Capturing children, raping them and dumping them in the woods does not constitute a romantic relationship. it is acting out a sexual fetish because it is a desire not a nessesity as much as you make it seem like it.
originally posted by: AnuTyr
I am sorry if my conversation has infuriated you so much that you do not really comprehend my out of the box thinking but i think you are farther from the truth are and mostly mirroring the expectations of western cultural society.
originally posted by: AnuTyr
Being gay is as much a fetish as anything else. necrophila ect.
originally posted by: AnuTyr
What sexual orientation is a necrophiliac? A deadist? Lol seriously?
originally posted by: AnuTyr
There is what is considered normal behavior, and then there is abnormal behavior caused by an abnormality.
Are gay people the majority or minority? because if they were the majority, then it wouldn't be considered weird, bizare, or a state of mental ilness now would it?
I guess god got it wrong when he said he wasn't the author of confusion.
1 Corinthians NET
21It is written in the law: “By people with strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, yet not even in this way will they listen to me,” says the Lord.
. . .
31For you can all prophesy one after another, so all can learn and be encouraged. 32Indeed, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, 33for God is not characterized by disorder but by peace.
originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
originally posted by: TsukiLunar
a reply to: ketsuko
Exactly. Being gay is the same as being a pedophile. There both has destructive as the other. Every time I watch gay porn I think " this is exactly the same as watching a child being horribly violated in the most hurtful of ways." Quick question what is God's opinion on pedophilia?
originally posted by: WarminIndy
Aren't you glad we don't flip out and do something bad to you?
Now post one of Mohammed, or is Christianity the religion you like to sacrilege?