Woman who failed physical exam to become firefighter

originally posted by: Klassified
Are the physical requirements for the job, equal to on duty situations? And are the tests geared toward men specifically, making them inequitable overrall?

What's this? You're suggesting that a difficult physical test may be exclusionary to women? Really now? I thought anything a man could do, a woman could too?

(Actually that last line is a lie. I DO NOT believe that to be the case... but I'm old school and believe traditional gender roles were there for a reason and common sense trumps idealized, manufactured sensibilities every time.)

a reply to: vonclod
RCMP is police though correct? Alot, not all...but quite a few of our law enforcement agencies are a part of the good ole boy system. I've yet to see any with fire or ems here. Not saying they aren't there, but our focus isn't on who has the biggest nads. In this county we have 13 volunteer fire agencies and 1 paid fire / ems. Most of our members of our paid department run thr volunteer districts so everyone really knows everyone. I teach the bls con ed for three of them. Many of these women can outrun, lift, and fight me. I'm ex military also but these are some tough women.

a reply to: Domo1

oh wow, thats absurd. Clearly this is a bad choice.

Unless she gets hired to do office work and NEVER leave the firehouse, if not she needs to go. She has no business fighting anything but what her academics prepared her for (since she is, um, lacking the ability to complete the basic training of fighting fires). Things like alphabetical order or date by date sorting of documents. Paper cuts, Stress of managing work and coffee breaks. Ugh, not a person if I dont get that first cup. Ya know..... things like that.

Its a pretty odd word we live in. Making a person a firefighter who is NOT a firefighter?...Its so crazy it might work..

a reply to: Domo1

Politics always outweighs common sense. I think a lot of us know how that works.

This is absolutely insulting. Thanks feminist movement, for weaseling your BS into EVERYTHING

Here's how it should work: Even if it never happens, expect to do all the physical work yourself in the event of a catastrophic team disaster, and having to hold the fort waiting for others to arrive.

Here's what should never happen: worming your way past physical requirements because BOOBIES & GPA, hooray!

Always be at your job's required minimum, and aim for much higher on the scores. Otherwise, WHY ON EARTH should I trust your fitness if you can't even pass the physical? I'm freaking sorry, but this "girls can do/should do everything a man does" horsecrap needs to stop, now. This isn't showing fairness anymore, it's a goddamn liability & I'm not supporting it. Pass the testing, get the job. Fail the test, don't get the job, end of discussion.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
I agree with you. Our paid department actually is pushing hard to recruit more females. But with that said, they leave the tests and requirementd equal for all genders.

On the ambulance we usually run out of a substation. One livingroom / kitchen, one shower, 2 beds. You and your female partner alone for 24 hours. Alot of people are like whatttt? But again we look at each other like family.

a reply to: Domo1

If I needed to be rescued I wouldn't give a crap how well she did academically. I would want her to be able to drag my ass. I would prefer to have someone that got poor marks but could actually perform the job.

I agree, I had the opportunity last year to have my dead ass dragged out of the house and thanks to the skies they actually could carry a dead body! 190 LB'S dead weight is nothing to sneeze at during a blizzard.

This might be considered hearsay because I was not there but this is what I am told happened. I did not need a Nuclear Scientist that day, I needed male hormones and strength. I got my wish as you can tell by my replying to your thread:-)

S&F
Regards, Iwinder

a reply to: LoverBoy

Yes they are the official federal police, not quite like the FBI as they are contracted to all the policing in many cities/communities.
I know some tough women..lol, thanks for the replies
I want to add that I have no problem with women doing these jobs as long as they can do it.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
I think the OP, Ketsuko, and yourself might have misunderstood my original questions. My question is simply, are the tests actually on par with the requirements of real world situations? If they are, then gender shouldn't play a role in selection for the job. However, if they are strictly gender based, because men are traditionally firemen, then those tests need to be re-evaluated to be realistic.

I certainly understand the concern all three of you have, and think it's valid, with the exception of my question.

America seems to be going the way of South Africa, putting unqualified people in important positions simply because they happen to belong the right group. Being a firefighter is an important position and not something to just be handed lightly to people as some sort of award for being a woman whotried really really hard!

If you can't pass the test, you can't pass the test. Nobody, man or woman, should be given special treatment in this manner, especially when it comes to a firefighter who is responsible for other people's lives.

Since when did the feminist agenda change from "I can do anything you can, just give me the chance to prove it" to "Well I know I'm not good enough but I should be given special treatment because I have a vagina"

What a disgrace, my sympathies go out to those who actually used to fight for equal treatment vs special treatment. They passed the torch and the current generation dropped it in a big puddle.

a reply to: Klassified

The tests are in no way focused upon gender. For example the written test is alot of what if scenario questions along with alot of remembering details such as street names. This prepares u for when u test our for driver and have to remember every hydrant location and street name and draw the map out.

The college runs a fire academy where it is similar to a watered down bootcamp with the PT / running. You obtain your FF1 and 2 along with your emt B and other certifications.

The agility test along with written test is given when you are hired on. Most of the time it consist of dragging hoses up the tower with your air pack on etc. The tests truly aren't to break you. They are to ensure you can perform everyday situations.

originally posted by: Enderdog
In my 25+ years as a firefighter, in a mid-sized city, it has been my experience that just about half pull their weight, both physically and metaphorically. Those that do are well respected. Often they also make up for lesser physical strength by working smarter, and not getting themselves and their co-workers into situations they should not be in to begin with.

Those who do not though, are roundly ill-respected, and the source of much trouble on the job. Those tend to be affirmative-action type candidates, and not only do people have to tip-toe around them, to avoid being charged with sexual harassment, by dint of saying something they take as sexist...but, also increase the workload for everyone around them, who has to make up for their deficits. The same amount of work has to be done at most scenes, whether that load is carried by fewer or more people. And at least on largish departments, it is not uncommon the have several working fires a day.

This takes a serious toll on everyone. It's a young person's job. Each person who undertakes it, is trading their health and body for a paycheck. I know very few people who leave the job, not permanently affected to some degree by the wear and tear. This affects the pension fund, as well as several other parameters, that determine how hard everyone has to work, to fill in for injured folks, or slackers or whatever. At any rate, it's a mixed bag.

The women firefighters I respect, are the ones that work to exhaustion without complaint.....just like the guys who do, that I respect. There are plenty of get-over artists among the male ranks too though, who garner little peer respect. We live together for 24 hours at a time. In many ways it is like a family. People fuss and fight. People fill different niches. Toughness is a mental quality. Physical strength does not make a person tough, unless they use it appropriately. I can think of several women I would rather have on the pump panel than almost any man, who has less than twenty years on the job. They study hard and learn their streets and manage the pump with skill....which the guys inside absolutely depend on to do their part of team tasks that take everyone's cooperation and skill.

Firefighting/EMS is its own culture. The traditions that have evolved are there for a reason. Trust is the most important factor when you are expected to risk your life on someone else's decisions and skill. But, there are skills that women bring to the job, especially on the EMS side, that were sorely lacking when it was an all-man thing. Like anything, it is a mixed bag, and continues to evolve.

On the whole, I would say character counts the most. Everything else is secondary. Adapting and overcoming with the actual resources that you have, requires thinking and risk assessment. In both men and women, some have it...and some don't. The people you usually hear complaining about it, are rarely those with character. I'm glad to have had the opportunity to make my living serving people that way. If I had been forced to work in a factory or office, I probably would've blown my brains out at some point. But, I have nothing but respect for the people who do do those kinds of things, that are outside my own skill-sets and tolerances. It takes all kinds of people to make a functional society. And I appreciate anyone who contributes and brings their A-game.

Wonderful post worth repeating!

So, in your experience, do some people, male and female, get hired for their skills, sometimes even if they don't pass the physical exam? Is this the case with other exams as well, some score so highly in one area, that it makes up for what they lack in another?

a reply to: LoverBoy
And that's all I was asking. Thank you.

A firefighter (in my opinion) is one of those jobs where you have to be a bit crazy and somewhat of a hard-ass to be any good at it. It's physically demanding and dangerous at times. The gear is already heavy enough while being hot and stifling, and then you have to handle the hose or be able to drag somebody on top of that.

Even if she's not fit for going in during a rescue, I'm sure they could still find good use for her. Until she can pass the PT requirement, I suspect she'll be getting to know the floor buffer really well, doing laundry, making equipment checks and validating inventory, making or running for lunches, and being a go-fer for the guys in the station that share her duty shift. There's also some lighter EMT or paramedic type work where you don't have to carry somebody, but have to be smart and able to do diagnosing on your feet and such.

In a job like that, I would think they're not going to let her slack. And even if she never gets put on roster for the rescue part due to fitness, they may still keep her around if she makes herself useful. (And no reason why she couldn't be once learning all the ins-and-outs, being on top of things, staying on people to do their job, etc.)

Not a firefighter, but did an enlistment in the military. (Navy even.) I've seen how stuff like that works.

a reply to: WarminIndy
Before my reduction my front assets could definitely knock down doors. I totally missed out on a career!

a reply to: Klassified

That sounds fair-minded to me. Too often this stuff gets embroiled in political cr*p.

originally posted by: Iwinder
a reply to: Domo1

If I needed to be rescued I wouldn't give a crap how well she did academically. I would want her to be able to drag my ass. I would prefer to have someone that got poor marks but could actually perform the job.

I agree, I had the opportunity last year to have my dead ass dragged out of the house and thanks to the skies they actually could carry a dead body! 190 LB'S dead weight is nothing to sneeze at during a blizzard.

This might be considered hearsay because I was not there but this is what I am told happened. I did not need a Nuclear Scientist that day, I needed male hormones and strength. I got my wish as you can tell by my replying to your thread:-)

S&F
Regards, Iwinder

I was there and can attest to the fact that speed, strength and agility was required in a split second. There were 3 EMTs and at least two firefighters, Iwinder and myself in a small kitchen. I was busy giving the account of what happened and all of his meds to the female EMT, and had just enough time to see his heart rate on the AED going haywire. They yelled we can't wait and grabbed him and ran outside to the stretcher. The female EMT was a sturdy girl and I am sure she would have been capable of carrying him no problem, but I'm sure glad that the others were there.

My dad was a fireman and I have total respect for all first responders and know how physically demanding the job is. I would want to know that if it comes down to me and my rescuer, that he or she is more than able to handle the job.
You need to be able perform when the time comes.


On a foot note we have a program in our city called "cool aid" where the paramedics give you a bright orange and blue magnetic folder (much like a big greeting card) that has a form on the inside where you enter all the pertinent data about the person (we each have our own) and they are displayed prominently on the fridge. Name, age, hospitalization number, health history, medications, allergies, etc. The second time they had to respond to the house it was easy to just hand that card over, so more time could be spent on the immediate emergency. Even if you don't have a similar system in your city, make a list of all medications with dosages, and other information noted above. The little time it takes to to prepare this ahead of time can shave vital minutes off of in a emergency situation.

My two cents worth.

Namaste,
YogaGinns

a reply to: windword

In my city, no one gets hired that cannot do the minimum standards as far as qualifiers. However, a person who scores high on the written gets a higher place on the list. And we hire according to list ranking, assuming background checks come back OK and they pass the minimum physical standards. Completing the school though, is another matter. And a few things have been changed to accommodate the desire to have a more diverse workforce. This is just the reality of the 21st century.

More guys than women flunk out of drill school, merely because there are more of them. And it is a complicated skill-set. Not every brain smart person can get that out to their hands in performance. Two guys flunked out of my class in the last week. One was an Air Force firefighter, who was simply incompetent. The other was an electrical engineer, who passed all the daily written tests easily....but, couldn't manage to do the practicals at all. Most practicals are timed exercises, and by the time he went over everything in his mind and started actually performing the skill, the time was just about up. Neither of them would have made good actual firefighters in the real world.

So, the answer to your question....at least on my professional paid department, is yes and no. But, no one gets hired even to go to drill school, without passing the minimum requirements. Those have been adjusted every few years, over time. But, not egregiously so. And not everyone who can do it once is automatically in. They have to learn and demonstrate over a three month schooling period, and another 6 month probationary period.

a reply to: Domo1

I say don't let her join. The same thing I would say about anyone, male, female, black, white, transgendered, or dragonkin.

I agree. They have a standard metric that has been adhered to for whatever reasons. To change the rules because she cried foul or wanted to sneak in or it appears that the Mayor wants to promote some kind of artificial equality balance is just not smart. How will the existing fighters feel about her presence, that she received favourable adjustments to her scores? Would possible resentment lead to reduced efficiency of the unit?

Well carrying heavy duty stuff, I understand. The petite woman as cop is a bad example. It doesn't mean she can't fight or go fast enough to get away. Not everything is about being a muscular strong man. Sometimes you need little people to do the little things, for example going through vents or possible collapsed holes/buildings. That is when you need them the most. Sure those are dangerous jobs, but when it come to rescuing small things like babies, you just have no choice but to send the short ones to do it because the big strong guy wouldn't be able to fit. Small or short people are usually best for scouting or doing spy stuff. They are the least likely to be seen as undercover the most.