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Freddie Gray's Death Ruled a Homicide; 6 Officers Charged!

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posted on May, 2 2015 @ 02:57 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Xcathdra




They are not privy to the autopsy documents are they considering its those documents that determines cause of death.


We don't need autopsy reports to know Grey's condition. He was in the hospital for a week before he died. We have all those hospital records, that were written by several doctors and nurses who diagnosed and tended to him.


ETA: I would imagine an autopsy would reveal that he had an unimaginable amount of drugs in his system, including heroin, (morphine).




What? That does not even make sense. "He died in the hospital so the doc must have murdered him." Please look up correlation vs causation

"We don't need to know what the autopsy says?" This is more of your "I don't care about the facts" philosophy.




posted on May, 2 2015 @ 02:58 PM
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a reply to: butcherguy

Your right because its impossible for a person to cause significant injuries to himself.

* - Man Dies After `Cracking' His Own Neck


long story short its entirely possible for a person to break their own neck.

what else did the autopsy result say?
edit on 2-5-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: NavyDoc

So making crap up that doesn't align with reality is an example of critical thinking?


What "crap" did I make up? I've seem people on narcotics hurt themselves very badly, as any ER doc can share with you.
Did you or did you not see a person under the influence of heroin gouge their own eyes out?


Yes. He was stoned, acting out, and wanting more narcotics. He didn't realize how bad it was because it didn't hurt. What he intended as a dramatic act to get his way turned out badly for him.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: windword

You need an autopsy report to determine, legally, cause of death. That report is whats being used to charge the officers.
try again.


edit on 2-5-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:03 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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a reply to: Greathouse

While answering his question is it possible to suffer the injury to your larynx while receiving a blunt force trauma injury to the top of your head in a lateral position.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:07 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: butcherguy

Your right because its impossible for a person to cause significant injuries to himself.

* - Man Dies After `Cracking' His Own Neck


long story short its entirely possible for a person to break their own neck.

what else did the autopsy result say?

From your link:


. An autopsy showed that Paul gave himself a stroke.

The snap damaged Paul's vertebral artery, one of the main arteries to the brain, said Orange County Deputy Coroner Jackie Berndt. That led to swelling that restricted blood flow and killed off a portion of his cerebellum.


Gray's spinal cord was 80% severed and he had 3 crushed vertebrae. Gray was handcuffed.

Your example gives a man that damaged an artery that supplies blood to the brain. He had the use of his hands when it happened and he did not crush three vertebrae and his larynx. The same injury has been done by chiropractors.... one of the reasons that I will not go to one.

edit on b000000312015-05-02T15:11:02-05:0003America/ChicagoSat, 02 May 2015 15:11:02 -0500300000015 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:09 PM
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a reply to: butcherguy

My examples have shown its possible to sustain life threatening injuries by your own hands, as is possible in what we know about this case.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:11 PM
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originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?


The larynx is protected posteriorly by the cervical spine and laterally by the sternoclidomastiod and other muscles. Obviously an anterior blow is the most likely cause of a laryngeal fracture. However, if there was an axial load to the head, causing around and extreme flexion to the neck, the larynx could be damaged. What the autopsy should show is if the larynx was compressed anterior to posterior (squished like you were squeezing a tube) or superior to inferior (like you were crushing a can.)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:11 PM
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originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?


The larynx is protected posteriorly by the cervical spine and laterally by the sternoclidomastiod and other muscles. Obviously an anterior blow is the most likely cause of a laryngeal fracture. However, if there was an axial load to the head, causing around and extreme flexion to the neck, the larynx could be damaged. What the autopsy should show is if the larynx was compressed anterior to posterior (squished like you were squeezing a tube) or superior to inferior (like you were crushing a can.)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc


But that is possible, especially with a toxicology report that indicates he had drugs in his system. I'm not saying one or another, just suggesting the possibilities

We do agree. It's just that you said the above as if it were a fact

Just amused you're arguing over a leaked report is all :-)

Of course it's possible he was completely S***faced when all this happened - leaked toxicology report or no leaked report

Anything is possible



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:14 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: butcherguy

My examples have shown its possible to sustain life threatening injuries by your own hands, as is possible in what we know about this case.


Apples and oranges dude.
I showed you an example of severed spine in a police van in the same city.
Google 'nickel ride' , you may be surprised at how many broken necks have occurred in those police vans.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:14 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Greathouse

While answering his question is it possible to suffer the injury to your larynx while receiving a blunt force trauma injury to the top of your head in a lateral position.



I would think a ventral decubitus position would be a better description of how he was laying.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: IAMTAT

Thanks!!!! I will read the link to see what is going on, now what is with the latest news talking that the case is getting more complicated by the minute?



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:19 PM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: windword

You need an autopsy report to determine, legally, cause of death. That report is whats being used to charge the officers.
try again.



No, not necessarily. Grey may have died from cardiac arrest. That has nothing to do with the culpability of the perpetrators.


edit on 2-5-2015 by windword because: plural



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:21 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?


The larynx is protected posteriorly by the cervical spine and laterally by the sternoclidomastiod and other muscles. Obviously an anterior blow is the most likely cause of a laryngeal fracture. However, if there was an axial load to the head, causing around and extreme flexion to the neck, the larynx could be damaged. What the autopsy should show is if the larynx was compressed anterior to posterior (squished like you were squeezing a tube) or superior to inferior (like you were crushing a can.)


Superior to inferior was what I was pondering. Could that also hypothetically apply to the spine trama? Just a question I know better than to make a bold statement that is what happened. I repeatedly said that is my theory and I will wait until the medical examiners report comes out. I'm in no way looking for confirmation I would just like to know if there is any validity to my assumption.

Even if the answer is a no I might have changed the subject from the topic of the last two pages.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:23 PM
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originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: NavyDoc


But that is possible, especially with a toxicology report that indicates he had drugs in his system. I'm not saying one or another, just suggesting the possibilities

We do agree. It's just that you said the above as if it were a fact

Just amused you're arguing over a leaked report is all :-)

Of course it's possible he was completely S***faced when all this happened - leaked toxicology report or no leaked report

Anything is possible



I'm not addressing the toxicology report as a fact, I'm just suggesting that, if the report was true, then there is a possible mechanism to explain the issue.

If one reads all of my replies, I've never sided with one side or another, but have stuck with attempting to explain the medical reasons behind all possabilites. The flak I get is from a few people so wrapped up in their ideologies, that any thought or possability contrary to what they believed from the outset is offensive to them. I've been an expert witness several times and I am careful to parse opinion from fact and explain the possabilites.

My opinion, not fact, is that Occam's Razor tells us the cops hurt him. However, in a court of law, one must go with what one can prove, not what one can feel. Too many people, as evidenced by these threads, cannot isolate the emotional from the rational.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: butcherguy

You sound like a TV procecutor when asking NavyDoc about "Did you or did you not see a person under the influence . . .

I don't know why but it does sound funny. . .



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:25 PM
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originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: NavyDoc

Hey Doc you seem to be on the receiving end of a rather hard ride in this thread. But I have a question for you would a compression injury to the spine/larynx. Require more or less force?

My theory leans towards Mr. Gray being laid headfirst on his belly in the back of the van. And the driver gaining speed then slamming on the brakes to propel him forward until he impacts the metal partition in the front of the van with the top of the head or forehead.

What are your thoughts on that?


The larynx is protected posteriorly by the cervical spine and laterally by the sternoclidomastiod and other muscles. Obviously an anterior blow is the most likely cause of a laryngeal fracture. However, if there was an axial load to the head, causing around and extreme flexion to the neck, the larynx could be damaged. What the autopsy should show is if the larynx was compressed anterior to posterior (squished like you were squeezing a tube) or superior to inferior (like you were crushing a can.)


Superior to inferior was what I was pondering. Could that also hypothetically apply to the spine trama? Just a question I know better than to make a bold statement that is what happened. I repeatedly said that is my theory and I will wait until the medical examiners report comes out. I'm in no way looking for confirmation I would just like to know if there is any validity to my assumption.

Even if the answer is a no I might have changed the subject from the topic of the last two pages.

Certainly. Compression, superior to inferior, are the most comment type of vertebral body fractures--like a slinky or an accordion--the vertebrae are crushed from the top down. That could also compress the larynx



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I have to agree also, if Gray was an habitual user and he had a record to confirm, he will have substances in his body, no doubt about it.

I don't see it as a leak but a fact actually.




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