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1st Imam - Kabba - the crack that can not be fixed

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posted on May, 1 2015 @ 01:27 PM
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hmm . you're Iranian ? farsi baladi haji ? khosh oumadi . komaki khasti begoo dar khedmatam


Anyway , i hope you refrain posting such religious threads cause my experience tells me you'll get nothing but cursing to our prophet and muslims in general .

www.abovetopsecret.com...

welcome aboard anyways (i'm new here myself)

EDIT : what am i saying . you've been here since 2012 ? !
edit on 1-5-2015 by haman10 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 1 2015 @ 02:54 PM
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before I say any thing I should thank the people who think that this subject requires more attention and discussion.


 

a reply to: haman10

farsi bil miram. ala ayo hal...vojdanhaye bidar hame ja hastand...

Many western people have just learned to hate Muslims and this is because they have been spoon feeding their minds with western MSM.(I am not saying all western people , so those who think they have a free mind shouldn't be offended)

Although those hating people are mostly uneducated empty proud sheeples.

and what is the best way for treating sheeple ? just ignoring their hatred and smiling at them while they are cursing our beliefs.

Never try to prove them that they are empty , uneducated and proud (these are their weaknesses)

dar panahe hagh. ya ali.
edit on 1-5-2015 by mideast because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 03:00 PM
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originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Sublimecraft

They are just not using the right material for repair!

This will take care of that




thank you sir

you're a genius sir



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 03:19 PM
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a reply to: mideast

If this crack is attributed to the birth of Ali ibn Abi Talib, who was born around 599 ce, what would anything in the current physical structure, other than the black stone have to do with his birth?

It has been rebuilt MANY times since 599ce.





The Kaaba has been repaired and reconstructed many times since Muhammad's day. The structure was severely damaged by fire on 3 Rabi I (Sunday, 31 October 683), during the first siege of Mecca in the war between the Umayyads and Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr, an early Muslim who ruled Mecca for many years between the death of ʿAli and the consolidation of Umayyad power. Ibn al-Zubayr rebuilt it to include the hatīm.[53] He did so on the basis of a tradition (found in several hadith collections[54]) that the hatīm was a remnant of the foundations of the Abrahamic Kaaba, and that Muhammad himself had wished to rebuild so as to include it.

The Kaaba was bombarded with stones in the second siege of Mecca in 692, in which the Umayyad army was led by al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf. The fall of the city and the death of Ibn al-Zubayr allowed the Umayyads under ʿAbdu l-Malik ibn Marwan to finally reunite all the Islamic possessions and end the long civil war. In 693 AD, ʿAbdu l-Malik had the remnants of al-Zubayr's Kaaba razed, and rebuilt on the foundations set by the Quraysh.[55] The Kaaba returned to the cube shape it had taken during Muhammad's time.

During the Hajj of 930 AD, the Qarmatians attacked Mecca, defiled the Zamzam Well with the bodies of pilgrims and stole the Black Stone, taking it to the oasis region of Eastern Arabia known as al-Aḥsāʾ, where it remained until the Abbasids ransomed it in 952 AD. The basic shape and structure of the Kaaba have not changed since then.[56]

After heavy rains and flooding in 1629, the walls of the Kaaba collapsed and the Masjid was damaged. The same year, during the reign of Murad IV, the Kaaba was rebuilt with granite stones from Mecca and the Masjid was renovated.[57] The Kaaba's appearance has not changed since then.

SOURCE

The only thing remaining of the building that Ali ibn Abi Talib was supposedly born in is the black stone.
edit on 5 1 2015 by stosh64 because: Forgot source link



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: stosh64

Kaaba has been rebuilt several times before Saudis , and the miracle is that even after rebuilding Kaaba by many dominions T the crack is still on it's place.

Maybe the crack is not the original crack , but it is in the place it should be. and it can not be hidden.



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: mideast

Thanks for your reply.

Do you have a link to the first reference of the crack, either in the Quran or Hadiths?

Since the tale of the miraculous birth, and crack, occurred 11 years before the first revelation to Mohammed, There should be some reference to it in your Holy books.

I have tried, and failed, to find early references to this remarkable event.

I believe also, since so many of the Islamic faith have died over this, Shia killing Sunni and vice versa, that there would be early references to this event.

Thank you in advance.



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: infolurker

Now that's funny right there. I don't care who you are!

Good one!



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 05:52 PM
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a reply to: mideast

More Shia Bid'ah bid'ah bid'ah !!!!!!



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: stosh64
a reply to: mideast

If this crack is attributed to the birth of Ali ibn Abi Talib, who was born around 599 ce, what would anything in the current physical structure, other than the black stone have to do with his birth?

It has been rebuilt MANY times since 599ce.





The Kaaba has been repaired and reconstructed many times since Muhammad's day. The structure was severely damaged by fire on 3 Rabi I (Sunday, 31 October 683), during the first siege of Mecca in the war between the Umayyads and Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr, an early Muslim who ruled Mecca for many years between the death of ʿAli and the consolidation of Umayyad power. Ibn al-Zubayr rebuilt it to include the hatīm.[53] He did so on the basis of a tradition (found in several hadith collections[54]) that the hatīm was a remnant of the foundations of the Abrahamic Kaaba, and that Muhammad himself had wished to rebuild so as to include it.

The Kaaba was bombarded with stones in the second siege of Mecca in 692, in which the Umayyad army was led by al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf. The fall of the city and the death of Ibn al-Zubayr allowed the Umayyads under ʿAbdu l-Malik ibn Marwan to finally reunite all the Islamic possessions and end the long civil war. In 693 AD, ʿAbdu l-Malik had the remnants of al-Zubayr's Kaaba razed, and rebuilt on the foundations set by the Quraysh.[55] The Kaaba returned to the cube shape it had taken during Muhammad's time.

During the Hajj of 930 AD, the Qarmatians attacked Mecca, defiled the Zamzam Well with the bodies of pilgrims and stole the Black Stone, taking it to the oasis region of Eastern Arabia known as al-Aḥsāʾ, where it remained until the Abbasids ransomed it in 952 AD. The basic shape and structure of the Kaaba have not changed since then.[56]

After heavy rains and flooding in 1629, the walls of the Kaaba collapsed and the Masjid was damaged. The same year, during the reign of Murad IV, the Kaaba was rebuilt with granite stones from Mecca and the Masjid was renovated.[57] The Kaaba's appearance has not changed since then.

SOURCE

The only thing remaining of the building that Ali ibn Abi Talib was supposedly born in is the black stone.



This is just another Shia fabrication to try and prove something that is false this is what we call bid'ah in Islam meaning Innovation. The problem with the Shia is they put their "imams " above Allah (god) this is called Shirk .



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 06:13 PM
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a reply to: stosh64

Sunni sources consider the evidence of Ali(ra) birth in the Kaaba weak and fabricated due to the chain of narrations and rather acknowledge that Hakim ibn Hizam ibn Khuwaylid ibn `Abd al-`Uzza ibn Qusay al-Qurashi was born in the Kaaba. Shias attribute this property to Ali(ra)to elevate his status, using weak and fabricated hadiths. Interestingly, Sunnis use their Sahih books to establish that Hakim was the one born in the Kaaba, while the Shias regard not just the hadith but, the Sahih books in their entirety as fallible and filled with weak and fabricated hadith. In fact, Shias believe the Kaaba only served as a sign for the superiority of Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib for the people. Meaning the Kaaba being a birthplace did not in itself actually elevate him who is signified as the vicegerent of the Holy Prophet in many instances, one of which is Ghadir e Khumm. This event is celebrated as Eid al-Ghadeer.
edit on 1-5-2015 by Kapusta because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 02:07 AM
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Is that where the floating rock is?



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 02:51 AM
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Interesting. I've never heard of this before. I did a little bit more searching on it, and that 'crack' appears to be quite large. Five or six feet tall, I'd estimate.

No offense or disrespect to anyone's religious beliefs, but I guarantee that if given adequate time and materials, I could repair that. I'd guess that the reason it keeps breaking open again, is because it's never been properly repaired. It seems like it's just been patched with plaster and mortar and whatnot. Given the climate and the countless people touching it (one video I saw had person after person going up to, almost like the Black Stone), it's no wonder the repairs don't last long.

One would have to remove most of that corner to do It, but if the blocks were actually replaced, rather than patched, I can just about guarantee that the repair would be permanent.

Anyhoo, it's an interesting topic, and one I had never even heard of, so thanks for bringing it up!



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 04:02 AM
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a reply to: Kapusta

The cure of ignorance is investigation and studying , not making stories about other beliefs.



Shias believe the Kaaba only served as a sign for the superiority of Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib for the people


Where did you get that?

Let me shed a little light, Shia believes that Kaba is at the same place where beytol mamur was built , Kaba is the first place which appeared after Noah's flood , Kaba is ...

These two sentences are enough to prove you are taking side in this matter and you are not well informed about shia beliefs.

Good luck next time.

 


These are approved sunni sources called sahih explaining about Imam ali a.s. :

Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5913:

Amir b Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reporte (l on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger pbuh addressing 'Ali said: You are in the same position with relation to me as Aaron- (Harun) was in relation to Moses but with (this explicit difference) that there is no prophet after me.



Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5916:

Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle pbuh as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses?



what Aaron was to Moses>>

Holy Quran:

[20:29] And give to me an aider from my family:[20:30] Aaron, my brother,[20:31] Strengthen my back by him,[20:32] And associate him (with me) in my affair,[20:33] So that we should glorify Thee much,


Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5917:

Suhail reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that Allah's Messenger pbuh said on the Day of Khaibar: I shall certainly give this standard in the hand of one who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah will grant victory at his hand. Umar b. Khattab said: Never did I cherish for leadership but on that day. I came before him with the hope that I may be called for this, but Allah's Messenger pbuh called 'Ali b. Abu Talib and he conferred (this honour) upon him and said: Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory, and 'Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people? Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and when they do that then their blood and their riches are inviolable from your hands but what is justified by law and their reckoning is with Allah



Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5915:

This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father ,,,,,. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. ,,,,



Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0141:

Zirr reported: 'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle pbuh gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me

 


Views of Allama Ibne Abil Hadid al-Mutazali about Imam Ali (A.S.)



Allama Ibne abil Hadid al-Mutazali, the commentator of Nahjul Balagha, says: “Hazrat Ali had a personality in which opposite characteristics had so gathered that it was difficult to believe that a human mind could manifest such a combination. He was the bravest man that history could cite, such brave persons are always hardhearted, cruel, and eager for blood-shed, but Ali was a kind hearted sympathetic and warm hearted person, qualities quite contradictory to the other phase of his character and more suited to pious and God fearing persons.”
“He was a very pious and God fearing man and often such religious persons avoid society and do not care to mix with men of sin and men of wrath on the other hand warriors, kings and dictators are usually arrogant and haughty; they consider it below their dignity to mix with the poor, lowly and humble people. But Ali was different. He was a friend to all. As a matter of fact he had a tender spot in his heart for the poor and humble, and for orphans and cripples. To them he always was a kind friend, a sympathetic guide and a fellow sufferer; he was meek with them but haughty and arrogant towards famous warriors and generals, so many of whom he had killed in hand-to-hand combats. He was always kind but strict with wayward persons, sympathetically teaching them the ways of God. He always smiled and passed happy and witty rejoinders, it was difficult to overcome him in debates or repartees; his rejoinders and retorts always bore a distinct mark of culture, education and knowledge.”
“He was a scion of a very illustrious, rich and noble clan, as well as the son-in-law and a great favorite of the Holy Prophet (A.S.); at the same time he was the greatest warrior and marshal of his time; yet, in spite of his riches, he ate, dressed and lived like a poor person; to him wealth was for the use of other needy persons, not for himself and his family. Change of times and change of circumstances did not bring any change in his bearing, mien or character. Even when he was acclaimed as the Caliph, he was the same Au as they had found him to be during the previous regimes.”
“Once in the society of Abdullah, son of Imam Malik-ibne-Hunbal, a discussion took place about Ali and his Caliphate; Abdullah brought the discussion to an end saying that the Caliphate did not bring any honor or glory to Ali, but it was itself honored and glorified by Ali and it received the status actually due to it.”
“The world cannot quote an example other than that of Ali of a first class warrior and a marshal who is also a philosopher, a moralist and a great teacher of religious principles and theology. A study of his life shows that his sword was the only help that Islam received during its early days of struggle in its wars of self-defence. For Islam he was the first and the last line of defence; who was there to stand by him in the battles of Badar, Ohad, Khandaq, Khyber and Hunain? This is one aspect of his life. While the other facet of his character is reflected in his sermons, orders, letters and sayings. What high values of morality they teach, what ethics’ they preach, what intricate problems of Unitarianism they elucidate, how rich they are in philosophy; how they imbibe the spirit of righteousness and teach rulers to become kind, good, benevolent and God-fearing rulers, and subjects to be faithful, sincere and law abiding, how they persuade men to be warriors who can fight only for God, truth and justice, and not mercenaries murdering and plundering for wealth and riches; and how they instruct teachers to teach nothing injurious and harmful to mankind. These are but undisputable proofs of his great-ness and spiritual superiority. Has history ever produced a more splendid personality incorporating such variegated characteristics of mind and heart?”
edit on 2-5-2015 by mideast because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-5-2015 by mideast because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 04:05 AM
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a reply to: AdmireTheDistance




countless people touching it


youre kidding, right?

what do you mean touching it?

So , you said you could repair it. but if you think that touching is the problem , that means you won't be able to repair it because no one is going to stop touching Kaba.




One would have to remove most of that corner to do It, but if the blocks were actually replaced, rather than patched, I can just about guarantee that the repair would be permanent.


Maybe you could destroy it all and rebuild it like it has been rebuilt.


anyway thanks for posting.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 04:22 AM
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a reply to: stosh64

شيخ مفيد رضوان الله تعالي عليه :

ولد بمكة في البيت الحرام يوم الجمعة الثالث عشر من رجب سنة ثلاثين من عام الفيل ، ولم يولد قبله ولا بعده مولود في بيت الله تعالى سواه إكراما من الله تعالى له بذلك وإجلالا لمحله في التعظيم

sheykh mufid is a great source of shai hadith

and these are sunni sources of hadith:


more :

1 . حاكم نيشابوري (405هـ) :

فقد تواترت الأخبار أن فاطمة بنت أسد ولدت أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب كرم الله وجهه في جوف الكعبة .
.

النيسابوري ، محمد بن عبدالله أبو عبدالله الحاكم (متوفاي405 هـ) ، المستدرك على الصحيحين ، ج 3 ، ص 550 ، تحقيق : مصطفى عبد القادر عطا ، ناشر : دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت ، الطبعة : الأولى ، 1411هـ - 1990م .
ترجمه حاكم نيشابوري :

الحاكم الحافظ الكبير امام المحدثين ... ناظر الدارقطني فرضيه وهو ثقة واسع العلم بلغت تصانيفه قريبا من خمس مائة جزء .
.

الذهبي ، شمس الدين محمد بن أحمد بن عثمان ، تذكرة الحفاظ ، ج 3 ، ص 1039 ـ 1040 ، ناشر : دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت ، الأولى .

سيوطي :

الحاكم الحافظ الكبير إمام المحدثين أبو عبد الله محمد بن عبد الله محمد بن حمدويه بن نعيم الضبي الطهماني النيسابوري ... وكان إمام عصره في الحديث العارف به حق معرفته صالحا ثقة .

حاكم ، حافظ بزرگ و پيشواي محدثان است ... او در زمان خود پيشواي علم حديث و آن چنان كه شايسته بود‌ ، با علم حديث آشنائي داشت ، درستكار و قابل اعتماد بود .

السيوطي ، جلال الدين عبد الرحمن بن أبي بكر (متوفاي911هـ) ، طبقات الحفاظ ، ج 1 ، ص410 ـ 411 ، ناشر : دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت ، الطبعة : الأولى ، 1403هـ .

أبو اسحاق شيرازي :

هو أبو عبد الله محمد بن عبد الله بن محمد النيسابوري المعروف بالحاكم صاحب المستدرك وتاريخ نيسابور وفضائل الشافعي وكان فقيها حافظا ثقة عليا لكنه يفضل علي بن أبي طالب على عثمان رضي الله عنهما انتهت إليه رياسة أهل الحديث طلب العلم في صغره ورحل إلى الحجاز والعراق مرتين وروي عن خلائق عظيمة قال الأسنوي ويزيد على الفيء شيخ وتفقه علي أبي الوليد النيسابوري وأبي علي بن أبي هريرة وأبي سهل الصعلوكي وانتفع به أئمة كثيرون منهم البيهقي قال عبد الغافر كان الحاكم إمام أهل الحديث في عصره وبيته بيت الصلاح والورع واختص بصحبته إمام وقته أبي بكر الصيغي وكان يراجع الحاكم في الجرح والتعديل .
.

الشيرازي ، إبراهيم بن علي بن يوسف أبو إسحاق (متوفاي476هـ) ، طبقات الفقهاء ، ج 1 ، ص 222 ، تحقيق : خليل الميس ، ناشر : دار القلم - بيروت .

ابن خلكان :

الحاكم النيسابوري الحافظ المعروف بابن البيع إمام أهل الحديث في عصره والمؤلف فيه الكتب التي لم يسبق إلى مثلها كان عالما عارفا واسع العلم .


إبن خلكان ، أبو العباس شمس الدين أحمد بن محمد بن أبي بكر (متوفاي681هـ) ، وفيات الأعيان وأنباء أبناء الزمان ، ج 4 ، ص 280 ، تحقيق : احسان عباس ، ناشر : دار الثقافة - لبنان .

أبو الفداء :

وفيها توفي الحافظ محمد بن عبد الله بن محمد بن حمدويه بن نعيم الضبي الطهماني، المعروف بالحاكم النيسابوري إِمام أهل الحديث في عصره ، والمؤلف فيه الكتب التي لم يسبق إِلى مثلها ، سافر في طلب الحديث، وبلغت عدة شيوخه نحو ألفين، وصنف عدة مصنفات ... .


أبو الفداء عماد الدين إسماعيل بن علي (متوفاي732هـ) ، المختصر في أخبار البشر ، ج 1 ، ص 247 .


دهلوي ، شاه ولى الله مشهور به محدث هند (متوفاي 1180هـ) ، إزالة الخفاء عن خلافة الخلفاء ، ج 4 ، باب : اما مآثر اميرالمؤمنين وامام اشجعين اسد الله الغالب علي بن ابي طالب رضي الله عنه ، تصحيح و مراجعه: سيد جمال الدين هروى .
ترجمه دهلوي :

وقد بسط الكلام فيما يتعلق بالخلافة الذي لا مزيد عليه الشيخ الأجل المحدث ولي الله الدهلوي في إزالة الخفاء عن خلافة الخلفاء وهو كتاب لم يؤلف مثله في هذا الباب .


العظيم آبادي ، محمد شمس الحق (متوفاي1329هـ) ، عون المعبود شرح سنن أبي داود ، ج 12 ، ص 253 ، ناشر : دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت ، الطبعة : الثانية ، 1995م .



قال الإمام العارف الكبير الشيخ أحمد المعروف بشاه ولي الله الدهلوي قدس الله سره في كتابه «حجة الله البالغة»

قال الإمام العلامة ولي الله الدهلوي في «الحجة البالغة» .

القاسمي ، محمد جمال الدين (متوفاي1332هـ) ، قواعد التحديث من فنون مصطلح الحديث ، ج 1 ، ص 239 و ج 1 ص 323 ، ناشر : دار الكتب العلمية - بيروت ، الطبعة : الأولى ، 1399هـ - 1979م .

الكوكب الديار الهندية الشاه ولي الله أحمد بن عبد الرحيم الدهلوي الهندي رحمة الله المولود سنة 1110 والمتوفى بدهلي سنة 1176 كان هذا الرجل من أفراد المتأخرين علما وعملا وشهرة أحيا الله به وبأولاده وأولاد بنته وتلاميذهم الحديث والسنة بالهند بعد مواتهما وعلى كتبه وأسانيده المدار في تلك الديار .


الكتاني ، عبد الحي بن عبد الكبير (متوفاي1383هـ) ، فهرس الفهارس والأثبات ومعجم المعاجم والمسلسلات ، ج 1 ، ص 178 ، تحقيق : د. إحسان عباس ، ناشر : دار العربي الاسلامي - بيروت/ لبنان ، الطبعة : الثانية ، 1402هـ1982م .
3 . سبط ابن جوزي(متوفاي 654هـ) :

وروي أن فاطمة بنت أسد كانت تطوف بالبيت وهي حامل بعلي (ع) فضربها الطلق ففتح لها باب الكعبة فدخلت فوضتعه فيها .
.

سبط بن الجوزي الحنفي ، شمس الدين أبوالمظفر يوسف بن فرغلي بن عبد الله البغدادي ، تذكرة الخواص ، ص 20 ، ناشر : مؤسسة أهل البيت ـ بيروت ، 1401هـ ـ 1981م .
ترجمه سبط بن جوزي :

شمس الدين ذهبي در باره او مي‌گويد:

يوسف بن قُزْغْلي بن عبد الله . الإمام ، الواعظ ،



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 04:33 AM
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a reply to: mideast
Of course people aren't going to stop touching it. Only a fool would think otherwise lol.

I don't know what sort of materials have been used to repair it, but in all the pictures I was able to find of it, it's clear that the large broken and damaged stone blocks have been patched, not replaced. That's not surprising, considering the nature of the site, and the fact that replacing them would require rebuilding that entire corner, and would be a pretty major structural overhaul.

In the pictures, it appears as if the repairs were done with some sort of mortar, or something similar. Obviously, any sort of concrete or mortar or what have you would not be nearly as strong or resilient as undamaged stone blocks would. Any such material, exposed to the heat and the weather is going to deteriorate rather quickly, and a steady stream of countless people touching it would certainly hasten that deterioration. Anyone who's ever worked construction or studied materials science would agree.
edit on 5/2/2015 by AdmireTheDistance because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 04:56 AM
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a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

If you look good in the internet, you will find that they have tried many times to repair the crack with different materials.

remember that kaba is not always crowded place. there are certain times that many people go to visit from all over the world
edit on 2-5-2015 by mideast because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 04:59 AM
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a reply to: mideast

Perhaps they have. I haven't had time to dig into the subject too deep, and have just been going off the information and the photos I've seen thus far.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 05:20 AM
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I've built quite a few houses in my time so I am familiar with settlement and foundation cracking.

Could continuous cracking be attributed to unstable foundations?

I cannot find any reference to a full geo-technical survey being conducted in the recent past, there could be a deep layer of "incompressible" sediment that simply cannot withstand the weight in that area of the building where the cracking continuously occurs - and it could be as far down as 10+ meters.

I'm gonna do the Sherlock thing here and need to rule out all possibilities before I hang my hat on what remains.

Looking forward to feedback.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 06:27 AM
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a reply to: Sublimecraft

I do believe that all the miracles have scientific ways , and I believe that not always scientists can crack the code.

thanks for replying



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