Freddie Gray sustained head injury that matches bolt in back of police van - Law enforcement states

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Well, if he was stood up and maybe bent over, because the paddy wagons arn't that high, the sudden stopping would have sent him like a bullet against the back door with his own body weight breaking his neck on impact.

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: andy1972
Did this occur before or after he was shackled?

He would have difficulty standing if he was shackled in a fashion that prevented him from kicking (the Cops whole reason for shackling him).

Even with your legs cuffed together you can stand up, not run, not kick, but stand up yes.

Properly shackling a detainee to prevent them from kicking involves hog tying them with the feet pulled up to the waist behind them and fastened to the cuffed hands.
I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Here you go:
The Atlantic

Instead, it was a grave injury to his spinal cord. Gray's family said he was treated for three fractured vertebrae and a crushed voice box, the sorts of injuries that doctors say are usually caused by serious car accidents. The van made at least two stops before reaching the police station, but there's no footage to say what happened during the journey or at those stops.

Thanks! So I can see a fall, as reported in the story linked above, causing three fractured vertebrae, but if the voice box was actually crushed, I am not sure how that would happen. Crushed vertebrae would be a different story, but fractured can be caused by a fall, even a very short fall.

originally posted by: andy1972
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Well, if he was stood up and maybe bent over, because the paddy wagons arn't that high, the sudden stopping would have sent him like a bullet against the back door with his own body weight breaking his neck on impact.

Would have to have been sudden acceleration to hit the back door, that or just acceleration in general if he was standing.

There will be police firings, and some probably charged...but no convictions will come of it IMO.

People here in Bmore will riot this weekend but nothing on the scale of last Monday or the Friday before. The army is everywhere and police aren't giving anyone "space to destroy" anymore...plus the leaders, parents and good people of the city are keeping most of the opportunistic morons in check and refocusing the angry/fed up citizens who truly want to see some change to do so in lawful ways.

What's left is a few hundred legitimately furious people who will fight in the streets mixed with some "world burners" out there creating havoc just for fun.

originally posted by: butcherguy

I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

If you can kick with both legs while your legs are cuffed together, well done, you are without doubt a shaolin master.


If not shaolin...CHUCK NORRIS, IS THAT YOU ????

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: andy1972
Did this occur before or after he was shackled?

He would have difficulty standing if he was shackled in a fashion that prevented him from kicking (the Cops whole reason for shackling him).

Even with your legs cuffed together you can stand up, not run, not kick, but stand up yes.

Properly shackling a detainee to prevent them from kicking involves hog tying them with the feet pulled up to the waist behind them and fastened to the cuffed hands.
I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

Not unless there is some report that he was "hogtied". Typically shackling consists of what is pictured below, and often with hand behind the back. This would allow him to stand, but not kick around as the chain is connected to the hand so you can't get full extension....keeps you bent over.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: andy1972
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Well, if he was stood up and maybe bent over, because the paddy wagons arn't that high, the sudden stopping would have sent him like a bullet against the back door with his own body weight breaking his neck on impact.

Would have to have been sudden acceleration to hit the back door, that or just acceleration in general if he was standing.

It's feasible, a 60 kilo man impacting with the door would be a 120 kilo impact at speed, and if he was bent over because of the leg cuffs, the impact would be the base of the skull, or the skull.

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: andy1972
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Well, if he was stood up and maybe bent over, because the paddy wagons arn't that high, the sudden stopping would have sent him like a bullet against the back door with his own body weight breaking his neck on impact.

Would have to have been sudden acceleration to hit the back door, that or just acceleration in general if he was standing.

It's feasible, a 60 kilo man impacting with the door would be a 120 kilo impact at speed, and if he was bent over because of the leg cuffs, the impact would be the base of the skull, or the skull.

Yep. I have heard enough stories from my father about injuries like fractured vertebrae from his surgeries to know it can happen like that....he worked mostly on football players and motocross riders, but had many trampoline accidents as well....people who had compression fractures to one or more vertebrae from impacts similar to what this scenario would have caused. This is the very reason I was never allowed to ride a motorcycle, jump on trampolines or play football when I was younger.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: andy1972
Did this occur before or after he was shackled?

He would have difficulty standing if he was shackled in a fashion that prevented him from kicking (the Cops whole reason for shackling him).

Even with your legs cuffed together you can stand up, not run, not kick, but stand up yes.

Properly shackling a detainee to prevent them from kicking involves hog tying them with the feet pulled up to the waist behind them and fastened to the cuffed hands.
I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

Not unless there is some report that he was "hogtied". Typically shackling consists of what is pictured below, and often with hand behind the back. This would allow him to stand, but not kick around as the chain is connected to the hand so you can't get full extension....keeps you bent over.

It all means nothing anyway.
The cops put a restrained man in a van without securing him in place. They violated their own policy when the neglected to secure him. If he fell from a standing position in the van, then their neglect caused his death.

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy

I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

If you can kick with both legs while your legs are cuffed together, well done, you are without doubt a shaolin master.


If not shaolin...CHUCK NORRIS, IS THAT YOU ????

Stop being disingenuous, please.
I am speaking of a man that is lying in the back of a paddy wagon.... not a person that is standing and attempting to kick someone.

You see, grasshopper.... it doesn't take an effing Shaolin master to kick with both feet when in a lying position.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy

I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

If you can kick with both legs while your legs are cuffed together, well done, you are without doubt a shaolin master.


If not shaolin...CHUCK NORRIS, IS THAT YOU ????

Stop being disingenuous, please.
I am speaking of a man that is lying in the back of a paddy wagon.... not a person that is standing and attempting to kick someone.

You see, grasshopper.... it doesn't take an effing Shaolin master to kick with both feet when in a lying position.

It does when your freakin' feet are tied by a short chain to your hands....think about it..

Have you not seen the photo above ???

The only thing you'd achieve is you'd rip your arms out of their sockets.

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy

I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

If you can kick with both legs while your legs are cuffed together, well done, you are without doubt a shaolin master.


If not shaolin...CHUCK NORRIS, IS THAT YOU ????

Stop being disingenuous, please.
I am speaking of a man that is lying in the back of a paddy wagon.... not a person that is standing and attempting to kick someone.

You see, grasshopper.... it doesn't take an effing Shaolin master to kick with both feet when in a lying position.

It does when your freakin' feet are tied by a short chain to your hands....think about it..

Have you not seen the photo above ???

The only thing you'd achieve is ripping your arms out of their sockets.

Do you have any link showing that is how Freddie Gray was secured?

Hmmmm???

Plus... the original words that you used was legs cuffed together.... You didn't say shackled. Or don't you remember?

Anyway, a lying down kick can still be achieved with a chain to the cuffs like shown above. One just has to be coordinated enough to move the arms downward at the same time as the legs are kicking.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: andy1972
Did this occur before or after he was shackled?

He would have difficulty standing if he was shackled in a fashion that prevented him from kicking (the Cops whole reason for shackling him).

Even with your legs cuffed together you can stand up, not run, not kick, but stand up yes.

Properly shackling a detainee to prevent them from kicking involves hog tying them with the feet pulled up to the waist behind them and fastened to the cuffed hands.
I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

Not unless there is some report that he was "hogtied". Typically shackling consists of what is pictured below, and often with hand behind the back. This would allow him to stand, but not kick around as the chain is connected to the hand so you can't get full extension....keeps you bent over.

It all means nothing anyway.
The cops put a restrained man in a van without securing him in place. They violated their own policy when the neglected to secure him. If he fell from a standing position in the van, then their neglect caused his death.

I haven't seen anything from a policy book that states it is policy to buckle them in though. From what I have read, even accreditation for a van such as this does not require the prisoner to be buckled in. If it is a department policy then that is BPD's own policy from what I have been able to find.

I don't think, unless it was departmental policy, they are required to buckle a prisoner in. I have read numerous police forums on this subject in the last few days and none of them have said it is required, though some PD's have a policy for it but don't enforce it as it poses a threat to the officer having to lean over the criminal to buckle them in, and puts them in a confined space with the prisoner.

Vans are typically only called on for unruly criminals from what I read. Have there been any reports as to why a van was called, rather than a cruiser?

Would be sad if there was a regulation for prisoners being buckled into vans when there is no such regulation for our kids on school buses.....

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: andy1972
Did this occur before or after he was shackled?

He would have difficulty standing if he was shackled in a fashion that prevented him from kicking (the Cops whole reason for shackling him).

Even with your legs cuffed together you can stand up, not run, not kick, but stand up yes.

Properly shackling a detainee to prevent them from kicking involves hog tying them with the feet pulled up to the waist behind them and fastened to the cuffed hands.
I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

Not unless there is some report that he was "hogtied". Typically shackling consists of what is pictured below, and often with hand behind the back. This would allow him to stand, but not kick around as the chain is connected to the hand so you can't get full extension....keeps you bent over.

It all means nothing anyway.
The cops put a restrained man in a van without securing him in place. They violated their own policy when the neglected to secure him. If he fell from a standing position in the van, then their neglect caused his death.

I haven't seen anything from a policy book that states it is policy to buckle them in though. From what I have read, even accreditation for a van such as this does not require the prisoner to be buckled in. If it is a department policy then that is BPD's own policy from what I have been able to find.

I don't think, unless it was departmental policy, they are required to buckle a prisoner in. I have read numerous police forums on this subject in the last few days and none of them have said it is required, though some PD's have a policy for it but don't enforce it as it poses a threat to the officer having to lean over the criminal to buckle them in, and puts them in a confined space with the prisoner.

Vans are typically only called on for unruly criminals from what I read. Have there been any reports as to why a van was called, rather than a cruiser?

Would be sad if there was a regulation for prisoners being buckled into vans when there is no such regulation for our kids on school buses.....

Read the whole article if you have time:

Freddie Gray did not get timely medical care after he was arrested and was not buckled into a seat belt while being transported in a police van, Baltimore police said Friday. Police Commissioner Anthony Batts told reporters there are no excuses for the fact that Gray was not buckled in as he was transported to a police station.

gantdaily.com

Officer Lisa Riha, Board Secretary to the Baltimore City FOP Lodge 3, joined Maryland's News Now Bryan Nehman to outline what rights officers have in cases like Freddie Gray. She said an officer has the same Constitutional right as any other citizen in whether to give a statement in a case. Riha also said that there is a policy that prisoners being transported in vans should be restrained by seatbelts just like in a patrol car.

wbal-tv

It is police policy that all arrestees must be buckled in during transport. The policy, updated just nine days before Freddie Gray was injured, states "all passengers, regardless of age and location, shall be restrained by seat belts or other authorized restraining devices."

here is why...

People in Baltimore and other cities accuse police of sometimes giving prisoners an extra-rough "nickel ride" — a reference to amusement rides that once cost a nickel. Now, the safety of people in Baltimore's police vans is under scrutiny because of a past death and a new fatal injury, one that came after police failed to put a seat belt on a passenger. One of those, Dondi Johnson, died of a fractured spine in 2005 two weeks after he was arrested for urinating in a public street and transported by van. Johnson's family won a $7.4 million judgment that was reduced to $200,000, the legal cap for such cases. Family lawyer Kerry D. Staton said Johnson was seated alone in the van with his hands cuffed behind him and no seat belt to restrain him.

Foxnews.com

You see that, right? A fractured spine that caused a death, caused by a police van ride and not being buckled in caused the new policy... the policy that was ignored.

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: andy1972

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: andy1972
Did this occur before or after he was shackled?

He would have difficulty standing if he was shackled in a fashion that prevented him from kicking (the Cops whole reason for shackling him).

Even with your legs cuffed together you can stand up, not run, not kick, but stand up yes.

Properly shackling a detainee to prevent them from kicking involves hog tying them with the feet pulled up to the waist behind them and fastened to the cuffed hands.
I can kick with both legs when the are cuffed together. So can you. I am pretty sure that you are aware of that.... aren't you?

Not unless there is some report that he was "hogtied". Typically shackling consists of what is pictured below, and often with hand behind the back. This would allow him to stand, but not kick around as the chain is connected to the hand so you can't get full extension....keeps you bent over.

It all means nothing anyway.
The cops put a restrained man in a van without securing him in place. They violated their own policy when the neglected to secure him. If he fell from a standing position in the van, then their neglect caused his death.

A man with prior injury perhaps and surgeries?

That right there is WHY all cops should be VERY careful in restraining people. You never know what problems they have.

This right here is one of the biggest mistakes they make, how many people have died or seen as acting differently due to some medical condition? Too many.

It is pure unprofessionalism.

a reply to: Generation9
The issue here should not be if he was on third his third strike or not, the issue is the time from which he was picked up, to the point where he was sent to the hospital, and what happened in between including in the van. That is the issue there. He was in custody when his injuries happened, he was handcuffed. So his health and well being would have been in the hands of those who put him there.

a reply to: butcherguy

Interesting. I also found another article that states this:

It is police policy that all arrestees must be buckled in during transport. The policy, updated just nine days before Freddie Gray was injured, states "all passengers, regardless of age and location, shall be restrained by seat belts or other authorized restraining devices."

Source

And the other resources I have read do not state whether there is a definitive difference between restrained meaning a seatbelt or restrained meaning handcuffed/shackled.

Nine days before was when the update went through....my guess is that this will be challenged and the meaning very scrutinized if it is determined that the cause was from not being seatbelted as they do not seem to specifically state that restrained means a seatbelt....it simply says either/or must be used.

Apparently Batts went on to say:

"Much like any other vehicle, you seatbelt people in and it's our responsibility to make sure people are safely transported," Batts said, "especially if their hands are behind their back."

Which would suggest his interpretation of the new policy was restrain meant seatbelt.

Would love to take a look at the Pre-incident policy page....I say pre-incident because it may have been changed since then to reflect something different because of this case.

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: Vasa Croe

No matter what the result is nationwide riots,protests and craziness will result if these cops aren't shown to the public in handcuffs. Get ready because these cops aren't getting indicted

ACTUALLY the prosecutor is currently indicting them live on TV as we speak. ALl of the officers involved in the transport is being prosecuted.

What gets me is the charge of FALSE IMPRISONMENT. SO you can run from a cop and not get arrested. isnt that eluding and evading? The Knife he had was NOT illegal though. Smells like a sacrifice to the NAACP and Bostons rioters.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Which would suggest his interpretation of the new policy was restrain meant seatbelt.

Yes, the cop 'boss' interprets it that way and said that there was no excuse for Gray o not being belted in.

Plus, they have a history of killing and injuring people in van rides.