Beyond The Myopic Mirror: The Story of our Karmic Consciousness

In Hindu tradition, Atman is the self, unencumbered by ego. Brahman is the entire external world. It is said that Atman is Brahman, or rather, one is all and all is one. The interior is the same as the exterior. Undeniably Romantic. But, Is it true? Let's take a closer look.

Many people are fed-up with the greedy overlords who malignantly reap profit at the expense of the livelihood of the population. Look throughout this forum and there are plenty of people who are completely aware of the greed that runs our societal cogs. But, what if "they", are "us"? We hate the greedy overlords who act like a cancer on our planet, yet we are blind to our own greedy ways. This is like someone who puts a "stop the fracking" bumper sticker on their combustion-driven automobile. We are pointing out the problem, but we ourselves are fueling the problem with our own indulgence. Sure we can put all the shame we want on the "evil" oil mega-corporations, but they would be powerless if we the consumer did not use their products:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence." (Mthw 23:25)

We are so quick to point out the faults in others, but we do not realize that the external world is simply a reflection of our internal state (Atman IS Brahman). For the next couple weeks, examine the faults you see in others and truly evaluate your self based on these observations. Do you do the same detestable things that you observe in others? The answer, in some way, is always yes. This is science at its best. It is based on pure observable evidence, yet is untestable in a lab and can only be tested in our own conscious experience. Once you perfect yourself, you'll realize that the external world will begin to follow suit:

"Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." (Mthw 23:26)

This is why judging others is futile; we are simply judging ourselves. Just lest ye be judged. Only once we correct ourselves can we begin to truly correct others:

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." (Mthw 7:3-5)

THIS IS KARMA!!! it is as true a law of nature as gravity, but it is much more subtle. This is why Jesus had to die an unimaginably painful death, he was essentially the karmic sponge for all the crappiness of people's actions; he died for the forgiveness of sins and absorbed all the bad karma that was present in the world, despite being the perfect human who deserved no bad karma. Furthermore, this is why, above all else, the law in the New Testament says to love your neighbor as you would love yourself; because your neighbor is you! Atman is Brahman. Hindu tradition teaches that the point of life is realizing that Atman is Brahman. We are all appendages of the eternal living God (Psalm 82:6). The apostles achieved this state of being, and became in-tuned with the collective conscious as one:

"All the believers were one in heart and mind." (Acts 4:32)

Our life is a story of homecoming, uniting the Atman with Brahman, the eternal Whole, the Alpha and the Omega. We just have to look beyond the smoke and mirrors that have been in front of our face our entire life that cause separation.

"Of all the evil in the world, there are no victims, only participants"

Although I said this phenomenon is only scientifically calculable in our own individual psyche, there is an implication of this karmic law built into our neuroanatomy. The neurons exiting our brain decussate, or cross, to the opposite side of the body. For example, the left brain hemisphere senses the right side of the body, and the right brain hemisphere senses the left side of the body. The right brain hemisphere perceives the left visual field, and the left brain hemisphere perceives the right visual field. etc, etc. The external world is quite literally a mirror image of our own conscious state:

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one and make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside and the above like the below... then you will enter the kingdom" (Thomas 22)

Our body is a projector just as much as it is a sensor.

a reply to: cooperton

Good post. Sn'F
Food for though , thank you.

a reply to: cooperton

nice thread!

When you start honestly and objectively introspect about yourself and people around you the illusion stares you right back. And it would seem that we have far more things in common than not. And at least for me it is true that usually that which bugs me in other people it is just a projection of my own issue I need to work out.

we are all playing the game, if the majority of people would stop playing then it would be game over. As long as we are just pointing fingers at each other and not ourself this will just go on spinning, a never ending story.

That was well thought out, and the comparison between some core Hindu and Christian principles was excellent! The quotes were also very supportive of your argument relative to real practice, insight, and change.
Thank you.

A few comments:

originally posted by: cooperton
Once you perfect yourself, you'll realize that the external world will begin to follow suit:

I have a difficult time with what you are saying in terms of perfecting oneself. This implies someone must keep working on themselves with some kind of result in mind. How can an egoic being actually ever perfect himself or herself?

And this ties in with the next comment:

originally posted by: cooperton
Furthermore, this is why, above all else, the law in the New Testament says to love your neighbor as you would love yourself; because your neighbor is you! Atman is Brahman.

Actually Jesus' first and greatest commandment, as you well know, is to love God with the whole body-mind, heart, and spirit. Then he gives the second commandment.

This is a very important distinction because even though both may seem impossible to an egoic being (a "sinner"), they are what Jesus told his followers to do.

The wisdom in the first great commandment holds the key to what you are saying is necessary (perfection) - it tells us to turn everything to God - that means complete surrender to God of EVERYTHING.

This is the means for then being granted the gift from God to love fully, including one's neighbor as oneself. If one has surrendered into real love-communion with the Divine, then one sees that they are not separate from God, nor from neighbor.

In this communion, one's love grows and is always based on recognizing that we are not separate independent beings, but non-separate in this love. On that basis we readily love our neighbor, because as you point out, we are not separate from them.

So the distinction I am making here, is that one can only become perfect by surrendering completely to the Divine Reality that is already Perfect. No amount of individual effort to become perfect will ever result in it.

originally posted by: cooperton
The external world is quite literally a mirror image of our own conscious state:

Yes, and vice-versa. It is one event in Reality - although it seems like inner and outer to us.

The more this principle is lived, the more it becomes obvious that the external physical world and the internal subtle world co-exist. We begin to see that this whole appearance is psycho-physical in nature - not just material stuff - and real positive changes began to occur more and more, by continually living in communion with the Divine Living Reality that all appear in, and making whatever necessary changes in the world and in our spiritual practice.

originally posted by: cooperton
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one and make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside and the above like the below... then you will enter the kingdom" (Thomas 22)

Beautiful passage and summary.

originally posted by: cooperton
Our body is a projector just as much as it is a sensor.

Yes, definitely. We ultimately are modifications of the One Living Divine Conscious Light and this recognition is the means for real change of our body-mind's karmic patterns.

Thank you again for this thread.

a reply to: bb23108

In terms of "perfecting" yourself I believe what you are saying 100%, it is a surrendering of your old viewpoints (ego) to allow that flow of Divine Living Reality to pulse through your being. It is a matter of not letting our ego encumber this flow. The perfect offering is already there. Thank you for that epiphany. Gotta love the ATS community.


"As long as we are just pointing fingers at each other and not ourself this will just go on spinning, a never ending story."
@Unifinity

YES! exactly. Have you heard of "samsara"? samsara is the cycle, or never-ending story, of death and rebirth in which we are being trampled by karmic feedback. Liberation from samsara is said to reintroduce the Self to the Divine.

a reply to: cooperton

Thank you for your contribution.

It is true, that we are responsible for our actions, heir to our actions, born of our actions. Our karma is our own, and it is not anyone else's responsibility. Not god's, not a savior of mankind. The savior is present in your own heart.

When one has reached full enlightenment, there is no more karma that they create. It has been extinguished, and they can no longer take part in the karmic cycles of death and rebirth found in our world.

If we are sick of the corruption in this world, we must turn inwards, we must cultivate a kind and loving heart, slow to anger and wide in compassion and forgiveness. We must build our faculties of discernment to better attend to the situations which are important to our time and place.

Yet, the world stands and watches, as it destroys itself, where are you? Every action causes an equal and opposite reaction. In the struggle for more wealth which is fueled by greed, we can better know the happiness in the abandonment of this struggle and the pleasure in generosity. The world is imbalanced, and the only ones that can balance it is us.

But we must stand for truth, for noble actions. Yet we stand by idly, why? Can we overcome the great hurdles ahead of us as a species? I think we can, I know we can. But first we must start a fire, internally, we must have a zeal for what is right, we must sacrifice for a worthy cause. How? This is a question we must answer together.

All it takes is one spark.

Do not be idle, only those prone to death become idle. Life is a movement, an orchestra, and we must open ourselves up to this great movement. We must let go of our fear, abandon our perceived comforts. No one is safe, no being is safe, from the law of cause and effect. If we do not take care, we will lose that which there is to care for. We must be guardians of this gift that is life, do not squander it! Strive valiantly I say, tear off everything that keeps you from waking up.

I know there is a place of refuge, a place of peace and tranquility; and it lies in the heart of man. Here, always here, nowhere else.

a reply to: cooperton

Great perspective ....

a reply to: cooperton
Well you said it yourself. Of all the evil in the world there are no victims, only participants. But in a binary existence in this duality, there can not be one without the other. People just get confused and believe that one and the other are two different separate things, which off course they are not.

originally posted by: cooperton
YES! exactly. Have you heard of "samsara"? samsara is the cycle, or never-ending story, of death and rebirth in which we are being trampled by karmic feedback. Liberation from samsara is said to reintroduce the Self to the Divine.

this expression - samsara, is not new to me. I follow as good as I can manage my own "sadhana" - renunciation, spiritual practice (devotion, meditation) and try to be most virtuous in good faith that someday I will feel liberated from it and be paramatman or the real Divine self - it is slowly growing to be my one and only goal in life as bizarre experiences and synchronicities are noticeable and are happening more frequently the further I walk down this rabbit hole.

So for me, your OP is definitely the truth or at least part of it

a reply to: cooperton

How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye

But for me to see the speck in the others eye I wouldn't have a plank in mine. A better translation would be to remove the foot out of my mouth so I can begin to talk about my brothers speck.

This is why Jesus had to die an unimaginably painful death, he was essentially the karmic sponge for all the crappiness of people's actions; he died for the forgiveness of sins and absorbed all the bad karma that was present in the world

He died a painful death because he led an insurrection...you have to read between the lines. Peter was armed at Gethsemene, remember also that it took a cohort of Romans to quell the riots. Hardly necessary if all they were doing is singing Kumbayas.

As to Karma, meh its no different than the myth of eternal punishment in hell. Both are useful tools to keep the meek in check. Meanwhile the powerful keep draining your energy and you toil at 50/60 hours working weeks. The progress of our evolution from farming/hunter gatherers to urbanites - "civilians" numbered and taxed from birth till death.

I dont buy your sophistry any more.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
As to Karma, meh its no different than the myth of eternal punishment in hell. Both are useful tools to keep the meek in check.

The way I see it, is that karma is quite different from "the myth of eternal punishment in hell". Karma has to do with psycho-physical laws that are often summarized as "you reap what you sow", and in that since is similar to the Western view.

I agree with you that the concepts of eternal damnation and original sin are myths. Why is it assumed that we are limited and Godless beings until such time as we are saved or free of sin or karma? That is indeed a myth, because Reality is indivisible, and inherently we are never separate from Reality. So we don't have to be saved by someone else, or do something to keep from going to hell.

Of course, we can all be guided by others, but that is not the same as waiting to be "saved" before we can be free in God.

Our missing the mark (sin) involves us simply forgetting this essential truth that we are never separate from the Divine. But because we do forget, we then act out of sync with the Divine Reality. Such action is "karmic" in the sense that we are acting based on separate self, a lie, and therefore our actions tend to be separative, rather than about love and in unity with the Whole.

If we are in communion with the indivisible Reality, our actions are more aligned to the whole, and therefore are not missing the mark.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: cooperton

This is why Jesus had to die an unimaginably painful death, he was essentially the karmic sponge for all the crappiness of people's actions; he died for the forgiveness of sins and absorbed all the bad karma that was present in the world

He died a painful death because he led an insurrection...you have to read between the lines. Peter was armed at Gethsemene, remember also that it took a cohort of Romans to quell the riots. Hardly necessary if all they were doing is singing Kumbayas.

Jesus was equipped only with the sword of truth. He was far from a simple leader of a rebellion, even Pontius Pilot gives his opinion about Jesus in a letter to Caesar:

"...Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews -- not the poor but the rich and powerful."

(letter from Pontius Pilot to Tiberius Caesar, available at the congressional library or here: www.thenazareneway.com...)

Despite Pilot's opinion, The "rich and powerful" would have their way and Jesus would be executed according to Divine Plan, to atone for the sins of the world.

As to Karma, meh its no different than the myth of eternal punishment in hell.

I think the "eternal fire" is equivalent to samsara in Hindu tradition, it is an endless realm of suffering and the purpose is to be liberated from samsara/eternal fire by relinquishing ignorance and seeking truth. I agree with bb23108 when he said that karma should be thought of as reaping what you sow:

“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit... A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart." (Luke 6:43-45)

Any Christian is obliged to believe that this karmic law is true because it is written explicitly in gospel multiple times. General seekers of the truth can take it or leave it, but in my own experience I have realized this to be completely true.

Meanwhile the powerful keep draining your energy and you toil at 50/60 hours working weeks.

Sounds like you're eager to 'drop your nets' for some sort of spiritual exodus. I'm with you on that.

I dont buy your sophistry any more.

our life consists of a choice; death and taxes, or eternal life and liberty with The Eternal Being. When Moses asked God who he was, God simply replied "I am that I am". 'I am' is the present tense of 'to be'. God is the Eternal Being, the Alpha and Omega, and our life is purposed for reunion with this form of Being. Eternal life with the Eternal being is difficult for us to ascertain with all the limitations we put on ourselves. When Jesus says all can attain Eternal Life with the Eternal Being, the Jews don't believe him, so he extrapolates on the matter:

"I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:38-58)

Jesus' teachings are meant to help us unite with the Eternal "I Am". Missing the point of life (sinning) disallows us to unite with Being, and the result is death. This is not sophistry, this is the teaching of God.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

“Through the abandonment of desire, the deathless state is realized.”
(Buddhism: Samyatta Nikaya xlvii 37)

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
(John 5:24)

To be or not to be, that is the question of life.

a reply to: cooperton

I agree with what you have presented. Many great posts. I did not noticed this until you provided a link in the 7 billion people thread.