Why Is Shame So Powerful?

a reply to: MimiSia

My pleasure MimiSia.

I'm pleased i brought a smile to someone, thanks for the thanks!

a reply to: jessme2

You're right, rape victims do feel shame, because it is the feeling of inadequacy.

Deep down the perpetrators are shameful too.

Being inadequate, is basically not living up to the normal standards of society, and thus one feels shame.

Now rape will make one feel shame, because we know it's not a socially acceptable thing to do. Therefore the perpetrator will be ashamed deep down.

Likewise the victim also feels shame, because they were subjected to this socially unacceptable behaviour, and now feel that same shame, because they know such behaviour isn't right and that they will be known forever as a rape victim and this makes them shameful.

Remember shame is just the feeling of inadequacy.

So, no it's not the victim's fault that they will be ashamed, but they will be, simply because of the stigma attached to the behaviour.

originally posted by: Bluesma

I did not get chance to apologize to her- she kept avoiding me the rest of the night, and the next morning too- I actively searched her out a few times, to have a chance to apologize and explain, and could not get to her.

Ok, and I am just letting my curiosity kill the cat of me in wondering, you didnt think you offended her too much, that even after not being able to find her, or as you said at breakfast she avoided you, but even the next day you were not compelled to write her a letter or email, even saying 'I would have liked to say this in person, but I searched you out and could not get to you', so you have not talked to her since, or were not compelled to apologize soon after, either because the sanctity of your relationship with her was not important enough or meaningful, or you were, dare I wonder, too ashamed?

You are right, we are creatures with many different emotions and sentiments, on many levels – so it is not as clean cut as I may have made it sound. I am definitely admirative of her beauty…. And honestly, I often ask myself, what is the difference between admiration and jealousy?

I hope you dont think I am a creep, merely observant, but I do recall seeing a picture of you some time ago, perhaps on the ats member photo thread, and thought you were one of the most beautiful females I have ever seen; so a counter question; when is one beautiful enough, to no longer be able to be jealous of anothers beauty? (I am still not sure if the correct term is envy here) might the only way a very beautiful woman be truly content with her beauty is if all other women are very much uglier than her? Almost a blessing and a curse, unless one uses their will to force themselves to be content, and when in the presence of another woman to let her have her glory, as I am sure you have been the object of jealousy of other women throughout your life. It is very difficult situation, and I figure it stems for our infinite capacity to desire, we are never fulfilled, we can never have enough attention, more more more, better and different.

I observe that it has to do with the perceived responses from the object of your admiration. If the person you admire turns attention to you in a warm, kind, or affectionate way, it remains admiration (a positive thing) if they remain distant or cold towards you it becomes a more bitter type of feeling: jealousy.

Well I think jealous/envy, and noting things are not so simple, but there are infinite contexts and circumstances in which these concepts come about, can motivate/inspire, or murder (inspiration). If I see someone with nice things and a nice physique or something, I can admire them, for the work the have done to get their valuables, and I can say, I will use this as inspiration to determine what I have to do to be like them, or I can say; it is impossible for me to do what they did so they killed my motivation to try and I hate them for being better than me.

I think it always comes back to how and how much we accept ourselves. Which is almost impossible from birth to death to be a strong 100%. So if we are fortunate and strong willed, we only suffer ourselves slightly, over trifles here and there, which we may quickly get over and forget about; "wow, look at that guy with the nice clothes and nice car and beautiful girlfriend and all that money in his pocket, dont I wish I were in his position, ouch, the fact I am not is hurting me"... or... "I see that person, I am glad he exists and is happy, and has worked hard to get what he wanted... I am happy and have my life to live and so I will continue to do that as I will, do what I can to make the best of my life"... but then on the other end of the spectrum, we can only trick ourselves so much, "I have nothing to eat, my legs and arms have just been ripped off and I am up to my neck in mud in the middle of the jungle, but this is fine, I am happy" (exaggeration/analogy of course)

From so often being on the other side (being the American faced with friendly mockeries, feeling targeted with aggression and hurt) I’ve learned that if you respond in kind, and take part in the provocative banter, it actually brings you closer together! Any of those underlying subtle feelings are expressed out and eliminated, and what remains is only affection and a feeling of closeness.

I agree, it is common to know that best of friends insult each other as a form of play, but we must agree that there are sensitive limits and boundaries, and it depends on how well you truly know the person; consider me at a party with my girlfriend and she introduces me to her long time best friend who I have never met, she says "hey nice to meet you" and I say "hey you big fat dumb ugly slut" (exaggeration of course to attempt to express my point of the subtleties of human relations)

It is somewhat like passing back and forth a hot potato until it cools down.
The hurt only happens when you refuse to throw it back. When your conditioned limits cause you to repress any reciprocation of the behaviour. You are stuck holding the hot potato in your hands.

As much as insults might be fun and friendly, I can also imagine being hurt by something someone says even if it is true, or especially if it is true. If I was the most handsomest man in the world and everyone knew this and agreed and I was a famous model and had 100 girlfriends, and someone said, "you are ugly"... or, to make this more objective, lets say I am the richest man in the world, and someone said "ha ha! you are so poor!", I would have no reason to take offense to this, because it is obviously not true. But if I am very ugly, lets say I am fat and poor and extremely ugly, and my friends joke with me about this, of course I can accept it, maybe laugh along and say 'yep, its true, I suppose its funny', but if I do truly care in some sense, or am concerned with my appearance, hearing the truth of others thoughts about me, can hurt... but musnt we accept the truth above all else...and also to consider how a humans mind may change "I hate you!"... "im sorry... that wasnt how i truly felt, it was just the moment, I really love you"...."I hate you!".... im sorry, that wasnt how I truly felt, it was just the moment, i really love you"... "I hate you!".....

originally posted by: Bluesma

Our American ways of being super positive and enthousiastic makes them highly suspicious. If you are excitedly claiming everything is awesome and hugging everyone in your vicinity, showering them with compliments, then they think- if all her positive is outside like that, what is left inside? Inside, her real self, must be absolutely hateful!

This is such an interesting idea... That every one so distrusts everyone, that everyone is so expected of everyone to be constantly fake, that we must assume the true person is opposite of what they are existing as to us. It is a very interesting thing, the nature of intention. The nature of sincerity. The nature of conniving, of manipulation, of desire, of power and control. I can perhaps be very nice to a person only because I want them to do something for me. I can perhaps be very mean to a person only because I want them to do something for me. Perhaps a female likes me because of how mean and badly I treat her. Perhaps I pretend to be nice, but really am a devil inside and go around saying please and thank you and helping old ladies cross the road while only thinking of torturing and murdering everyone around me. Tricky thing this existing is!

The question of sincerity, ultimately, is not easy to discern in an objective way, as you point out. Ambivalence is a human condition we always find, the deeper we search. If we always have both negative and positive feelings about things, in the end, what becomes identified with as the “real” one, is the one that we choose to keep inside. So different cultures believe in throwing out there different kinds of feelings and behaviors.

I think it has to do with comfortability. With the easiness of life. If we were in a tribe of humans, and every day we all had to do very difficult work just to survive day after day, we wouldnt even have time to be A- expletives to each other, and this would be the truest expression of love for one another, because we would be aware how our cooperation and positivity and working together and appreciation for dedication and determination for the individual to live and for the group to live, that it would harm us if we thought things like "I hate this person, i wish they didnt exist", "well that person spends all their time hunting and fishing and repairing homes and defending us from predators and raising children and improving language, so if you wish they didnt exist, our tribe would be the worse because of it!"

So because we live in such a comfortable world, where we have so much freedom, a people are a dime a dozen. We can sit on our thrones and say 'off with their heads, they bother me so!'.

Yes, that does make my interactions with others extremely complicated in my head- I am watching each others movements in each second, and trying to determine how they react to each word, posture, gesture… this is how I learned to speak and understand French, through observation and making associations. It is why I need alone time, because it can get quite stressful and tiring to be around others for long periods of time.

Oh I can imagine. I dont think I could ever learn another language, mainly though because I just wouldnt want to, but that is certainly difficult, so I commend you for that, I admire you (without envy, for that). If you dont mind me asking, where did you grow up?

It also means that I cannot “let go” very often with things like alcohol- it gets in the way of that needed concentration and focus. I use to consider that I just couldn’t drink in France at a party, because I’d start acting too American, gushing over others with compliments which make them suspicious and uncomfortable (I am one of those that starts proclaiming to everyone that I love them soooooo mush),

Wow, I think that is a pure expression of happiness, and the true nature of party. The celebration of being, the love of life and gratefulness for the existence of others, what a shame you feel shame over it.

The guys in the locker room who make big shows of being tough, insensitive, self centered and confident….imagine if all the opposite of those characteristics is what is being kept in, and is their “real” nature then?

Yes, it is possible they are scared, or ashamed of aspects of their true nature, that they wish to move far away from this vulnerable aspects, because partly with good reason, evolutionarily, the nature of man, is one of being a hub of control, safety, security, and insurance, and to prove how strong and immovable and unshakeable and unbreakable he was, that a woman could trust in him to protect her and her children, and that her children might be strong like him, was and is a very valuable thing to humans.

a reply to: DAZ21

I would state that it is possible the perpetrator will not and likely often does not feel shame, because they feel justified, because they feel as if they have been wronged by the world, so they are enacting righteous revenge.

I would state that the person who is raped feels more ashamed that the situation occurred, then anything else attached or viewed about it.

Imagine yourself, if you have your happy life, you have your family, the things you love, your hobbies and crafts, your entertainments, your work; and then one day or night, a random strange human takes control of your being, and physically hurts you in relation to the most intimate way. Now, being a male, I am not attracted to men sexually very much, though can understand the beauty of a strong intelligent handsome man, I have also seen the absolute physical grotesque horrible creatures that some men are, disgusting and vile, and though I would never want to sexually be involved and especially not controlled by any of them, the latter would be something of a hell to be in an unescapable physical damaging situation with. That I value my body, and its privacy, and I would be grossed out and horrord by it being taken advantage of against my will. ( I cannot even fathom the nature of willful prostitutes, though as a male, who has trouble 'getting it', I think under certain conditions beyond not even minding potentially valuing such a duty as to be 'giving it' to paying females, while understanding that some of the cliental and some of the acts desired, may be absolutely revolting. I personally have a bit of a weak stomach or whatever its called, I dont like blood and guts and weird human liquids, so I can imagine some scenarios that would be quite torturous to me). There is also that difference to note, of male being the 'giver' and female being the 'receiver', the difference of having a stranger hammer a pole inside the area that ones babies may have grown in may yet to grow in may be growing in, and being a stranger who is doing the savage hammering. If you have a female in your life; mother, sister, daughter, girlfriend, wife; perhaps you can comprehend why they might feel; if not shame, something of a feeling and mindstate they cannot rid themselves of, if they were raped.

originally posted by: ImaFungi

This is such an interesting idea... That every one so distrusts everyone, that everyone is so expected of everyone to be constantly fake, that we must assume the true person is opposite of what they are existing as to us.

The very nature of human psychology and intent is fascinating. Sincerity.. what is "really" the intent? There are, I percieve, levels of intention that are co-existing on many levels. The draw towards power, the draw towards bonding, affection, is my intent "to get something" the real intent? Is the intent to share and love the real intent? They are both there, which shall I label "the real intent"? The one kept hidden or the one expressed directly?

I think it has to do with comfortability. With the easiness of life. If we were in a tribe of humans, and every day we all had to do very difficult work just to survive day after day, we wouldnt even have time to be A- expletives to each other, and this would be the truest expression of love for one another, because we would be aware how our cooperation and positivity and working together and appreciation for dedication and determination for the individual to live and for the group to live, that it would harm us if we thought things like "I hate this person, i wish they didnt exist", "well that person spends all their time hunting and fishing and repairing homes and defending us from predators and raising children and improving language, so if you wish they didnt exist, our tribe would be the worse because of it!"
So because we live in such a comfortable world, where we have so much freedom, a people are a dime a dozen. We can sit on our thrones and say 'off with their heads, they bother me so!'.

This is the big difference, I perceive, in a socialist-type culture- a recognition of interdependence which effects every other way you choose to regard others....(note- I said "culture" and not "political system" ; I consider it important to make the distinction).

If you dont mind me asking, where did you grow up?

California; Los Angeles and Orange County. Though my childhood conditions developed this extreme focus on reading others and my environment.

Wow, I think that is a pure expression of happiness, and the true nature of party. The celebration of being, the love of life and gratefulness for the existence of others, what a shame you feel shame over it.

Eh... I feel shame over my lack of clear communication in such circumstances. The feeling of love remains the same intended communication, only the most effective way of communicating that changes, depending upon the environment. If hanging on everyone and proclaiming my love will be misunderstood, then that is a mistake in communication- not in intent.
Obviously then I do not suffer from a lack of self esteem that goes deeply, but rather a exaggerated focus on self control and mastership. "I'm a good person, I just fail to express that in ways others can understand all the time." sort of thinking.

A side effect of that view, which I consider a benefit- In turn, I regard others the same way usually- assuming a loving intent that was just ill expressed. (though changing cultures radically challenged that assumption at first).

Yes, it is possible they are scared, or ashamed of aspects of their true nature, that they wish to move far away from this vulnerable aspects

This is the basis of the concept of homophobia- that people overly concerned with bashing homosexuality do so because they are fighting off their own homosexual drives.
I propose the possibility that exaggerated refusal of the most subtle (normal) homosexual influences might make them grow to higher force inside... that the behavior causes the internal drives to strengthen, and not the other way around.

originally posted by: ImaFungi

Ok, and I am just letting my curiosity kill the cat of me in wondering, you didnt think you offended her too much, that even after not being able to find her, or as you said at breakfast she avoided you, but even the next day you were not compelled to write her a letter or email, even saying 'I would have liked to say this in person, but I searched you out and could not get to you', so you have not talked to her since, or were not compelled to apologize soon after, either because the sanctity of your relationship with her was not important enough or meaningful, or you were, dare I wonder, too ashamed?

That is a good question! Very thought provoking and insightful! I did not try further because I am not totally sure of my interpretation of her feelings. Perhaps I am wrong? I had in mind past events in which further attempts turned out to be "heavy" emotionally for others. I would have to explain to her these differences in culture (which would have been hard for her to comprehend) and it would be very wordy.

Two problems with that-
I have noticed that people tend to assume that if you use a lot of words, you are bull#ting. That an elaborate explanation automatically means you are trying to confuse them from the truth (simple is easier to understand therefore = truth).
Second- I have experiences in the past where I did such action and the other replied with, um, it's okay, actually I didn't even take it that way, so your apology was unecessary. (and uncomfortable for me). < A bit of shame there. Mistake.
So I chose to take the chance I might be wrong, or that she hates me since, which is perhaps acceptable results of an ill chosen act on my part.

I hope you dont think I am a creep, merely observant, but I do recall seeing a picture of you some time ago, perhaps on the ats member photo thread, and thought you were one of the most beautiful females I have ever seen; so a counter question; when is one beautiful enough, to no longer be able to be jealous of anothers beauty?

Yikes! This is a sensitive area to poke. Um... I have struggled with the conception others have of my appearence, in the past. I am quite happy now that I am no longer seen as beautiful as before. I do not see myself as beautiful, and did not when younger, only because my idea of beauty differs (I love dark hair and eyes, short muscles and curvy bodies).
I tend to worry greatly about this strange way some people are attracted to my appearence; I see it as an obstacle to making other women comfortable in my presence, and to having friendships with men that I value, only to find out it was not only friendship for them. I will sometimes make a show of being jealous another woman to comfort them and make them feel better around me... which is part of the trying to bond thing. If they can feel I am admirative and jealous of them, they might be more open to me.

I agree, it is common to know that best of friends insult each other as a form of play, but we must agree that there are sensitive limits and boundaries, and it depends on how well you truly know the person; consider me at a party with my girlfriend and she introduces me to her long time best friend who I have never met, she says "hey nice to meet you" and I say "hey you big fat dumb ugly slut" (exaggeration of course to attempt to express my point of the subtleties of human relations)

LOL! Actually, that could be a french persons remark upon meeting someone, and it has happened to me!!!! Everyone in the room knew it was a way of saying, Wow! I think you are gorgeous!" -except me, who took it rather literally at the time, and had no idea why all the other invitées smiled and laughed at this cruel welcome....

I
As much as insults might be fun and friendly, I can also imagine being hurt by something someone says even if it is true, or especially if it is true. If I was the most handsomest man in the world and everyone knew this and agreed and I was a famous model and had 100 girlfriends, and someone said, "you are ugly"... or, to make this more objective, lets say I am the richest man in the world, and someone said "ha ha! you are so poor!", I would have no reason to take offense to this, because it is obviously not true.

This converges with what I said above- why would it matter to me that someone would greet me with "You are so ugly" if I am uncomfortable with being perceived as beautiful anyway?

The perception of beauty is subjective and relative, everyone has the right to judge it where they will.
What bothered me was my (mis)comprehension of intent-

Knowing most people are hurt by being perceived as ugly,
and proclaiming so outloud upon meeting me, in front of others,
It seemed to me that speaker intend to hurt my feelings.
THAT was what made me cry- the intent. The desire to make me suffer, from a total stranger.
That attacks my beliefs about human beings and their base nature, which is what keeps me alive.

originally posted by: Bluesma

The very nature of human psychology and intent is fascinating. Sincerity.. what is "really" the intent? There are, I percieve, levels of intention that are co-existing on many levels. The draw towards power, the draw towards bonding, affection, is my intent "to get something" the real intent? Is the intent to share and love the real intent? They are both there, which shall I label "the real intent"? The one kept hidden or the one expressed directly?

Tricky situation. Because generally we are selfish, and must be to continue living and continue living well, with the general thought; if all are selfish without breaking the law, all will be cared of and for; perhaps ought we assume that all intent is generally for the self to enjoy it self, for the self to 'do what it wants' or do what in the moment it thinks it wants. That maybe even most selflessness is also selfish. But also, that it is possible for genuine selflessness to exist, which is so rare and difficult, that people are weary when you truly compliment them because you want them to feel good, if that is why you compliment them. Or if you compliment them to show them how observant and warm and willing to admit about another you are. To show that, normally I am supposed to be jealous of you, but I will attack you with my kindness, and show you that I can admit that you are pretty, and would even make me feel good to make you feel good. I dont know, lost my thoughts a bit there, difficult and complex topic.

Eh... I feel shame over my lack of clear communication in such circumstances. The feeling of love remains the same intended communication, only the most effective way of communicating that changes, depending upon the environment. If hanging on everyone and proclaiming my love will be misunderstood, then that is a mistake in communication- not in intent.
Obviously then I do not suffer from a lack of self esteem that goes deeply, but rather a exaggerated focus on self control and mastership. "I'm a good person, I just fail to express that in ways others can understand all the time." sort of thinking.

Yes, I dont think you have any reason to feel guilty, and I am certain there are many people in the world who would love to party with you, to latch on to you (platonically, if thats possible) and tell you they looooove you. But now that you consider that, is that more of a reason for you to stop, as in a treat others how you want to be treated. Still, dont be so harsh on yourself, you are a good and great person, deserve to let loose, tell others you love them, celebrate life, have fun.

This is the basis of the concept of homophobia- that people overly concerned with bashing homosexuality do so because they are fighting off their own homosexual drives.
I propose the possibility that exaggerated refusal of the most subtle (normal) homosexual influences might make them grow to higher force inside... that the behavior causes the internal drives to strengthen, and not the other way around.

Interesting. I think while that may be one reason for it, it is not the total reason. I think there is good reason to believe that a percentage of heterosexual males are truly repulsed by the thought and concept, and heres why; evolution. I propose it is probably an evolutionary mechanism, to so despise the concept of gaydom, to ensure that the person themselves will not be gay, to increase the chances of their mating. Now, ironically, if this were true, these people would actually celebrate gaydom, because it increases the chances of their mating. But now I see, once they have a mate and kids, then they become that evolutionary mechanism for their children, afraid that their son might be gay.

originally posted by: Bluesma

I have noticed that people tend to assume that if you use a lot of words, you are bull#ting. That an elaborate explanation automatically means you are trying to confuse them from the truth (simple is easier to understand therefore = truth).
Second- I have experiences in the past where I did such action and the other replied with, um, it's okay, actually I didn't even take it that way, so your apology was unecessary. (and uncomfortable for me). < A bit of shame there. Mistake.
So I chose to take the chance I might be wrong, or that she hates me since, which is perhaps acceptable results of an ill chosen act on my part.

Interesting. I am familiar with those scenarios. To make things even more convoluted and complicated, it is possible that in that second scenario, the person did know exactly what you were talking about, but something with them (shame? wanting to make you feel that bit of awkwardness as punishment?) decided to end it by pretending they didnt notice, of course this is conjecture and speculation but potentially a possibility, though yes I do hate the idea of giving credence to what appears to be a possibility, but in reality is not the truth.

The lot of words argument...hm, it sounds like you are still entirely convinced that what you said was appropriate, and instead of just apologizing, you would continue to try to plead your case for innocence. I agree you are innocent and everything, but if you did truly offend her at all, upset her at all, confuse her at all, on her wedding day, as much as you plead and are correct via your original intentions, and disposition of your general nature; she may not accept this form of apology, as it would not justify the objectivity of the event, which may have hit her the wrong way, regardless of your intent.

I am not trying to shame you! You should know I admire you and think you are intelligent and a great person and I am glad we can speak, I would feel bad if I am making you feel guilty in any way, please, we are merely two spirits stepping back from reality and discussing all the complexities of it and how difficult it can be to play the human game when so up close and personal in real time.

I tend to worry greatly about this strange way some people are attracted to my appearence; I see it as an obstacle to making other women comfortable in my presence, and to having friendships with men that I value, only to find out it was not only friendship for them. I will sometimes make a show of being jealous another woman to comfort them and make them feel better around me... which is part of the trying to bond thing. If they can feel I am admirative and jealous of them, they might be more open to me.

Ok, now I see in your final statements here you touched about something I wrote before, the 'making the show' to make other women feel better.

And about your beauty, hey, I cannot control such thing, I didnt necessarily mean it sexually, you are beautiful as many aspects of nature are beautiful, as you are an aspect of nature which is beautiful. If you do not want me to think or say as such, I will lie to you if you prefer. Or I suppose it is more like, you would rather not build up confidence off of peoples compliments, because you have learned that it may be painful those moments when you do fall off that tower of compliments. That is the female burden I am afraid, the blessing and the curse of beauty and being female, the fact that according to nature and biology first and foremost the female body is one of the most valuable things in nature, the portal to which life enters the world, and again, I am afraid it is pesky evolution, which proved that the more one thinks about and desires sex the greater chances they will reproduce. I am interested in that question, of is it truly possible for a man and a woman to truly be platonic friends; I think it is possible, but over time, considering how long a year can be, how long a month, how long a week, how long a day can be, how long an hour can be, some times how long a minute can be, there is so much variables and probability, mixed in with that fact that over this time, many a man can not help but to desire female company, it seems nearly impossible for man and woman friends, for the man to not think of the woman at times in a sexual light. It might even be scary and cynically true, that the first thing a man thinks and notices in every woman he meets is if he can imagine desiring to have sex with her...but that is pure conjecture and speculation. I think it is a fortunate, strong, bizarre and crazy man that can so distance himself from his biology, that he can be amongst beautiful women and not once think about what it would be like to be intimate. Now I can imagine the majority of men, are so 'well taken care of' that when in public and generally, occupied with the events and informations of the world, that they do not think about it, this is probably a case by case basis thing, and that men can go long spans of time amongst women that he is biologically attracted to, as they are objectively beautiful, and not desire to be intimate with them (of course there would also probably be the significant difference between the males relationship status). Maybe I can only speak to myself, and while doing so must admit that I am most likely as a human, very different in ways from the average person, and believe me not only because I want to be and feel rebellious or different, but because I am a philosopher and can and want nothing other than to, make the most honest attempt to compare and contrast reality, I am quite certain my mind and imagination is able to and does often, operate differently than the norm.

LOL! Actually, that could be a french persons remark upon meeting someone, and it has happened to me!!!! Everyone in the room knew it was a way of saying, Wow! I think you are gorgeous!" -except me, who took it rather literally at the time, and had no idea why all the other invitées smiled and laughed at this cruel welcome....

Lol, that is hard to believe. I know that that is not an entirely french thing, I think there are types of people that can be compared across all cultures, sort of archetypes of people, that are more similarly compared than to different types of people in their own culture, which better compare to their counterparts in other cultures. Perhaps it was more specifically that this person thought it was their method to try and hit on you, to make you feel bad, to give him some sort of power over you, the whole intent thing, what was his true intent.

Knowing most people are hurt by being perceived as ugly,
and proclaiming so outloud upon meeting me, in front of others,
It seemed to me that speaker intend to hurt my feelings.
THAT was what made me cry- the intent. The desire to make me suffer, from a total stranger.
That attacks my beliefs about human beings and their base nature, which is what keeps me alive.

Oh wow, that is a bummer. Did things end up progressing ok, with apologies and explanations? It could very well be that he saw a beauty so unattainable to him, and his ego was so hurt, that his natural reaction was to attempt to hurt you.

Do you know what shame really represents? It represents invalidation. When you do something and nobody reacts to it, when all you get is an "awkward silence" then they have shunned you, treating you as if you are not a real person or as if you do not exist. The memory of feeling bleakly "alone" sticks in the mind, and it makes you feel less than what you are.

originally posted by: SystemResistor
Do you know what shame really represents? It represents invalidation. When you do something and nobody reacts to it, when all you get is an "awkward silence" then they have shunned you, treating you as if you are not a real person or as if you do not exist. The memory of feeling bleakly "alone" sticks in the mind, and it makes you feel less than what you are.

That's an interesting point of view/feeling. Maybe it can help me at times, in understanding how others feel.

I am used to having people not really understand me, or feel confused by my behavior or what I say, and that is how I take the silence. French people often just don't know what to make of how my brain works.
Just saying a compliment, or a positive observation is confusing to them because it is not often done in their culture.
Often the silence means they are contemplating what I said or did, and will need time to digest it mentally.

I don't feel comfortable with too much attention to myself, it feels like pressure and makes me anxious. The more they are paying attention to you, the more impact every move or word you do has to be carefully chosen and thought out to avoid hurting their feelings, offending them, or otherwise upsetting them- which I want to avoid doing.
By not giving me too much attention, they leave me feeling more free to be, to speak, to act silly and joyfully, and I appreciate that.
I guess that is why I totally understand animals that prefer you approach them with your eyes focusing elsewhere, in a nonchalant fashion. It allows them to relax and not feel pressured.

I probably try to offer that lack of direct attention to others sometimes, in hopes of making them comfortable, when, if they are like you, they might take that as something different, and feel shameful?

People are terribly diverse and complex, and I appreciate learning how to understand them better. Your self analyzation here is appreciated!

a reply to: SystemResistor

Shame can also be a deeply-rooted psychological programming to having done "something wrong" and being punished for it. This happens quite frequently in common everyday human child-rearing, where a kid accidentally #s up, something completely natural, and a stressed out parent freaks out at them, thus imprinting shame like a computer program that will echo and reactivate in countless future scenarios. Depending on the programming, it can be quite tenacious and irrational - and further societal complications can only compound the shame and multiply upon it. It can really be quite a dilly of a pickle for some people LOL

Lately I took a FB test for fun which seeked to determine "what is your subconscious secretly obsessed with?"
Another one of those stupid questionaires, like the ones that tell you "which Disney character you are".

Everyone else I know was getting things like "Nature", "Sex", "Food"..... mine was "Fear of losing those close to you."
There's an ambiance killer. Gulp. It was, I realized spot on, and no one had ever pointed that out to me.

I realized that my assertion of what feels shameful to me (hurting others, emotionally or physically, through not being mindful enough in my choice of acts or words) springs exactly from that. If I accidently hurt them, they shall leave, and that strikes fear in my heart. Not that I don't spend time alone- I do and I need to. But loss of love, exchange, connection, is at the root.

Is it possible that all sources of shame spring from that sense of need for others, for belonging, for relation?
When one feels they have acted in a way that is socially unacceptable, that is usually what is at risk...

(oh yeah... and I was Bambi too )