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In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the worlds. Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgement. You alone do we worship, and you alone do we ask for help.
Guide us on the straight path. The path of those on whom you have bestowed your favours.
Not those who have earned your wrath, or those who have gone astray.
Alif Laam Mim. That this is the book, there is no doubt. A guidance for the righteous-
Those who believe in the unseen, and establish prayer, and give in charity from that which has been provided to them.
And those who believe what was sent down to you, and sent down before you, and what will come in the Hereafter.
They have found the guidance of their Lord, and they will be successful...
There some mixed up chronology that is bothering you?
Insofar as your queries about Quran-only muslims "operating within the confines of the Quran" by going on pilgrimage, yes. Several places in the Quran there are instructions to its followers to go on the pilgrimage. So I'm not sure what you mean.
The apocryphal writings to which we referred in the last paragraph state that Mary remained in the Temple after her presentation in order to be educated with other Jewish children. There she enjoyed ecstatic visions and daily visits of the holy angels. When she was fourteen, the high priest wished to send her home for marriage.
There has been centuries of scholarship on hadith methodology, and reliability of authors, not to mention that the age of Aisha also plays an important (and unfortunate) part in medieval rivalry between shia (many who considered her an evil woman who coerced the Prophet and exercised her father's machinations) and sunni (who try to emphasise her 'purity' and holiness by making her as young a virgin as possible).
Finally, with regard to the issues on the age of Aisha mentioned in the hadith- there are many. It is hardly "sophisticated muslim historians" writing "stark and unembellished" accounts.
Do you have any proof that Mary was NOT 12-14 when she was married?
As for the Catholic link, it is not something that bothers me,
And I wouldn't know the level of embellishment of the stories involving Aisha. I wasn't around to see the actual event.
If the hadith says she was 6 when married and 9 when the marriage was consummated, and the surrounding evidence speaks against that, isn't that an embellishment?
the first couple of links were from non-muslim sources trying to "disprove the Quran", and used language very similar to yours "The Quran is confusing because it is not chronological" "The Quran doesn't make sense", etc.
Perhaps at most I implied that you had obtained your opinion on the confusingness of the Quran from sites that had a goal to somehow disprove the Quran.
Also, since the accepted and established tradition shows that women were married that young, and that Judaism (and the Christianity tha derived from it) saw no issue with that age, I don't see why we should remain agnostic.
Already the surrounding evidence doesn't match up with the age provided in that specific narration, so as I said, I wouldn't know what else had been embellished.
originally posted by: babloyi
There is much debate about the actual age of A'ishah when she got married to Muhammad. Originally she was meant to marry another person, but he broke it off due to religious differences. While there is 1 Hadith from Sahih Bukhari that says directly that A'ishah was 9 at this time, it contradicts numerous other Hadith, and one of the people in the chain of narration (Hisham ibn `urwah) was very old, and suffered memory loss at the time that he related this and other Hadith (many of which are considered suspect).
Here is a (disorganised ) list:
* A'ishah got married in 1AH (1 year after the muslims migrated to Medinah from Mecca)
* According to Tabiri, all of Abu Bakr's (A'ishah's father) children were born during the Pre-Islamic period, which would put A'ishah at being AT LEAST 14 when she got married.
* When the 1st migration (to Abyssinia) occurred, Abu Bakr took Ayesha to the house of her betrothed (the guy before Muhammad), and asked him to take her into his house, which he refused for religious reasons. The Migration to Abyssinia took place 8 years before AH, so if Ayesha was 6 when she married Muhammad, she couldn't have even been alive at this time!
* According to the Kitab-ul-Tasfir, A'ishah was a "young girl" (as opposed to an infant) when the 54th Surah of the Quran was revealed. Surah Al-Qamar (the 54th surah) was revealed 9 years before AH.
In fact, the Qur’an contains demonstrably legendary stories about Jesus which evolved during the centuries after his death. I’m referring to stories about Jesus which are found in the so-called apocryphal gospels–these are forgeries which appeared in the second and third centuries after Christ–and which the Qur’an unwittingly repeats as facts. For example, the Qur’an mentions the story–borrowed from the legendary forgery entitled The Infancy Gospel of Thomas–of how the boy Jesus made a bird out of clay and then made it come to life (III.70, V.100-110). Such stories are fictional. Thus, the Qur’an offers us no independent historical source for Jesus.
Perhaps the single most egregious historical error found in the Qur’an is its claim that Jesus was not in fact crucified. Not only is there not a single shred of evidence in favor of this remarkable hypothesis, but the evidence supporting Jesus’ crucifixion is, as Johnson says, “overwhelming.” Those of you who are Muslims need to appreciate that no one who is not already a Muslim believes that the historical Jesus was not crucified. The crucifixion of Jesus is recognized even by the sceptical critics in the Jesus Seminar as–to quote Robert Funk–”one indisputable fact.” Indeed, Paula Frederickson, whose book From Jesus to Christ inspired the PBS special by the same name, declares roundly, “The crucifixion is the strongest single fact we have about Jesus.”
So Joseph, an old man, having sex with a 14-16 year old is ok?
KrazyshOt June 30, 2015--
I think your God is the worst thing created by man. This means that I could give a damn if the marriage (meaning at this time same sex) is recognized by your God. Your God appears to be an intolerant asshole. I want nothing to do with THAT
My, My do the hypocrites roar.
Yeah well, these so called Holy Scriptures, seem to take a lot of liberties with age numbers. I wonder if these numbers are more symbolic than literal. What does the number 9 symbolize, as in Aisha the 9 year old bride and Joseph the 90 year old husband?
That's why I brought up Joseph and Mary (who actually lived centuries BEFORE Muhammad did).
originally posted by: OldSchoolContemporary
Aren't many of the above points simply using tradition so to disprove tradition? Which (if any) fulfil criteria by which people may discern their authenticity?
mostly it is just stories that have been repeated so much they've become engrained in our history.
For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
So your "core facts" would be meaningless in this case, especially since the core facts aren't even going to be shared among all the historians.
Now you might disagree with this methodology (although it matches much of your criteria), but its result is, as I said, the only information we have on Muhammad's life.
When Muhammad al-Bukhari began collecting Hadith in the 9th century, he said that he had collected more than 600,000 different "sayings of the prophet", of which only 1.2% could be reasonably verified.