Freddie Gray had spinal surgery a week before the arrest ??

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: UnBreakable

Baltimore has been democratically controlled for the past fifty years

While I agree that's detrimental to the Democrats that BA the D are destructive...


What does it say about the Republican campaign trail in both States for half a century?



Let's not be partisan when over 50 years both Ds & Rs have been POTUS and could force the issue quite easily.


All politicians have failed both States imo.

Agree. No doubt both parties suck. I was just pointing out a parallel with Detroit and it's demise, and I can see the same thing happening in Baltimore.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

To be honest, i don't see what relevence it has either way. If he died because of Police actions whilst in custody, those responsible have in effect murdered him and should be charged as such.

Previous injuries really don't come into it at all, it is simply a matter of black or white here (in terms of the situation, not race!).

originally posted by: NavyDoc


I don't see anyone saying anything racist--or is simply criticizing a person of a certain demographic "racist?"

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega
The fact that I didn't say who I thought said something racist, and you decided it was you seems an indicator that you already think you are .
In the wake of so much incredible police violence in America right now, there's still a thread full of people working hard to exonerate the police any way they can in a situation that Mr. Magoo could see stinks to the stratosphere.

I'm the OP and you can take a look through Posse Comitatus to see that police do not automatically get a warm spot in my heart. This thread is not to defend police, it's about determining if there was more to this story. Gray's injury is one that would take considerable force to a healthy spine/neck. If it was indeed another person who inflicted such injury, they should absolutely be held responsible!


You are the one looking racist though. What Navydoc said has nothing to do with feeling as if he was being accused.

Where is the video of it? When he was injured and taken to the hospital or medical treatment. If this happened at the precinct THERE IS VIDEO. If we don't see the video we can only speculate, but usually if you have video that exonerates you from wrong-doing, YOU SHOW IT RIGHT AWAY. If not, usually means you are hiding something. but that's purely my speculation

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: [post=19290549]Vasa Croe

Well that is odd considering he did not die in the back of the van.....he died a week later.

And sure, if you can repeat that all cops are bad because a few incidents have happened around the country, then I can say this kid was a multiple offence criminal (because he alone was a multiple offence criminal) not basing it on any other incidents at all, but his own past.

Yeah, I #ed up a fact, that's bad in an argument, and you are right to pounce on it. You have to have something actually wrong to criticize.

I can see what your purpose and meaning is in your activity here, and I see that engaging you is useless. Sorry to have wasted your time, and the the taxpayers money that pay your wage.

Why is it ok for you, that police just kill 'multiple offense criminals' instead of having them go through the so-called US justice system? You are ok with police becoming executioners? Just want to clarify your ... position, I guess.

No, you don't have the facts here is the problem, not that you f#ed one up.

I make a pretty nice living with no taxpayer help.

And it isn't ok for me....why is it ok for you that he was a known drug dealer with multiple offences? My position is that he SHOULD have stopped when the police told him to. He SHOULD NOT have been dealing drugs. He WAS breaking the law and had done so numerous times in the past. The police WERE doing their job. There is NO evidence of a beating at this point.

So how is it again that you have jumped to the conclusion of the police killing him intentionally?

Not meant as a racist statement. Just wondering why if all black lives matter, they only seem to matter when it's a white cop involved. That's the only time I see violent protests.

It's even worse if you don't mean it.

But it is racist.

Talking about inner cities, abortions. Because white ladies never get abortions, right? They just have "oopsies" and get a day after pill.

Choosing to have an abortion, for whatever reason, is not the same as being executed by the police because you are a "multiple offense criminal". It's not the same as dying a week later from injuries sustained while in police custody, either.

If due process is not applied, then the law was not applied.

Why does this guy's color matter? I mean, if he's a criminal, put him in jail and give him a trial. White or black or red or yellow or blue. But he needs to LIVE to get to the trial, and if the cops cannot ensure that people in their custody can survive then the system needs an overhaul.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: [post=19290549]Vasa Croe

Well that is odd considering he did not die in the back of the van.....he died a week later.

And sure, if you can repeat that all cops are bad because a few incidents have happened around the country, then I can say this kid was a multiple offence criminal (because he alone was a multiple offence criminal) not basing it on any other incidents at all, but his own past.

Yeah, I #ed up a fact, that's bad in an argument, and you are right to pounce on it. You have to have something actually wrong to criticize.

I can see what your purpose and meaning is in your activity here, and I see that engaging you is useless. Sorry to have wasted your time, and the the taxpayers money that pay your wage.

Why is it ok for you, that police just kill 'multiple offense criminals' instead of having them go through the so-called US justice system? You are ok with police becoming executioners? Just want to clarify your ... position, I guess.

No, you don't have the facts here is the problem, not that you f#ed one up.

I make a pretty nice living with no taxpayer help.

And it isn't ok for me....why is it ok for you that he was a known drug dealer with multiple offences? My position is that he SHOULD have stopped when the police told him to. He SHOULD NOT have been dealing drugs. He WAS breaking the law and had done so numerous times in the past. The police WERE doing their job. There is NO evidence of a beating at this point.

So how is it again that you have jumped to the conclusion of the police killing him intentionally?

So it's ok for people to die in police custody and not get due process and be tried for their crimes?

a reply to: pilgrimOmega

If the story of his injuries is now related to prior surgery and not police brutality, things are going to change and I wonder how those that cause the riots and destruction in Baltimore are going to feel, sadly thugs don't give a crap about what they do to others they are just opportunist.

Now as mr. Gray, we are what we make ourselves to be, you can improve and move on or blame society, government and poverty for your downfalls.

As a mother of two adults, in an area that is high in poverty, one has education the other one didn't, the one with education move to another state looking for opportunities she didn't stay around to feel pity for herself and is now very successful, the other one even without education decided no to be a victim of poverty and found a job in my unemployment ridden small town and is also very successful and not depending on government assistance.

You are what you want to make yourself be, is not excuses.

a reply to: marg6043

This could change the whole issue of how he broke his back.

If the police took him in and indeed he underwent neck and back surgery then his injuries no known by the police could change the story.

That's a little thing we call "THE POINT OF THE THREAD".

Thanks for catching up.

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: NavyDoc

I'm definitely not racist--otherwise I'd hate myself, being of mixed race. However, those who see racism in everything, such as yourself, definitely ARE racist.

That's right doc, Freedom is Slavery, too.

Ah, such brilliance.

originally posted by: 8675309jenny

originally posted by: NavyDoc


I don't see anyone saying anything racist--or is simply criticizing a person of a certain demographic "racist?"

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega
The fact that I didn't say who I thought said something racist, and you decided it was you seems an indicator that you already think you are .
In the wake of so much incredible police violence in America right now, there's still a thread full of people working hard to exonerate the police any way they can in a situation that Mr. Magoo could see stinks to the stratosphere.

I'm the OP and you can take a look through Posse Comitatus to see that police do not automatically get a warm spot in my heart. This thread is not to defend police, it's about determining if there was more to this story. Gray's injury is one that would take considerable force to a healthy spine/neck. If it was indeed another person who inflicted such injury, they should absolutely be held responsible!


You are the one looking racist though. What Navydoc said has nothing to do with feeling as if he was being accused.

I also didn't say that the OP was contributing to the racism. And you got defensive too? I really don't understand WTAF is going on here.

My observation was that there's a lot of language in this thread like thug, multiple offense criminal, abortion, inner cities, etc that most people outside of the USA take as code for racist thought and ideations. Quick, someone say 'urban' for bonus points.

Color shouldn't matter at all, a guy died without due process and people are ok with it. Terrifying.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: Vasa Croe


Have you seen something I haven't? Clearly beaten when exactly? Or was his back broken because they had to take him down since he ran and was a dangerous, multiple offense criminal that had just had back surgery a week before?

All I saw was the dead guy from the back of the van.

Good demonizing/repeating of the 'multiple offense criminal' line, but why are you so comfortable with police acting as judge, jury and executioner and avoiding the due process promised by the Constitution of your country. Why are you so anti-American?

Well that is odd considering he did not die in the back of the van.....he died a week later.

And sure, if you can repeat that all cops are bad because a few incidents have happened around the country, then I can say this kid was a multiple offence criminal (because he alone was a multiple offence criminal) not basing it on any other incidents at all, but his own past.

But see, he's unthinkingly going by the narrative that's been fed to him--the guy MUST have died in the van and he KNOWS the guy died in the van because that's what his ideology tells him must be true, actual facts be damned.

a reply to: UnBreakable

Agreed again.

Didn't wanna deflect to the Rs either.

And your point about comparisons is crucial I think.

How's Chicago on that side of things?
Any correlation there?

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: [post=19290549]Vasa Croe

Well that is odd considering he did not die in the back of the van.....he died a week later.

And sure, if you can repeat that all cops are bad because a few incidents have happened around the country, then I can say this kid was a multiple offence criminal (because he alone was a multiple offence criminal) not basing it on any other incidents at all, but his own past.

Yeah, I #ed up a fact, that's bad in an argument, and you are right to pounce on it. You have to have something actually wrong to criticize.

I can see what your purpose and meaning is in your activity here, and I see that engaging you is useless. Sorry to have wasted your time, and the the taxpayers money that pay your wage.

Why is it ok for you, that police just kill 'multiple offense criminals' instead of having them go through the so-called US justice system? You are ok with police becoming executioners? Just want to clarify your ... position, I guess.

No, you don't have the facts here is the problem, not that you f#ed one up.

I make a pretty nice living with no taxpayer help.

And it isn't ok for me....why is it ok for you that he was a known drug dealer with multiple offences? My position is that he SHOULD have stopped when the police told him to. He SHOULD NOT have been dealing drugs. He WAS breaking the law and had done so numerous times in the past. The police WERE doing their job. There is NO evidence of a beating at this point.

So how is it again that you have jumped to the conclusion of the police killing him intentionally?

So it's ok for people to die in police custody and not get due process and be tried for their crimes?

He didn't die in police custody....he died in a hospital. Sure he should have had a trial and due process, but he chose not to learn from prior arrests, nor give himself time to heal after surgery before going out for some more criminal activity and he paid the price. You think the police KNEW he had a spinal injury and did it on purpose? You think they intentionally killed Gray?

It was his OWN fault for putting himself in that situation....

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: NavyDoc

I'm definitely not racist--otherwise I'd hate myself, being of mixed race. However, those who see racism in everything, such as yourself, definitely ARE racist.

That's right doc, Freedom is Slavery, too.

Ah, such brilliance.

Yeah, like calling me a racist when I have written nothing of the sort.

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega
All I saw was the dead guy from the back of the van.

Good demonizing/repeating of the 'multiple offense criminal' line, but why are you so comfortable with police acting as judge, jury and executioner and avoiding the due process promised by the Constitution of your country. Why are you so anti-American?

Here's the deal, genius--do you mind if I call you "genius?"

Anyhoo, in any walk of life, the history of an individual (if known) often determines the most appropriate way to deal with that person. As an LEO, you better believe that they would take prior arrests and convictions of a person into account in determining how best to deal with said individual. If you have multiple priors, you better believe that you will be approached with a very high amount of skepticism and suspicion--and if you run from police while doing something illegal, all of that will culminate in them doing what is necessary to capture and arrest you. See, in societies, we're not fans of just allowing repeat criminals to run free without at least doing our best to ensure their capture.

The police didn't act like anything other than law enforcement officers--it's their job to enforce laws that other people write and sign into law. I know a few LEOs, one even a detective on a drug task force, who disagree with many of the drug laws that exist on the books. But it's not their job to pick and choose which laws to enforce--they must enforce them all.

The sad fact is that this criminal (yes, it's okay to say that because that's what he was) died after being persued and arrested by police. His prior record played into the need to ensure he was taken into custody. His prior medical history, per the OP's story, is absolutely pertinent in determining exactly what caused his spinal injuries while in police custody.

For you to pretend that this is incorrect shows an ignorant bias on your part. To pretend that people in this thread are in some way displaying "blatant, weak attempts to hide [our] racism" is about the most ignorant thing that I've seen on this thread. You are doing nothing but derailing an otherwise (potentially) pertinent part of Gray's death. If you're truly as much more unbiased than the rest of us (as you imply with your baseless accusations), then it would seem that you'd want to entertain all of the information and get to the real answer as to why he died.

So, do you want the truth, or just want to say that everyone is hiding racism and that the cops murdered this guy without any shred of proof to support your claims?

If it was the fault of the police and there was no prior injury to Gray that caused the normal force of the arrest of a fleeing criminal to contribute to his death, the the police need to be brought up on charges. But, I'd like to know for sure before I act as ignorant as some people are when discussing this case.

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Just a littler research on what is been obviously been obscured by the news of police brutality, and the riots resulting from the injustice.

I agree that if the members of the police involved are at fault they should be prosecuted for brutality, but the truth has to come out first.

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: 8675309jenny

originally posted by: NavyDoc


I don't see anyone saying anything racist--or is simply criticizing a person of a certain demographic "racist?"

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega
The fact that I didn't say who I thought said something racist, and you decided it was you seems an indicator that you already think you are .
In the wake of so much incredible police violence in America right now, there's still a thread full of people working hard to exonerate the police any way they can in a situation that Mr. Magoo could see stinks to the stratosphere.

I'm the OP and you can take a look through Posse Comitatus to see that police do not automatically get a warm spot in my heart. This thread is not to defend police, it's about determining if there was more to this story. Gray's injury is one that would take considerable force to a healthy spine/neck. If it was indeed another person who inflicted such injury, they should absolutely be held responsible!


You are the one looking racist though. What Navydoc said has nothing to do with feeling as if he was being accused.

I also didn't say that the OP was contributing to the racism. And you got defensive too? I really don't understand WTAF is going on here.

My observation was that there's a lot of language in this thread like thug, multiple offense criminal, abortion, inner cities, etc that most people outside of the USA take as code for racist thought and ideations. Quick, someone say 'urban' for bonus points.

Color shouldn't matter at all, a guy died without due process and people are ok with it. Terrifying.

Huh? So thug, and multiple offence criminal are racist terms now? Should I have said african american, judicially challenged individual to be PC or something? That's ridiculous. He was a thug and he was a multiple offence criminal.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: [post=19290549]Vasa Croe

Well that is odd considering he did not die in the back of the van.....he died a week later.

And sure, if you can repeat that all cops are bad because a few incidents have happened around the country, then I can say this kid was a multiple offence criminal (because he alone was a multiple offence criminal) not basing it on any other incidents at all, but his own past.

Yeah, I #ed up a fact, that's bad in an argument, and you are right to pounce on it. You have to have something actually wrong to criticize.

I can see what your purpose and meaning is in your activity here, and I see that engaging you is useless. Sorry to have wasted your time, and the the taxpayers money that pay your wage.

Why is it ok for you, that police just kill 'multiple offense criminals' instead of having them go through the so-called US justice system? You are ok with police becoming executioners? Just want to clarify your ... position, I guess.

No, you don't have the facts here is the problem, not that you f#ed one up.

I make a pretty nice living with no taxpayer help.

And it isn't ok for me....why is it ok for you that he was a known drug dealer with multiple offences? My position is that he SHOULD have stopped when the police told him to. He SHOULD NOT have been dealing drugs. He WAS breaking the law and had done so numerous times in the past. The police WERE doing their job. There is NO evidence of a beating at this point.

So how is it again that you have jumped to the conclusion of the police killing him intentionally?

So it's ok for people to die in police custody and not get due process and be tried for their crimes?

He didn't die in police custody....he died in a hospital. Sure he should have had a trial and due process, but he chose not to learn from prior arrests, nor give himself time to heal after surgery before going out for some more criminal activity and he paid the price. You think the police KNEW he had a spinal injury and did it on purpose? You think they intentionally killed Gray?

It was his OWN fault for putting himself in that situation....

Someday, the way things are going in the good ol' USA, Vasa Croe is gonna be a multiple offense criminal too. Too many jaywalking tickets, maybe an unpaid parking fine. Maybe some delinquent alimony payments.

But # you, you broke the law.

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: [post=19290549]Vasa Croe

Well that is odd considering he did not die in the back of the van.....he died a week later.

And sure, if you can repeat that all cops are bad because a few incidents have happened around the country, then I can say this kid was a multiple offence criminal (because he alone was a multiple offence criminal) not basing it on any other incidents at all, but his own past.

Yeah, I #ed up a fact, that's bad in an argument, and you are right to pounce on it. You have to have something actually wrong to criticize.

I can see what your purpose and meaning is in your activity here, and I see that engaging you is useless. Sorry to have wasted your time, and the the taxpayers money that pay your wage.

Why is it ok for you, that police just kill 'multiple offense criminals' instead of having them go through the so-called US justice system? You are ok with police becoming executioners? Just want to clarify your ... position, I guess.

No, you don't have the facts here is the problem, not that you f#ed one up.

I make a pretty nice living with no taxpayer help.

And it isn't ok for me....why is it ok for you that he was a known drug dealer with multiple offences? My position is that he SHOULD have stopped when the police told him to. He SHOULD NOT have been dealing drugs. He WAS breaking the law and had done so numerous times in the past. The police WERE doing their job. There is NO evidence of a beating at this point.

So how is it again that you have jumped to the conclusion of the police killing him intentionally?

So it's ok for people to die in police custody and not get due process and be tried for their crimes?

He didn't die in police custody....he died in a hospital. Sure he should have had a trial and due process, but he chose not to learn from prior arrests, nor give himself time to heal after surgery before going out for some more criminal activity and he paid the price. You think the police KNEW he had a spinal injury and did it on purpose? You think they intentionally killed Gray?

It was his OWN fault for putting himself in that situation....

Someday, the way things are going in the good ol' USA, Vasa Croe is gonna be a multiple offense criminal too. Too many jaywalking tickets, maybe an unpaid parking fine. Maybe some delinquent alimony payments.

But # you, you broke the law.

Kind of a far cry from dealing drugs, but hey...maybe someday this will happen. Likely I won't run from police when they find me though....the "crimes" you mentioned are not exactly felonies nor considered dangerous. So far the good ole USA is treating this law abiding citizen just fine....shocking right?

I guess you would label these "white people crimes" since you are so hellbent on "thug" and whatever else being racist?