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Freddie Gray had spinal surgery a week before the arrest ??

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posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

same picture? because I cannot clearly see his legs. The only glimpse of that I see is what appears to be a bent/limp knee.

I DO clearly see the bike cop's arm just under his right elbow using a leverage hold. Easy to get someone that can use their legs into a van. Sucks when you get out of said van 30 minutes later with a broken spine...




posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

On his person, as in closed and in his pocket, is not the same as having it out and threatening officers with it, which he didn't. So they couldn't have known he had it until after he was apprehended, and it can't be used as an excuse for the police brutality that led to Freddie Gray's murder.

I'm really getting sick of people making excuses for the murder of "unarmed" black men by inhumane police.

edit on 29-4-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

originally posted by: UnBreakable
a reply to: pilgrimOmega


Yep, blame everyone else but do not take any personal responsibility for one's own predicament. Then you have stories like this girl I saw on the news last night who didn't make excuses.

"It is one of those life moments that changes everything.
Home video shows Shamyra Woods-Elliot of Chester, Delaware County learning that she is the recipient of a Gates Millennium Scholarship, one of only 1,000 given out every year through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
"I'm a very focused and determined person and when I set a goal, I plan on achieving it," Shamyra said."
6abc.com...



I should have asked: Would you tell your son's black girlfriend "If black lives matter why are there line ups at the inner city abortion clinics?"

I should also ask, if it's about taking responsibility, when is America going to address stealing hundreds of thousands of Africans from their home and bringing them to a new land to live as slaves and property?



Ok, I will ask her perspective. I know she was appalled by what happened in Baltimore.

As far as the slaves, I guess it would be appropriate for America, as a whole, since I get a vibe you are turning this into a racial thing, to take responsibility for slavery. If you're talking about reparations, I guess both blacks and whites will have to put something in the kitty since the first slave owner in America was black, and there were thousands of black slave owners.

"First Slave owner in the US was black and more history they don't want you to know
There were thousands of black slave owners in the South."
www.liveleak.com...


Yeah, I'd really love to watch a video of you and your son's girlfriend when you tell her that the first slave owner was black. What's your implication, then? That blacks enslaved themselves willingly and white man just came along and did what they were already doing to each other, which made it ok?

Yes, please discuss this with black people and film the results, i'd love to see it.

This whole thing is racial. I'm not turning it racial.



I'm sure the results wouldn't be accepted well. Most time people can't handle the truth.


Hey I will be more than happy to film my reaction to your film, for posterity and transparency. Also, I am thinking about asking some of my black friends 'if black lives matter, why are there lines at the inner city abortion clinics?' and 'the first slave owner was black', and film all the results.

Also, this article seems to encapsulate my feelings, as well as of others, even if they aren't in this thread.

I am sure this article is biased.

www.dailykos.com... ail=facebook_sf
edit on 29-4-2015 by pilgrimOmega because: added article link



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:31 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


Actually the first part of your statement is incorrect. Johnson was the first "slave" owner in the US. He was declared a free man and was a colonist of the first 13 colonies. His indentured servant, John Casor, ran away. Johnson went to court to get him back and the court ruled him a "slave" with life servitude. As such he was the very first person ever deemed a slave, and was a slave to a the very first slave owner, Johnson, who was also a black man.

Oh...ETA...I am no slave apologist nor racist in any way. I just support facts and research for the most part.


Which part is incorrect? Anthony Johnson died in 1670, over one hundred years before there was a US so he couldn't have been "the first slave owner in the US." The argument that Johnson was the first "slave" owning colonist because of Casor's lifetime indenture is reasonable enough BUT if that's the basis we're using for the determination, then Hugh Gwyn is actually the first slave owning colonist and John Punch, not John Casor, is the first slave. John Punch ran away from Gwyn's Virginia plantation in 1640 and was sentenced to lifetime servitude. This was 13 years before Castor.

In fact, IIRC, even Punch shouldn't be considered the first "slave" (by that criteria) in the colonies since there were other people with lifetime indentures in the colonies prior to 1640.

As for the rest of what I said in the first part of my statement — I was drawing a distinction between lifetime indenture and chattel slavery as you clearly were doing by putting slave in quotes.


Oh...ETA...I am no slave apologist nor racist in any way. I just support facts and research for the most part.


I never said you were. I will however say that you are wrong and so is UnBreakable.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: NavyDoc

Right, we don't know anything about any prior surgery except for some hearsay apologetic BS meant to relieve obvious police culpability.

Freddie Gray could walk one day and was on life support the next. He was dead days later, due to a severed spinal cord that he suffered while in police custody.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:46 AM
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originally posted by: pilgrimOmega

Nope...for the "anonymous internet bully" crap.

Ok...on to your citations:

First one: Booker Report:



METHODOLOGY
The dependent variable used in each of the
analyses was an offender’s total sentence length, in
months, which included alternatives to
imprisonment.14 Probationary sentences without
conditions of confinement are included as sentences of
zero months. The independent variables were:
 The presumptive sentence, which is the bottom of
the applicable sentencing guideline range that
applies in a case (i.e., the minimum sentence, in
months, to which the offender was subject under
the sentencing guidelines, taking into account all
guideline, statutory, and mandatory minimum
provisions);15
 Type of offense committed (violent, sexual,
pornography, drug trafficking, white collar,
immigration, or other);16
 Whether a statutory mandatory minimum
punishment was applied at sentencing;17
 Whether the court determined that a sentence
outside the applicable sentencing guideline range
was warranted;18
 Detention status (whether the offender had been
released on bail prior to sentencing);
 Whether the offender pleaded guilty;
 Race of the offender paired with the gender of the
offender;
 Citizenship of the offender (whether the offender
was a United States citizen);
 Educational level of the offender; and
 Age of the offender.


and



In its 2010 report, the Commission also noted
that results from the analysis must be taken with
caution. Multivariate regression analysis is a tool
commonly used by social scientists, as well as in a
variety of legal contexts, to examine the relationship
between multiple factors, 3 and it has its limitations.
For example, one or more key factors which could
affect the analysis may have been omitted from the
methodologies used because a particular factor is
unknown, or because data about it is not readily
available in the Commission’s datasets. For example,
judges may consider potentially relevant factors
available to them in a presentence report, such as an
offender’s violent criminal conduct or long
employment history. However, the Commission does
not routinely extract that information from the
sentencing documents it receives. Such factors,
therefore, are not included in the Commission’s
datafile, and therefore are not controlled for in this
analysis.


Both quoted paragraphs from the report show that all factors were not given weight in the analysis. It was biased from the start to show the outcome they wanted. If you don't take a criminals past into account, prior records and whatnot, then sure one is going to trump the other. If they wanted a fair report they could have taken all first time offenders for the same offence and same plea and same age and blah blah blah and made it to show bias. This is a scatter shot approach with very unclear lines drawn.

You second study: sentencing project:

It states in one of the key findings areas:



· Whites are more likely to hire a private attorney than Latinos or blacks, and
therefore receive a less severe sentence.


So that alone will be the cause for a major difference in the races.

And the UK article really has no relevance to the US justice system so I did not read it.

Not that these are definitive bias, but they poke holes in the actual articles that use these studies and only use bits and pieces without the entire picture.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:49 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

Right, we don't know anything about any prior surgery except for some hearsay apologetic BS meant to relieve obvious police culpability.

Freddie Gray could walk one day and was on life support the next. He was dead days later, due to a severed spinal cord that he suffered while in police custody.



And that injury could have started before he police even laid hands upon him. We've seen this dynamic before--racist race baiters and criminals starting a riot and violence based on a premise that later turns up to be false. How many times does the story have to play out before people start thinking for themselves?



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:52 AM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

Not sure I follow. Johnson did die in 1670, but came to Virginia in the 1620's. I used the term "slave" in quotes because Casor was the very first legally recognized slave in the US, stemming from the court case in 1655, while Johnson was still alive. The others before him were indentured servants. Sure it may just be semantics, but this was the first case in which the term was used and it was a black slave owner.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:56 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

That's not the same a wielding or brandishing a weapon, where the safety of the police is at issue. There's no way that they could have known about a knife in his pocket while he was running away from them. A fleeing man's murder is NOT justified by a closed gravity knife clipped to his pocket, that wasn't found on his person until after he had been apprehended!


But Gray's initial arrest may not have happened if not for an antiquated provision of Baltimore's municipal code, which prohibits the possession of a "switchblade" knife. Gray had allegedly been running from the police, for reasons that still aren't clear, and after a brief chase, officers found the knife clipped to his pocket in a closed position — he was not alleged to have brandished the knife or threatened anyone with it.

The arrest charge recalls an issue we've been covering in New York City for months — the NYPD's enforcement of a half-century old law against so-called "gravity knives." The law was the subject of a lengthy investigation we published last year which found as many as 60,000 questionable arrests in ten years, making the statute one of the top-ten most-prosecuted crimes in New York City.

While news reports have described the knife Gray was carrying as a "switchblade," the actual police report (see charging documents at bottom of page) describes it as a "spring assisted, one hand opening knife," which has become among the most common on the market in recent years. blogs.villagevoice.com...


So, it wasn't a switch blade after all!



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:58 AM
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Whites are more likely to be able to afford a lawyer than blacks and latinos. let's not address why, though.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 11:58 AM
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originally posted by: Neutrality
a reply to: Vasa Croe

same picture? because I cannot clearly see his legs. The only glimpse of that I see is what appears to be a bent/limp knee.

I DO clearly see the bike cop's arm just under his right elbow using a leverage hold. Easy to get someone that can use their legs into a van. Sucks when you get out of said van 30 minutes later with a broken spine...


Oh...ok.... over to the nearest adult in your office and lift them two feet over your head with your arms by your side real quick and let me know how it goes. Remember, you have to lift them by THEIR arms, from behind, and continue to keep YOUR arms below shoulder level as the pic demonstrates.

Oh, not to mention the fact that if the spine was severed at this point, he would not be able to turn his head, nor would his back be upright....he would be slumped over completely.

Your argument is REALLY silly at this point if you can't tell he is standing there on his own power.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:00 PM
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originally posted by: pilgrimOmega
Whites are more likely to be able to afford a lawyer than blacks and latinos. let's not address why, though.


Yes, by all means let's bring up the racial arguments in society now too. Because EVERYONE is against anyone who isn't white......



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:02 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

Right, we don't know anything about any prior surgery except for some hearsay apologetic BS meant to relieve obvious police culpability.

Freddie Gray could walk one day and was on life support the next. He was dead days later, due to a severed spinal cord that he suffered while in police custody.



And that injury could have started before he police even laid hands upon him. We've seen this dynamic before--racist race baiters and criminals starting a riot and violence based on a premise that later turns up to be false. How many times does the story have to play out before people start thinking for themselves?


Right! And Eric Gardner caused his own death because he was fat! BS! The police tackled Freddie Gray to the ground when he fled from them!


In what has become a much-too-familiar pattern, there are questions about how Gray died and whether the officers who arrested him used excessive force, causing the neck injury that severed his spinal cord and, apparently, killed him.

Bystander video taken during Gray's arrest shows that he was conscious and apparently not severely injured when he was loaded into a police van on April 12. Gray, 25, later died of a neck injury. The circumstances suggest that Gray's transportation may have involved a so-called "nickel ride," in which officers deliberately drive at high speeds and suddenly stop and start, a technique used to punish arrested suspects and which has been known to sometimes cause serious injury.


Freddie Gray didn't sever his own spinal cord! The cops did it, one way or the other, it doesn't matter when, they're the one's responsible for his murder, no one else!


edit on 29-4-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:06 PM
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a reply to: pilgrimOmega

bull #




A New York Times article from 1994 estimates O.J. Simpson's lawyer fees at approximately 5 million dollars



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:13 PM
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a reply to: windword




Freddie Gray didn't sever his own spinal cord! The cops did it, one way or the other, it doesn't matter when, they're the one's responsible for his murder, no one else!


proof of this? You shouldn't rush to judgment. Best to wait and let the findings come out. he was not the only person in the van so you have a witness.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:16 PM
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originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

Right, we don't know anything about any prior surgery except for some hearsay apologetic BS meant to relieve obvious police culpability.

Freddie Gray could walk one day and was on life support the next. He was dead days later, due to a severed spinal cord that he suffered while in police custody.



And that injury could have started before he police even laid hands upon him. We've seen this dynamic before--racist race baiters and criminals starting a riot and violence based on a premise that later turns up to be false. How many times does the story have to play out before people start thinking for themselves?


Right! And Eric Gardnew cause his own death because he was fat! BS! The police tackled Freddie Gray to the ground when he fled from them!


In what has become a much-too-familiar pattern, there are questions about how Gray died and whether the officers who arrested him used excessive force, causing the neck injury that severed his spinal cord and, apparently, killed him.

Bystander video taken during Gray's arrest shows that he was conscious and apparently not severely injured when he was loaded into a police van on April 12. Gray, 25, later died of a neck injury. The circumstances suggest that Gray's transportation may have involved a so-called "nickel ride," in which officers deliberately drive at high speeds and suddenly stop and start, a technique used to punish arrested suspects and which has been known to sometimes cause serious injury.


Freddie Gray didn't sever his own spinal cord! The cops did it, one way or the other, it doesn't matter when, they're the one's responsible for his murder, no one else!



Typical liberal logic--"that thing over there was wrong so this one must have been too."

First of all, you obviously do not understand cervical fusions and resultant instability. If he had recent surgery and if he was out committing crimes 1-2 weeks after the surgery without his brace on, then he could have reduced the fusion and created instability. At that point, anything could have caused the shifting of the vertebrae and the evulsion--police brutality, reasonable force, sneezing, a bumpy ride, a fight with another prisoner in the back, etc--anything. IF he had surgery of his cervical spine a week before his demise could have not been a result of police brutality at all. That is a very strong possibility. And yes, if you go out an commit crimes a few weeks after surgery and suffer when arrested, a large portion of the responsibility lies with you and your poor decision making processes.

Another thing that points out your lack of knowledge where anatomy and physiology is concerned, is that he presented to the hospital unable to breathe or talk. This indicates a high spinal lesion. Remember from your anatomy and physiology class: "C3,4,5 keeps the diaphragm alive." He could not have had the lesion before he got into the van because he was moving his arms (C5,6,7,8) and moving his head (C5,6) and his legs (L4,5, S1). If he had an 80% evulsion at the level that affected his breathing, he would have been nothing more than a rag doll in the video.

Is it possible that the tackle knocked his fusion loose and he evulsed later, during the van ride? Of course. However, how could the cops be expected to know he had recent surgery when he resisted arrest? If he had recent surgery, then the onus of this unfortunate incident is on him. If he did not, then the onus is on the police as he must have had a severe injury--extremely severe--while under their care.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: SkipperJohn

PFFFT! You think a shackled Freddie Gray, in the back of a police van, could cause his own spine to sever. Puhleese! Don't insult my intelligence.



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:23 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc




However, how could the cops be expected to know he had recent surgery when he resisted arrest?


The cops aren't expected to know anything, except to get medical treatment to their own victims, regardless of their crimes!

Fact: Freddie Gray was able to and did run from the police.

Fact: The police tackled him to the ground.

Fact: Freddie Gray died of a severed spine suffered while in the custody of, and at the hand of the police.

Fact: Medical treatment was negligently and possible fatally, delayed.


edit on 29-4-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:23 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

Right, we don't know anything about any prior surgery except for some hearsay apologetic BS meant to relieve obvious police culpability.

Freddie Gray could walk one day and was on life support the next. He was dead days later, due to a severed spinal cord that he suffered while in police custody.



And that injury could have started before he police even laid hands upon him. We've seen this dynamic before--racist race baiters and criminals starting a riot and violence based on a premise that later turns up to be false. How many times does the story have to play out before people start thinking for themselves?


Right! And Eric Gardnew cause his own death because he was fat! BS! The police tackled Freddie Gray to the ground when he fled from them!


In what has become a much-too-familiar pattern, there are questions about how Gray died and whether the officers who arrested him used excessive force, causing the neck injury that severed his spinal cord and, apparently, killed him.

Bystander video taken during Gray's arrest shows that he was conscious and apparently not severely injured when he was loaded into a police van on April 12. Gray, 25, later died of a neck injury. The circumstances suggest that Gray's transportation may have involved a so-called "nickel ride," in which officers deliberately drive at high speeds and suddenly stop and start, a technique used to punish arrested suspects and which has been known to sometimes cause serious injury.


Freddie Gray didn't sever his own spinal cord! The cops did it, one way or the other, it doesn't matter when, they're the one's responsible for his murder, no one else!



Typical liberal logic--"that thing over there was wrong so this one must have been too."

First of all, you obviously do not understand cervical fusions and resultant instability. If he had recent surgery and if he was out committing crimes 1-2 weeks after the surgery without his brace on, then he could have reduced the fusion and created instability. At that point, anything could have caused the shifting of the vertebrae and the evulsion--police brutality, reasonable force, sneezing, a bumpy ride, a fight with another prisoner in the back, etc--anything. IF he had surgery of his cervical spine a week before his demise could have not been a result of police brutality at all. That is a very strong possibility. And yes, if you go out an commit crimes a few weeks after surgery and suffer when arrested, a large portion of the responsibility lies with you and your poor decision making processes.

Another thing that points out your lack of knowledge where anatomy and physiology is concerned, is that he presented to the hospital unable to breathe or talk. This indicates a high spinal lesion. Remember from your anatomy and physiology class: "C3,4,5 keeps the diaphragm alive." He could not have had the lesion before he got into the van because he was moving his arms (C5,6,7,8) and moving his head (C5,6) and his legs (L4,5, S1). If he had an 80% evulsion at the level that affected his breathing, he would have been nothing more than a rag doll in the video.

Is it possible that the tackle knocked his fusion loose and he evulsed later, during the van ride? Of course. However, how could the cops be expected to know he had recent surgery when he resisted arrest? If he had recent surgery, then the onus of this unfortunate incident is on him. If he did not, then the onus is on the police as he must have had a severe injury--extremely severe--while under their care.


Quit arguing with all your medical knowledge and stuff...can't you see this is a case of media against you, a trained professional in the field?



posted on Apr, 29 2015 @ 12:31 PM
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a reply to: windword




Fact: Freddie Gray was able to and did run from the police.

Fact: The police tackled him to the ground.


sounds like if he DID have major surgery like that, then that alone could have caused it......

And tackling a fleeing supsect is not police brutality or unreasonable force......

Sounds like to me again, people jumped on a band wagon w out knowing all the facts.......

More race baiting by the media and division , causing riots and more loss of property and harm to people.....

Sounds like to me those involved including the media should be charged with criminal negligence......




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