Bali nine duo executed by firing squad

originally posted by: symphonyofblase
a reply to: Kryties

Lol, are you really quoting mass media propaganda to try to bolster your case?
I don't care what the sydney morning herald has to say.
I don't care what tony "broken every election promise" abbott says about them.

Do you have any actual intelligent response to the 3 points made, or are you merely attacking it for being "mass media propaganda" and hoping I don't notice the deflection?

Do you realise, that whilst you sit here and hysterically

Hysterically? LOL. Nice try at derailing and trolling.

try to make the rest of us see what it is that only you can see, that Australia is also breaking international law? Our unlawful detainment and torture of asylum seekers in our concentration camps violates almost every single Article in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

I never said they weren't breaking international law, but seeing as this thread is about the Indonesian executions I am failing to see how Australias treatment of refugees has anything to do with it. Please stay on topic and stop deflecting.

There are much bigger issues in the world right now,

Whoopdy doo. They are for different threads, please discuss them there and STAY ON TOPIC.

and Australia is hypocritical for pointing the finger at Indonesia, when we break the same laws. Maybe if you would wake up to these things you wouldn't be sitting there pointing your finger also.

So I can't point my finger at two, completely separate issues? I have to drop the one you don't like and focus on another, against the topic of the thread?

STAY ON TOPIC PLEASE. This topic is about the Indonesian executions, not whatever the hell you want it to be.

a reply to: Kryties

You're not my real dad.

originally posted by: symphonyofblase
a reply to: Kryties

Do you realise, that whilst you sit here and hysterically try to make the rest of us see what it is that only you can see, that Australia is also breaking international law? Our unlawful detainment and torture of asylum seekers in our concentration camps violates almost every single Article in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

You can disapprove of both acts without having to discard the other.

There are much bigger issues in the world right now, and Australia is hypocritical for pointing the finger at Indonesia, when we break the same laws.

The first ten words of this sentence were said in a United Nations discussions about the right of gay people to live. 'Bigger things in the world' isn't really an excuse for anything really. I mean let me put it this way, you've 'woken up' to these things and how many of them have you stopped since last Friday? If the answer is more than zero I'll be pretty shocked.

Sorry if I sound mean or callous btw, I just can't word it any better. I fail to see the practical call to action in the point you're making. It just seems like stealth apathy.

originally posted by: Pinke

'Bigger things in the world' isn't really an excuse for anything really. I mean let me put it this way, you've 'woken up' to these things and how many of them have you stopped since last Friday? If the answer is more than zero I'll be pretty shocked.

Sorry if I sound mean or callous btw, I just can't word it any better. I fail to see the practical call to action in the point you're making. It just seems like stealth apathy.

Not at all. I read through this thread and it's exactly the way I view the OP's arguments also.
Neither of these things are going to change anytime soon, and certainly not by creating a thread on ATS about it.

originally posted by: symphonyofblase

Neither of these things are going to change anytime soon, and certainly not by creating a thread on ATS about it.

So don't try?

How very defeatist of you.

If you don't like the topic there's a simple solution - LEAVE.

From: smh.com.au...

Chan and Sukumaran execution 'illegal', but Indonesia ignores Australia again

The execution of Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran was illegal under international law according to high-level advice provided to Julie Bishop, but Australia's request that Indonesia submit to the judgment of the International Court of Justice on the matter was ignored.

The Australian ambassador asked Indonesia's consent on March 10 to explore the issue before the international court, but the Foreign Minister revealed yesterday she still has not had a reply.

The Australian government had strong legal advice by ANU academic Don Rothwell and Sydney barrister Chris Ward that the men's execution was illegal under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which Indonesia signed in 2006.

Under that treaty, the death sentence can only be imposed for "the most serious crimes".

"Drug trafficking does not constitute such a crime when it involves no prima facie harm or violence to another person," according to legal safeguards added to the treaty in 1984, according to the advice commissioned for Chan and Sukumaran's legal team and provided to Ms Bishop.

"We concede that one of the possible consequences of the trafficking of drugs is self-abuse of the drug, possibly resulting in death. However, this is an event which is considerably removed from the actual trafficking of the drugs and ultimately involves an act of self-choice by the drug user."

The fact that Chan and Sukumaran were conspiring to take the drugs from Thailand to Australia, with only a stop-over in Bali, meant the possibility of harm to Indonesians from their crime was remote. For these reasons, their crime could not be considered in the "most serious" category.

The legal advice also suggested that aspects of Indonesia's behaviour in the lead-up to the executions represented "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" - another violation of the covenant.

Professor Rothwell and Dr Ward pointed out that execution by way of firing squad, the men's treatment over 10 years in jail, the Attorney-General H.M. Prasetyo's decision to execute prisoners in large groups "described by Indonesia as batches, in the presence of each other and before a massed group of executioners", and repeated comments in the lead-up that the deaths were "imminent", "will not be delayed", may be "this week", and that "on-going legal processes would not be respected" were all cruel and inhuman.

Ms Bishop was handed the advice earlier this year, but she had to wait until all Indonesia's domestic legal processes were complete before seeking Indonesia's consent to argue the case before the International Court of Justice, the judicial arm of the United Nations.

While Indonesia is a member of the court, it does not recognise its "compulsory jurisdiction", meaning it must agree to the case being heard there.

Ms Bishop confirmed on Friday that ambassador Paul Grigson had requested of the Indonesian foreign ministry six weeks ago that it submit to that jurisdiction. However, like many other requests made by Australia in the lead up to the executions, it was met with silence.

"Indonesia has not responded to our request.," Ms Bishop said on Friday.

However, Professor Rothwell told Fairfax Media Australia could continue to push Indonesia on the case. A successful judgment would create a precedent that could prevent Australia's neighbour from carrying out the death penalty on drug traffickers in future.

More than 50 people are set to be executed for drug crimes in Indonesia coming months after president Joko Widodo cracked down.

Ms Bishop would not comment on whether she would press ahead with the request for a court hearing, saying only: "Indonesian consent would be required and that has not been forthcoming".

a reply to: Kryties

You accuse everyone who debates your points as being tiresome and repeating the same old tired line...and yet you are engaged in your own frenzied beating of your own dead horse. Yeah, we get it that you think this was a barbaric, illegal action against these poor, victimized "rehabilitated" men who, just because there was NOTHING ELSE TO DO in an Indonesian prison (unlike American ones where you can get a law degree and/or run a crime cartel out of your cell) except resign yourself to the inevitable and try to put on a good face did do just that...

In this particular case, in this particular country, they received "justice." The rules in Indonesia are pretty self-explanatory. If you're caught smuggling drugs, you die.

As a great man once said, "Resenting the law of gravity won’t keep a person from falling if he steps off a cliff." The reality here is there is a law against smuggling drugs in Indonesia, the consequences are the death penalty. These men were not ignorant of the risks...they chose to chance them. They got caught. It really doesn't matter a fig if they changed their behavior after they were caught...they suffered the consequences of their actions...actions taken of their own free will. Hard to cry foul with that...

And if MY re-iteration is tiresome, so be it. I'm not sure you're entitled, once you start a thread, to demand people agree with you or stop posting. Your reiterations will only invite the other sides' reiteration.

I think we get that you believe what happened was unjust...it's just as clear that the government of Indonesia believes what they did was just.

And okay, I'm done...because the whole thread (including you) is becoming tiresome.

originally posted by: Jansy
a reply to: Kryties

You accuse everyone who debates your points of being tiresome and repeating the same old tired line...and yet you are engaged in your own frenzied beating of your own dead horse.

Only in response to those other posters - what am I supposed to do, not defend my arguments?

Yeah, we get it that you think this was a barbaric, illegal action against these poor, victimized "rehabilitated" men who, just because there was NOTHING ELSE TO DO in an Indonesian prison (unlike American ones where you can get a law degree and/or run a crime cartel out of your cell) except resign yourself to the inevitable and try to put on a good face.

Thank you for your OPINION on the reason the men chose to rehabilitate. Unfortunately, you are wrong. Apparently starting and running computer, art, religion and drug rehab classes as well as setting up a silver shop and having repairs made at the prison such as new hot water heaters for the women's bathrooms amongst many other accomplishments - apparently all this falls under your delusional category of "nothing else to do" and therefore they can't have rehabilitated.

At least get your facts straight, is that too much to ask?

In this particular case, in this particular country, they received "justice." The rules in Indonesia are pretty self-explanatory. If you're caught smuggling drugs, you die.

Still flogging the disproven, dead horse I see - how very hypocritical of you.

As a great man once said, "Resenting the law of gravity won’t keep a person from falling if he steps off a cliff." The reality here is there is a law against smuggling drugs in Indonesia, the consequences are the death penalty.

Which is in clear contravention of international law, as has been proven multiple times. Indonesia needs to be held accountable for this.

And if MY re-iteration is tiresome, so be it. I'm not sure you're entitled, once you start a thread, to demand people agree with you or stop posting. Your reiterations will only invite the other sides' reiteration.

And yet when I do "retaliate" with facts and proof I am accused of "flogging a dead horse" and "repeating myself". It makes one think people are trying to silence me by twisting my words, deflecting and trying to trip me up - just like YOU are now.

I think we get that you believe what happened was unjust...it's just as clear that the government of Indonesia believes what they did was just.

And okay, I'm done...because the whole thread (including you) is becoming tiresome.

Bye. Nobody made you stay, it's my thread not yours - if you don't like the subject matter then leave! It's not rocket science....

I think after 10 years of being locked up then shot, that should be called torture!!!

Sad world we live in..... it's not justice! Also here in the US the death penalty in reality is torture.

If your locked up for so many years and being told you might be executed, that is torture.

Just plain and simple torture.... torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental.

Why is it that focus is only these two men? I've heard nothing about who the other 6 were or their stories. Genuinely curious.

originally posted by: Jansy
In this particular case, in this particular country, they received "justice." The rules in Indonesia are pretty self-explanatory. If you're caught smuggling drugs, you die.

They must have agreed with the law, otherwise why smuggle drugs in a country where such a law exists? They could have smuggled drugs in a country that does not have the death penalty for drug smuggling!

I think we get that you believe what happened was unjust...it's just as clear that the government of Indonesia believes what they did was just.

It is Indonesia that decides the law in Indonesia, not the UN, not someone in another country, not some "international law" but Indonesia. No matter how much someone else stamps their little feet and has a hissy fit it will make no difference in Indonesia.

But some people refuse to accept reality, they prefer a fantasy world where convicted, admitted drug smugglers are some sort of "hero" not low life scum.

The first and last statement is what i focus upon here .

Article 10 requires anyone deprived of liberty to be treated with dignity and humanity.[32] This applies not just to prisoners, but also to those detained for immigration purposes or psychiatric care.[33] The right complements the Article 7 prohibition on torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.[33] The article also imposes specific obligations around criminal justice, requiring prisoners in pretrial detention to be separated from convicted prisoners, and children to be separated from adults.[34] It requires prisons to be focused on reform and rehabilitation rather than punishment.[35]

But wait , there is more .

Article 6 of the Covenant recognises the individual's "inherent right to life" and requires it to be protected by law.[18] It is a "supreme right" from which no derogation can be permitted, and must be interpreted widely.[19] It therefore requires parties to take positive measures to reduce infant mortality and increase life expectancy, as well as forbidding arbitrary killings by security forces.[19]

While Article 6 does not prohibit the death penalty, it restricts its application to the "most serious crimes"[20] and forbids it to be used on children and pregnant women[21] or in a manner contrary to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[22] The UN Human Rights Committee interprets the Article as "strongly suggest[ing] that abolition is desirable",[19] and regards any progress towards abolition of the death penalty as advancing this right.[19] The Second Optional Protocol commits its signatories to the abolition of the death penalty within their borders.

Indonesia is a signatory .

en.wikipedia.org...

The Indonesian Human Rights Commission has questioned the morality and
professionalism of the Indonesian judicial system, arguing that the pro-death penalty
statements issued by a corrupt judiciary can be very dangerous34. Particularly noteworthy
is the current attitude of many ordinary Indonesians who plead for a more liberal use of
the death penalty in response to endemic corruption and murder throughout the country.

Some interesting reading ,

www.abc.net.au...

But indonesia protests the execution overseas of its own citizens . and so it should because

www.bbc.com...

In April 2014, the government paid $1.8m (£1m) to secure the commutation of a death sentence against another Indonesian domestic worker in Saudi Arabia, who had been convicted of the murder of her employer. As in Ms Zainab's case, the woman was said to have acted in self-defence.

The death penalty is wrong . They are kind of hypocritical . no

originally posted by: hutch622
While Article 6 does not prohibit the death penalty, it restricts its application to the "most serious crimes

As Indonesia considers drug smuggling a "most serious crime" there is no restriction applying it to these 2.

What it boils down to is 2 lowlife's wanted easy money, so decided to smuggle drugs in a country where the penalty fro drug smuggling is death. They got caught, and were sentenced as per Indonesian law, and were executed. No one else is to blame, it was all their own fault. If they had told the truth instead of lying for years they would probably be still alive in jail serving a life sentence. All their own fault.

a reply to: hellobruce

According to reports, Australian officials were given strong legal advice by ANU academic Don Rothwell and Sydney barrister Chris Ward the men's execution were illegal under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
The treaty, which was signed by Indonesia in 2006, states the death penalty can only be given for 'the most serious crimes'.

Advice provided to Ms Bishop and the Australian government reportedly stated: 'Drug trafficking does not constitute such a crime when it involves no prima facie harm or violence to another person.'
The legal advice also suggested Indonesia's behaviour before the executions represented 'cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment' - another violation of the deal.

www.dailymail.co.uk... nd-Indonesia.html

See what i did there , i provided a LINK . The only link you have provided so far was edited to suit your arguement . Now if you can provide a link about their lying it would be much appreciated .

originally posted by: hutch622
Now if you can provide a link about their lying it would be much appreciated .

You really do not know much about these 2 scumbags!

Throughout his trial, Chan remained silent.[34] During his final plea, reading from a two-page statement, Chan commented:[34][35] "I didn't say anything in court because if I did, I'd be lying. The truth is, I know nothing. A lot of lies have been said against me, but the true reality is I'm not what people put me out to be. I've never threatened anybody in my life. The outcome I wish, of course, and my family is that you find that you would release me, for I had nothing to participate in this......Chan's statement before the Denpasar District Court in his final plea of innocence, 13 February 2006.

Chan also defended his refusal to cooperate with authorities during the investigation and his trial - something prosecutors had highlighted in seeking a death sentence.

www.theage.com.au...
en.wikipedia.org...

He also stated

"I apologise to the Indonesian people, I also apologise to my family and I realise that my actions have brought shame and suffering to my whole family. If I am pardoned..

So you can clearly see he lied. But somehow you refuse to accept these facts!

However, in his last statement to the court, delivered after the prosecution called its last witness, Sukumaran denied meeting any of the mules. He said he came to Bali alone on holiday and met Nguyen on the plane on the way over. He went out drinking with him, Chen, Norman and Chan while in Bali. He claimed not to know who owned the drug materials and personal property seized at the Melasti Hotel, where he accompanied Nguyen, Chen and Norman while they checked in to their room

www.theage.com.au...

a reply to: hutch622

Hutchy....Please Do Not confuse the Muslim culture of "Blood Money" with anything to do with international law or any other United Nations rubbish.
It is well ingrained in the Islam culture to pay for someone's freedom.
Indonesia is a Muslim country, Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country, this stuff is Normal.....Like "Honour killings" which are far more heinous than killing drug smugglers.

islam.about.com...

a reply to: hellobruce

lying for years

Once again you distort the truth for your own agenda .

originally posted by: hutch622
Once again you distort the truth for your own agenda .

You are the one lying here, I showed that the 2 scumbags lied, but you refuse to accept that fact!

a reply to: hellobruce

Yes but you said for years and that is just not true .

a reply to: gort51

Yes i realise that gort . But the fact remains that indonesia is actively trying to get 260ish of their own people off the death penalty for smuggling drugs .