Bali nine duo executed by firing squad

From: www.news.com.au...

Fellow death row prisoner Lindsay Sandiford has expressed her heartfelt condolences to the families of the executed men.

The British grandmother, who is also facing death by firing squad for drugs offences in Indonesia, issued a statement after eight prisoners were executed.

“I am deeply saddened to learn that Myuran Sukumaran and my dear friend Andrew Chan have been executed today. I would like to send my deepest condolences to their families and loved ones,” she wrote.

“Many things have been said about whether Andrew and Myuran deserved to die for their crimes. “I didn’t know those men at the time they committed those crimes 10 years ago. What I can say is that the Andrew and Myuran I knew were men who did good and touched the lives of a great many people, including myself.

“Andrew in particular was a close friend and confidante to me during my time at Kerobokan prison. He counselled and helped me through exceptionally difficult times after I was sentenced to death in 2013.

“The men shot dead today were reformed men — good men who transformed the lives of people around them. Their senseless, brutal deaths leave the world a poorer place.”

originally posted by: Kryties
a reply to: uncommitted

From: www.un.org...

Statement

Statement attributable to the Spokesman for the Secretary-General on announcement of executions in Indonesia

New York, 25 April 2015

The Secretary-General appeals to the Government of Indonesia to refrain from carrying out the execution, as announced, of ten prisoners on death row for alleged drug-related crimes.

Under international law, if the death penalty is to be used at all, it should only be imposed for the most serious crimes, namely those involving intentional killing, and only with appropriate safeguards. Drug-related offenses generally are not considered to fall under the category of “most serious crimes”.

Recalling that the United Nations opposes the death penalty in all circumstances, the Secretary-General urges President Joko Widodo to urgently consider declaring a moratorium on capital punishment in Indonesia, with a view toward abolition.

Right, thank you for that. I'm now going to piss you off. The above says 'drugs related offences are generally not considered to fall under the category of “most serious crimes"'. So that's no clear definition. It means sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't? Dealing with a gram is not 'most serious', but a kilo is? (edit to add, this is a rhetorical question, it just says generally they aren't, which means sometimes they are, end of edit) Please don't take this as me attempting to justify what happened, but it's fairly loose under anyone's definition if you ask me.

a reply to: uncommitted

Did you also read the entire 3 post link I provided?

www.anu.edu.au...

a reply to: Kryties

I'm not sure exactly what kind of a discussion you were expecting. Very rarely do you get measured, civil discourse about capital punishment...emotions run high on both sides. I think you were probably hoping that everyone would agree with you...how disgraceful, how horrendous to execute these criminals...

Yeah, the two Australians were totally rehabilitated...turned into model members of society. You have to wonder, though, what they'd be doing NOW had they not been caught and imprisoned. Do you think Mr. Chan would be teaching the disadvantaged computer skills?? Not hardly, they'd still be brokering death to line their own pockets.

As far as I'm concerned, they are as barbaric as they come...and what they were attempting was beyond disgraceful.

I am not completely against the death penalty (yeah, I know I'm SUCH a barbarian)...because I think there are some crimes that are so egregious that no matter how "rehabilitated" a person becomes, their crime warrants the ultimate punishment. I don't know, however, if I am sold on execution for drug runners. They should serve their life sentences on some desolate rock in the middle of the ocean (the Farallon Islands are a nice place for scum like these guys), with absolutely no hope of parole. (Or escape.)

On the other hand, as inhumane as the government of Indonesia appears to be, it's not like these guys didn't know what would happen to them if they were caught. And I am a firm believer in the philosophy of, If You Don't Want To Suffer the Consequences, Don't Commit the Crime.

Just avoid Indonesian as a tourist destination.

Make them PAY by having NO MONEY.

Why on earth people go there is beyond me with all this happening.

DEPRIVE them of MONEY.

It is the ONLY way to get them to CHANGE. TURN THEM INTO A BLACK SPOT, BOYCOTT.

originally posted by: bullcat
Just avoid Indonesian as a tourist destination.

Make them PAY by having NO MONEY.

Why on earth people go there is beyond me with all this happening.

DEPRIVE them of MONEY.

It is the ONLY way to get them to CHANGE. TURN THEM INTO A BLACK SPOT, BOYCOTT.

Or peeps could just stop smuggling smack there.

originally posted by: skalla

originally posted by: bullcat
Just avoid Indonesian as a tourist destination.

Make them PAY by having NO MONEY.

Why on earth people go there is beyond me with all this happening.

DEPRIVE them of MONEY.

It is the ONLY way to get them to CHANGE. TURN THEM INTO A BLACK SPOT, BOYCOTT.

Or peeps could just stop smuggling smack there.

Sometimes people are SET UP. I would NEVER go there for that risk alone. I don't want to be set up, if I did go there I would NEVER take hold luggage, carry on ONLY.

TOO RISKY.


Would YOU feel comfortable leaving YOUR luggage out of YOUR sight? With all this? Hell NO WAY EVER NEVER EVER.

We all know some people working in the Luggage area are corrupt. Even in the West, people are caught STEALING from luggage.

Who is to say somebody doesn't sneak something in there.

Even if they DID do it, if people change for the good, they should still be MURDERED? So never ever hope of changing somebody for the good? That right there is a FAILED system. No chance EVER of turning a bad into a right?

originally posted by: Kryties
a reply to: uncommitted

Did you also read the entire 3 post link I provided?

www.anu.edu.au...

Yes I did, thank you for providing.

a reply to: bullcat

It's good advice to carry all luggage with you at all times when travelling to an area with a death penalty for drug smuggling.

It's even better advice not to try to illegally import Heroin there.

I don't believe that anyone doubts that they did this, just that many disagree on the fairness of the sentence they faced.

Heroin is a ravager of lives, and they were happy to make more than just a few coins off it while knowing the risks.

I wonder if their smuggling ring did, or would have resulted in the death of border guards, distributors, users...did they consider kids who would have lost their parents to overdoses and so forth?

Evidently these two did not care for the lives of others when they did this.

originally posted by: Jansy
a reply to: Kryties

I'm not sure exactly what kind of a discussion you were expecting. Very rarely do you get measured, civil discourse about capital punishment...emotions run high on both sides. I think you were probably hoping that everyone would agree with you

Nope, but does that not allow me to call them out for what they are when they display such a callous disregard for human life? I wasn't referring to everyone, I don't know why people keep accusing me of doing so. Only a select few who seem indifferent to human life.

Yeah, the two Australians were totally rehabilitated...turned into model members of society. You have to wonder, though, what they'd be doing NOW had they not been caught and imprisoned. Do you think Mr. Chan would be teaching the disadvantaged computer skills?? Not hardly, they'd still be brokering death to line their own pockets.

You cannot know that for a fact unless you have invented time travel. Please stick to the facts, not theory of what should/could/might have happened.

As far as I'm concerned, they are as barbaric as they come...and what they were attempting was beyond disgraceful.

Of course, not a single person has suggested otherwise. Why does this keep coming up? Are people trying to insinuate we are saying that they were innocent, or that we support drug smuggling - despite having clearly denied that many times?

I am not completely against the death penalty (yeah, I know I'm SUCH a barbarian)

Never called you a barbarian, you aren't seemingly salivating over the thought of executing someone like some others have. Please stop insinuating that I am calling everyone Barbarians.

...because I think there are some crimes that are so egregious that no matter how "rehabilitated" a person becomes, their crime warrants the ultimate punishment.

According to International Law drug smuggling does not fall under the category of "Most serious crimes" and therefore does not warrant execution.

I don't know, however, if I am sold on execution for drug runners. They should serve their life sentences on some desolate rock in the middle of the ocean (the Farallon Islands are a nice place for scum like these guys), with absolutely no hope of parole. (Or escape.)

I am good with that, I am pretty sure Chan and Sukumaran would have agreed to that too. All they wanted was to be able to continue their good works in prison - works that were helping countless other prisoners.

On the other hand, as inhumane as the government of Indonesia appears to be, it's not like these guys didn't know what would happen to them if they were caught. And I am a firm believer in the philosophy of, If You Don't Want To Suffer the Consequences, Don't Commit the Crime.

Of course, but their rehabilitation efforts should have been taken into account. They weren't - by admittance of the President himself. This is wrong and unjust.

People keep repeating the same things over and over as if I am going to give a different answer at some point. It's tiresome.

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: bullcat

Evidently these two did not care for the lives of others when they did this.

But they subsequently proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they were changed men when clemency-time came. Pity their extreme efforts at rehabilitating not only themselves, but also other prisoners in the jail, were not taken into account by the President when he unjustly decided to ignore their clemency application and just sign the death warrant for political gain.

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: bullcat

Evidently these two did not care for the lives of others when they did this.

But they subsequently proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they were changed men when clemency-time came. Pity their extreme efforts at rehabilitating not only themselves, but also other prisoners in the jail, were not taken into account by the President when he unjustly decided to ignore their clemency application and just sign the death warrant for political gain.

This.

A system that ignores the fact that people change and try to do good as a result of anything bad... That right there is a FAILED system.

Zero tolerance does not work, can you show me an example where it has worked?

a reply to: Kryties

I get that, and broadly agree - i am against the death penalty.

Still their fault. One cannot rely on good deeds wiping out bad in the eyes of a punitive foreign legal system, especially when (playing devils advocate) one could be accused of reforming to save your life.

ETA: i don't pity their good deeds - one should do good without expectation of reward.

a reply to: Kryties

Well you called for a discussion. I was addressing some of what's been posted by others, as well as your OP. I'm sorry you find my comments tiresome.

Again, I really am not sure what you were expecting.

Drugs, seems to be a RELIGIOUS issue, and RELIGION is a POLITICAL issue.

Frankly, is somebody turns a bad into a good, that is something to encourage, no?
If not, then once you do "bad" (by one definition) then you may as well not bother doing good.

That is the WRONG message to send.

Good (by whatever definition) should be encouraged, no?

Whether the death penalty is 1 or 4000, doesn't matter in my book, 1 is too great a number. Murder is murder, whatever the "justification". Revenge, is NOT justice and sends the WRONG message.

Definitely not a civilised society in my book (that includes ANY country with the MURDER penalty).

a reply to: bullcat

Is it not the wrong message to send, that you can smuggle heroin into an authoritarian country with a death penalty.. aiming to profit quite magnificently from the addiction and suffering of others (who will fund their habits by crime, often violent) who may well die from your product; and then when caught and you face death that you suddenly start doing good deeds and should therefore be exempt from the law of this land that you imported misery to?

Are they not responsible for their actions?

Are you OK with Heroin smugglers?

Do you know many skag-heads?

originally posted by: Kryties
Nope, I still have all my faculties thank you very much. One can be angry and still maintain logical and rational thought processes.

Why don't you consider the number of times throughout your life that you made good judgements when you were angry compared when with you were calm and collected. You should really think about it.

Please stop insinuating I don't know what I am talking about because I am angry, it's ridiculous.

I didn't insinuate that, all I implied was that emotion was tainting your judgement on this topic, which is true.

PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH ON THE SUBJECT. I cannot stress enough how way off the mark you are with this, you clearly haven't looked deeply into the case, even though it's plastered all over the news at the moment.

Biased, one-sided propaganda against a foreign nation that is plastered over the media does not pass off as research. A comedian twisting facts to suit his beliefs on The Project does not pass off as evidence, either.

How could the President feel that no mercy should be shown when he didn't look at the applications and their reasoning as to be why they should be shown mercy? I am fascinated by your thought process here, thinking that one can deny clemency fairly when Jokowi admitted publically that he didn't look at the case.

Do you have a credible source for this claim that the President didn't look at the case? Or are you angry he did look at it and saw because it was drug smuggling that clemency should not be granted?

The fact that the men were challenging that in court and were not allowed to have that concluded before execution should be enough to make any reasonable person suspicious of the motives for executing them. Apparently not though.

They had 10 years worth of appeals dismissed, mate. It's not as if this was the first time they were appealing. As I said earlier: they were trying to navigate a ship to land when it was irreversibly sinking.

OK fine. Let me ask you a simple question in light of your admittance that they were rehabilitated. Was, therefore there execution right? Should these men have been given a second chance and not a blanket clemency denial that didnt take rehab into account?

According to an Australian mindset, based on the laws and social norms of our country, no their execution was not right. Unfortunately they committed a crime in a foreign nation where those considerations don't mean much.

Whoopdy doo. Its called DUE PROCESS. These men HAD A RIGHT to have their appeals fully heard and concluded before any decision made on their execution. Apparently DUE PROCESS this means nothing to you - or to the Indonesian President.

Again, you are thinking with an Australian law and social norm mindset, ignoring that under Indonesian law due process was granted.

I have found where leading human rights barrister Geoffrey Robertson, QC has listed the laws off, I am currently trying to find the source of that, in case you don't take his word for it:

From: smh.com.au...

the executions of Chan and Sukumaran would breach international law in three ways:

*Because capital punishment should be kept to the worst offences, such as murder and terrorism, not drug smuggling

*Because no execution should proceed while legal procedures are underway (i.e the Constitutional Court appeal due to be heard on May 12)

*Because people should not be executed after a prolonged stay on death row, because "the constant alternation of hope with despair [amounts] to mental torture, and [is] contrary to the convention on torture"

See? I provided evidence. Something I asked YOU to do, but you failed to.

You posted the opinions of a person, not actual evidence. Even in your latest replies, the definition given by international law is general at best and does not support your claims.

originally posted by: sn0rch
All of the murdered on this day at the hands of the indo govt. refused to wear blind folds. They must have looked into death with a staunch face.

All of the murdered on this day at the hands of the indo govt. sang, in unison, Amazing Grace, till a sudden and abrupt shot, ripped into their bodies, tearing at, with hope, their hearts, instantly ceasing their lives. If else, they died slowly and in agony.

And you people who cheer this on, you would have died slowly and in agony as you have no heart.

See this is what you soft empathetic no hopers come up with. A sob story. You all miss the point.

They broke a law that carries the death penalty. End of. Boo hooo hooo they were executed. GOOD

originally posted by: projectbane
See this is what you soft empathetic no hopers come up with. A sob story. You all miss the point.

They broke a law that carries the death penalty. End of. Boo hooo hooo they were executed. GOOD

Just think, it is so easy to avoid the death penalty in Indonesia.... do not smuggle drugs!

Is that so difficult to do? In 2014 nearly 10 million people visited Indonesia, and how many avoided the death penalty by not smuggling drugs?

But the Bali 9 made several trips to Indonesia, just to smuggle drugs.... So the death penalty was their own choice, no one else is to blame.