Looters Vs Lawful Protesters

a reply to: marg6043

After 15 years in the Armed forces and facing these situations, i will have to disagree. If you are throwing petrol bombs or running out of a shop carrying a tv that you have just LOOTED, you are not caught up in the moment. you are a LOOTER, RIOTER and CRIMINAL!

a reply to: jessme2

You are conflating property with personal damage, and the two are not the same. Theft is NOT rape. Life DOES have more value than property, and that includes protecting and not harming and not injuring life. In cases where life is going to be harmed, I am all for taking necessary measures, but I personally do not see that any 'thing' is worth harming any life.

When someone decides to rob someone else, they give their consent by their actions that they have forfeited their rights to the individual they are robbing.

So, either instance--defending your property with or without lethal force--is moral.

That is my own personal code.

Exactly.

But, the issue I have with people like you is that it is impossible for people like you to allow others to act upon their own personal code. Everyone has to follow yours, amirite??

a reply to: jessme2

Well if they are charging at me with hate in their eyes - I am not going to wait and see if they want to harm my family or not. Why the "F" do you support people infringing on other people's rights and property anyway? Come at me or my family with violence in your eyes and get met with far more violence than you are bringing.

Unlike you and others - there's no way in HELL I would take that gamble with my family's safety. No way.

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon
a reply to: Boadicea

And I would not have a problem with that. Your things are not more valuable than life....NOTHING is more valuable than life.

You don't really get to decide:

1. What other people value, and
2. The manner in which the individual chooses to defend his property.

Yes, you're right. It's not my choice. It was already decided on a far greater level than my own. It is the law of the land, our organic law, one of those natural inalienable rights endowed by our Creator, and codified into law.

If your friend attempts to rob someone, gets shot and dies, and you start a riot because "blah blah life and value"--then you are part of the problem.

If that happened, then yes, I would be part of the problem. Just like when one or more law enforcement officers kill someone in cold blood while in their custody and a riot starts, THEY are part of the problem. The difference is that I will not start a riot...

a reply to: ukslave

My husband is a retired Marine, I know exactly what you feel as he feels the same, but remember when you are in the ground and surrounded by rioters those around you are going to see you just like the rioters themselves, in fcase of act of violence is not time to thin out the good from the bad, collateral damage is called, you will be a danger to others just like those around you.

originally posted by: tallcool1
a reply to: jessme2

Well if they are charging at me with hate in their eyes - I am not going to wait and see if they want to harm my family or not. Why the "F" do you support people infringing on other people's rights and property anyway? Come at me or my family with violence in your eyes and get met with far more violence than you are bringing.

Unlike you and others - there's no way in HELL I would take that gamble with my family's safety. No way.

if someone is "coming at me with hate in their eyes" then I have no problem at all with that individual taking whatever measures necessary, including lethal ones, for protection and self defense. If someone is threatening violence at you, by all means do what it takes. I am just saying I don't necessarily consider theft against PROPERTY an 'act of violence' but rather that is against a PERSON is.

It's not semantics. It's about what is valued and where priorities lie.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

I personally would take property theft or damage as a threat against me (personally). Or should i assume that the person stealing and burning my stuff will follow a strict moral code and stop at looting and arson? He or she made the decision to become a criminal and i will make the decision to defend me and mine.. everytime and in everyway possible.

a reply to: jessme2

Well that's fine for you, but if someone is stealing my crap while I'm there - I'm not going to make them some tea and help them box it all up.

originally posted by: ukslave
a reply to: Boadicea

sweet, can i come now and take all your hard earned stuff??

My dear, if you need my stuff that bad, then I will give it to you, and walk away a little sadder, but with a clear conscience. No need to steal anything. If you do try to steal it, however, you'll have to get past my Dobies and black lab first. But no worries, they're real sweethearts.

if you are happy to be robbed then i'm sorry, you are a mug!

Happy? Not the adjective I would use, but yes, I suppose I would be much "happier" to be robbed than to be a cold blooded killer. I can accummulate things again... I cannot restore a life.

a reply to: Boadicea

Yes, you're right. It's not my choice. It was already decided on a far greater level than my own. It is the law of the land, our organic law, one of those natural inalienable rights endowed by our Creator, and codified into law.

So, truth and "rightness" can be determined by what has been established as a law? If we made it legal to lynch black people with no just cause, then it would be OK to lynch black people?

Does that include the jurisprudence of other countries, or only the United States? North Korea has some pretty interesting laws, and the "truth" deduced from them is questionable.

It is true that you have rights, and the only entity that can take them from you, morally, is you. As I stated above--when someone decides to rob someone else, they give their consent by their actions that they have forfeited their rights to the individual they are robbing.

So, since the individual willingly gives up their right to life by robbing another indivual, it is the right of the individual being robbed to decide to use lethal force or not. Not you, or the group, or the government, or God.

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon
a reply to: scattergun

Good post.

I tried to explain in other threads that when a real revolution happens there will be opportunists looting, but that's why we have the right to bear arms.

I wouldn't blame a business owner for using lethal force to defend their livelihood, I would do the same.

The issue I have is that the media focuses exclusively on the looters without telling us what the revolutionaries are doing, it is a smear campaign to hide the fact that police departments have become beyond corrupt.

Exactly, individuals can handle these situations ourselves without substantial support from law enforcement as long as our right to defend ourselves with force is not severely constrained. Since law enforcement can never really provide substantial support to everyone it can be argued that they are irrelevant.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."

Robert A. Heinlein

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: tallcool1
a reply to: Boadicea

So just let them in to steal your stuff, beat the crap out of you and rape your wife and daughters.

Yes, I would let someone steal my stuff before I killed them in cold blood. Like I said, nothing is more valuable than life. It is also the law. As for beating the crap out of me and raping my wife and daughter... nothing was said about a beating, just looting, so it doesn't apply. I don't have a wife either, I have a husband, so that doesn't apply either. As for someone raping my daughter, yes, I would fight for my daughter, and if that meant killing the perp, I would have to live with it. My daughter's person is much different than things that can be replaced.

Sorry - any bastard tries to harm my family and they'll get a dose of lead poisoning. I may end up in prison, but that's a small price to pay to keep my family safe.

Again, nothing was said about harming one's family in the post I responded to... People are not things.

I don't believe in incremental measured defenses, they tend to encourage incremental measured assaults up to and including rape and murder though the expeditionary violation may have been merely against property.

Everyone has to make their own choices in life.

Choose to step on someone elses toes, bring violence and hate into their personal space, and you choose to accept responsibility for your actions- including the repercussions of getting up close and personal to a stranger.

I wouldn't let myself into someone elses home and start going through their things- I have no idea what that person has, or how they feel about it. For all I know they're a master of martial arts and have a flair for slowly eating people alive.


I've lost plenty to theft since moving to the city- and given MY way, if I caught someone stealing MY hard earned tools and equipment, I'd take a finger for every infraction. Didn't the penalty for theft used to be your hand?

Of course, then you have to imagine anyone willing to come into your home and steal your things likely knows they're risking quite a bit- which means they've made the choice against all reason to risk their well being for ill gotten gains. You'd have to be stupid to take this risk without being prepared to fight for your own safety- so there's a good chance this person is not only OK with being a criminal, but they're also OK with being violent.

Now it's a situation where someone unknown, who may or may not be armed, may or may not be out for blood, may or may not be on any number of substances... is there, in your home/business, taking your things- destroying all you've worked your whole life for. What do you do?

Let's just get to the core of the situation- I value some life more than others. We may all be "created" equal, but that doesn't mean we stay that way.
If you're using your life to inflict pain and suffering on others, I value yours far less than I value the life of someone I know to be a level headed fair person. If you're using your life to steal from others, I value your life less than I value the life of someone who I know to be working hard to make their way in the world.

So, go ahead- come onto my property and introduce yourself by stealing my hard earned tools. Let's make our first meeting a memorable one- because your life isn't worth as much as my own, and If you're here to steal from me, I don't care what you think, because you've already proven yourself to be wrong.

a reply to: Boadicea

I have a feeling that you may well be a princess in several Nigerian villages Do you not feel that your hard earned possessions are worth fighting for? If not why the hell would you put in all the hours to earn them? Im not saying i would break the neck of some guy trying to pick pocket me but you turn up at my place with intention of looting my house and burning down whatever or whomever is deemed by you not worthy of being removed and you will be in a fight for your life (and you made that decision)!

a reply to: jessme2

It is an old and very successful tactic.

Money and power will always win out, and those that are not affected will always turn a blind eye.


www.whatdoyaknow.com...

beginning in 1894 when oil-and-railroad tycoon Henry M. Flagler contrived a scheme to get rid of blacks who lived on his island-paradise creation -- Palm Beach. At first Flagler hired thousands of unemployed black laborers to help build the Royal Poinciana Hotel and transform the island from a swamp to an opulent landing spot for wealthy socialites along his Florida East Coast Railway.

The workers, who lived in a Palm Beach shantytown called the Styx, toiled through the summer for the promise of a steady income. But when the hotel was completed, Flagler realized that his chichi guests wouldn't fancy staying at a hotel, however posh, if blacks lived in shacks nearby. So in reward, ostensibly, for completing the hotel on time, Flagler sponsored a carnival on the opposite side of the Intracoastal, in what later became the city of West Palm Beach. While the workers and their families enjoyed the festivities, Flagler had the Styx set ablaze, according to the book "Palm Beach Babylon," a social history of sorts that gives detailed accounts of island scandals. The Styx was razed, but Flagler created for his workers a new town to be built on property that he already owned north of the carnival site. That property became Pleasant City...

(For the full article: www.newtimesbpb.com...)

But you don't have to go back that far to see this tactic used before. Remember Chocolate City? Try to buy a house there now. Come back and tell us how that went for you.

I no longer pretend that the people are just asleep and content. I find no comfort in that lie.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

Given your line of reasoning, apparently you do not know or understand the foundation of our law, nor the definition of inalienable rights. I do not have time to educate you.

In the end, though, you're right. We all have free will and can be as good or as horrid as we choose to be... and then face the consequences -- legal, moral or natural. If you want to hate on me for preferring to be good to people and live my life to a higher standard (in accordance with the law) you can. Obviously. And I can think what I will of those who put things before life.

But I'm not a cop. I won't be putting you in jail. All I have is an opinion. My opinion won't hurt you... but I already know you will hurt me. Thanks for the heads up!

originally posted by: greencmp

I don't believe in incremental measured defenses, they tend to encourage incremental measured assaults up to and including rape and murder though the expeditionary violation may have been merely against property.

I don't think I'm understanding what you're trying to say, so I don't want to respond as yet. Can you expand on your thoughts please?

a reply to: Boadicea

Given your line of reasoning, apparently you do not know or understand the foundation of our law, nor the definition of inalienable rights. I do not have time to educate you.

I understand very well the philosophy of the natural rights of man.

The concept is such that a sovereign creator endowed us with our unalienable rights. Since, conceptually, a creator is of higher authority than any human power, then it stands to reason that any thing a creator endows us with cannot be taken away by human force.

My reasoning is sound, because given that context only you have the power to give up your natural rights--either directly or indirectly. Robbing someone of your own free will is an example of indirectly relinquishing your natural rights through the consent of your actions. The person being robbed is then endowed with the right to decide to use lethal force.

In the end, though, you're right. We all have free will and can be as good or as horrid as we choose to be... and then face the consequences -- legal, moral or natural.

Yes, that's why it's bad to rob people.

If you want to hate on me for preferring to be good to people and live my life to a higher standard (in accordance with the law) you can.

You're very good at dancing around questions. Law is arbitrary and is not an objective measure of morality, you never explained how you believe it is.

Obviously. And I can think what I will of those who put things before life.

I love life, but if someone attempts to rob me, I am going to assume they are dangerous and won't stop there and I will shoot to kill.

Actions and consequences and such.

But I'm not a cop. I won't be putting you in jail. All I have is an opinion. My opinion won't hurt you...

Can't really jail me for having a different opinion.

but I already know you will hurt me. Thanks for the heads up!

You're going to rob me???

a reply to: lordcomac

I am not directing this just to you. It seems though, that you and several others seem to think this is all about items that can be pillaged and burned.

Unfortunately, it is most likely you will not be around, or alive, to see if you succeeded in saving your family or your possessions, when they come for them. They want you to feel this bravado, this sense of righteousness, this sense of courage, and you will be an easy target, unless you have an army standing with you.

My suggestion for any that want to listen to an old lady, if you value any possession enough to die for it, you are a damn fool. If challenged, take your family and get the hell out of Dodge. It is not going to be a place where you would want to stay anyway.

We are going to have to go back to basics folks. We waited too long. I am afraid we have lost this one.

originally posted by: ukslave
a reply to: Boadicea

I have a feeling that you may well be a princess in several Nigerian villages

That was probably a real clever left-handed insult that went way over my head... or simply below my level of comprehension. I'm so sorry I don't care enough to... well... care.

Do you not feel that your hard earned possessions are worth fighting for? If not why the hell would you put in all the hours to earn them?

Things come and go. Things need to be cleaned and organized and put away and repaired and replaced and on and on. Things are often more trouble than they're worth. In regards to gifts, I told my family long ago that I would rather have their time and experiences than things. Invite me over for dinner. Take me to the Botanical Gardens. Memories are far more valueable than things. That's just the physical side of it. On the spiritual side, what have I gained if I save my things and lose my soul?

Im not saying i would break the neck of some guy trying to pick pocket me...

I'd like to think that you wouldn't, but you didn't say you wouldn't either.

... but you turn up at my place with intention of looting my house and burning down whatever or whomever is deemed by you not worthy of being removed and you will be in a fight for your life (and you made that decision)!

You both make your own decisions. You are in no way compelled to respond to anyone or anything in any way. That is your choice.