ABUSE CRISIS: ACLU : Bush Authorized Torture

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
How about some evidence of the good will of your president instead of constantly repeating the, "There is no proof," mantra for the next 4 years?...

That would be harder than digging up Bush's authorization Its hard to talk about the good points when there are none.

If he changed the title to "alleged" Authorization, would you back off?

Seems we have a bunch of pro-Government "moderators" running this place and trying to squash any hint of injustice. For what reason? Because their is only circumstantial evidence? And by the why...I merely pointed out a suspect memo.

[edit on 21-12-2004 by antipigopolist]

No Thorfinn...there is no "obvious," here, other than what is apparently "obvious" and that being, that you and others assert that Bush authorized such and have nothing to back it.
Again, other than baseless allegations, there is NO proof that Bush authorized the use of controversial methods (torture) other than the FBI E-Mail. Nada.

So in this applied case, because it is known that I support Bush, because I have found nothing to remotely verify this FBI E-mail assertion concerning Bush and "a presidential executive order," I am claimed to be justifying? Nope, I am merely interested in the truth, and the truth of the matter is that the allegations are baseless till the executive order is produced and/or the White House claims that they authorized such uses of controversial methods. This silly arse crap wouldn't even hold water in a court of law and you folks have already condemned him in this matter. Nothing new and expected, huh?


antipigopolist,

Obfuscate all you like, Seekey!

I'll try not to, but please don't trip over using such big words, because to me and this topic, the "obfucation" is taking place by those who fail to provide what this topic alledges.....that Bush authorized the use of controversial methods (torture) based on "a presidential executive order."





seekerof

[edit on 21-12-2004 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
I'll try not to, but please don't trip over using such big words, because to me and this topic, the "obfucation" is taking place by those who fail to provide what this topic alledges.....that Bush authorized the use of controversial methods (torture) based on "a presidential executive order."
seekerof

errr....my bad Seeker...I misread your post...must slow down...sorry for the misinterpretation!
Do you still find me sexy?

And I tripped over 'circunstantial" not obfuscation, you brute!

edit:
And I agree wholeheartedly...the title should be changed until more evidence of this alleged document is provided. I was just adding abit of info from the past. Don't hit me!

[edit on 21-12-2004 by antipigopolist]

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Well, well, well!

I see the Bush-bashing hasn't stopped!

IMHO, President Bush didn't do anything wrong by authorizing this executive order.

It's about time we have a president who will dish out the kind of medicine that the enemy has been dishing out to the civilized world for years on end.

So please tell me anti-Bush people, what are we suppose to do with people that their only purpose in life is to kill us?

Oooh! I remember now! Give them milk and cookies, a pat on the back and commend them for a fine job they're doing at killing innocent people!

We can release all the prisoners, give them back their weapons, send them back from whence they came and ignor them.

Maybe, just maybe they'll leave us alone! NOT!



[edit on 21/12/04 by Intelearthling]

Yeah, Bush is doing his own style of bashing. He is bush bashing the prisoners of war by authorizing this executive order. He is doing a great bush-bash job on Iraq, for sure.

Since when does 2 wrongs make a right? Just because other countries do bad things means that it is ok for bush to ok them to be done? What kind of civilized behavior is that? We are just as accountable for our actions as any other country.

As for doing a fine job at killing innocent people, we have done a great job at the killing of over 100,000 innocent Iraqi citizens. We are just as guilty at this if not more.

What do we do to people whose only purpose is to kill us?...capture them and try them and if found guilty then ...prison or execution...but not until being found guilty. Raping and torturing them while in our custody makes us uncivilized hypocrites. Due process is the way that things are supposed to be done by civilized people.

World laws and treatise are there to maintain a civilized world. They are guides for times during war when things can go wrong that should not go wrong. They are there to protect human rights...all human rights, not just american... and if we can't follow them....how civilized does that make us? Are not civilized people responsible to set an example for the rest of the world? We are world leaders and a fine example we have set.

The prisoner abuse has made things so much worse in Iraq for all...kidnappings and beheadings were not happening like this before then. Daily car bombings and total lawlessness was not the case in Iraq, either.

Bush-BAshing, yes, but Bush is the one who is doing the bashing...he deserves the criticism he is getting! He created this horrible mess now he deserves to take the heat for it.

"Maybe they will just leave us alone"...got some news....the Iraqis didn't fly the planes into the towers. They are just defending thier country after being invaded as we would defend ours if they had come over here and invaded us on our turf. Then we would be the ones who just want to kill them...wait...I think we already are!

For the record, I am not against Saddam being taken out of power but the focus should have first been Osama. Saddam would have been there when we got there. There were inspectors all over the place that were keeping him in check as well as sanctions. Then we would have had the help of the UN.

Instead we have disgrace, grief, humiliation and shame but we still do not have Osama.

WAKE UP AMERICA!

Then how about some counter evidence for this administration's innocence, Seekerof?...

I know I'm going to hate myself in the morning, but I'll just go ahead and say it: if keeping a POW awake for a few days in a row will keep another 9/11 from happening...go for it.

However, from what I've been reading today, this situation went way beyond hoods and too-warm rooms. The NY Times is saying:

F.B.I. memorandums portray abuse of prisoners by American military personnel in Iraq that included detainees' being beaten and choked and having lit cigarettes placed in their ears....

This is torture, no two ways about it. If it turns out that Bush gave the OK for this, he should be impeached and imprisoned, *now.*

Originally posted by Intelearthling
It's about time we have a president who will dish out the kind of medicine that the enemy has been dishing out to the civilized world for years on end.

So please tell me anti-Bush people, what are we suppose to do with people that their only purpose in life is to kill us?

Oooh! I remember now! Give them milk and cookies, a pat on the back and commend them for a fine job they're doing at killing innocent people!

This is exactly the type of knee-jerk reaction that you're condemning here, just the opposite side of the coin. It's the same knee-jerk reaction that NC pointed out of anti-war people (which also applies to pro-war people, although I'm sure he failed to mention that is it weren't relavent to his post) and you are also very wrong in your assessment.

Before making my point I feel I should point out my reaction to this story as someone who opposes the war and Bush, which was...where's the story here?
It doesn't surprise me one bit that abuse/torture goes down with these interogations (and yes, I do mean both seperate acts...I know the difference and they BOTH go down). Anyone who doesn't think this is happening and that the military right up to the President knows about it is in need of a serious reality check.
I mean come on, to think it isn't even happening in police cells/interrogation rooms is rediculous.

However, to assume that this is the only way to extract information is very wrong and no...we don't want to be making them tea and scones...but there are other ways to extract information without resorting to abuse/torture.

For example, check out this interview with a former professional interrogator for Israel's security service Michael Koubi, who has only ever used psychology to gain information...never violence...although the threat of violence was certainly a tool. However, he states that he has no room for anyone who does use violence, a true interrogator does not need it.

It's amazing what information can be extracted from someone when you say things a certain way or create a fictional situation or threat...just ask Social Engineers. So no...I don't expect them to be treated kindly but I do expect that things be done professionally and properly, not the "They hurt my buddy I'm going to hurt him" mentality. That's what got us here in the first place and if we keep playing that game we're going to keep going in circles forever.

However as I said just because things can be done this way doesn't mean they are done this way. Some will get impatient and let personal matters cloud their judgement and would just rather beat a man to get info rather than spending hours/days trying to talk it out of him...but that doesn't mean it should be accepted which it isn't under law.

If someone rapes and murders someone's daughter, and then the father kills that man then sure we understand it...but it's the LAW that someone cannot take the law into their own hands...so we certainly don't condone it. If we did, God knows where the tit-for-tat would end.

I'm a realist and know that behind closed doors they're probably getting the crap kicked out of them and worse. If any sensible person knows this then they know that the President certainly knows it so let's not beat around the bush here, it's naive to think otherwise. We know why violence may be used and can certainly understand that, but our leaders signed treaties e.t.c. so that this kind of thing doesn't happen, and we know why we created these laws so they can NEVER be accepted. Although I think we all know by now that Bush and his cronies think they're above it all, and the sad part is...they're probably right.

oh...and Seekerof, you didn't give a straight answer to the question, you did the classic "well of course not, but..." which basically excuses the action straight away, so no it's not clear...

It seems that your position is if this is true then because many other countries probably do it then it's ok for Bush to approve it...tit-for-tat, right? It's good to see that your playground mentality of "...but Sir! He did it to me first...why can't I do it back *boo hoo!*?" forgetting the issue of right and wrong...I'm glad to see some things never change around here.

Well if you're going to do your usual thing of bringing it down to playground mentality then I guess it's my responsibility to ask the adult/parental question which is...if terrorists put their hand in the fire would you?

[edit on 21-12-2004 by John Nada]

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Then how about some counter evidence for this administration's innocence, Seekerof?...

Given....when I cited the links to two executive orders archives. Nuff said.




seekerof

.
A tangent thought:

Just because someone says they are FBI [or CIA] and even if they flash a badge they may not be.

Perhaps many things that are being attributed to the FBI [and some others] may be impostors.

Could be military or anyone.

If everything is calm, tell anyone flashing a badge you are going to call the home office [If possible] and check on them first.
.

Originally posted by Seekerof
As such, your refut is baseless. Provide to the contrary?
Btw, how many nation's are going to openly admit such controversial uses, Masked Avatar? Hmm?
As with the motto that "one man's terrorist is another freedom fighter," 'BS' is moot without and amounts to subjectiveness when not backed with anything remotely resembling a contrary viewpoint.
My list:
Egypt
Syria
Iran
China
North Korea
UK
Lebanon
France
Germany
Russia
Israel
India
Pakistan
South Africa
Kuwait
Saudi Arabia
Libya
etc.
etc
etc
etc
The list can go on despite many of these nations, and others, signing on to the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

Regardless of your contesting to what I said, the historical use of controversial methods to gain information is long and undeniable. Again, as I said above, this is not a justification, per se'. My whole interest in this matter is solely based on the reasoning for the allowing of such controversial methods being used.

Since when have france germany and the UK tortured people? - recently not ww2 events.

edit: bah bad quoting skills

[edit on 21-12-2004 by SiRiNO]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Given....when I cited the links to two executive orders archives. Nuff said.

seekerof

Hahaha you wont because you cant, there is no evidence for the administration's innocence, all they have done is kill civilians en mass, scare the stupid people into being controled and strip away freedoms. All in all sounds like a good governemnt glad its not mine.

TextGiven....when I cited the links to two executive orders archives. Nuff said.
seekerof

Common sense Seekerof, use some common sense. I gave you a viable reason for them not to have been reported publicly, like a great deal many things are.

I'm not sure if you are ignoring me, but you seem to blow over all my remarks..

Deep

Dubya the torturer? Who'd have thought? The nice young Yale Bones and numbSkuller?.

Who'd have thought that tortured grammar and strained diction could lead to this? Fried one neuron too many in them good ole' days of hard drinkin', druggin', and womanizin'. Lost that pesky moral compass along the way. Fry a few inmates, fry the world? Old habits die hard. But still goes to church, mind you. Got to stay close to God after all. Keep up the facade. Make sure the emporer has a wardrobe.

It's a marvel what a well told lie coupled with that folksy down home sittin' in the lounger with a Budweiser attitude and a formidable media machine can bring into being. Half the country was fooled into supporting this administration's destruction of what America stood for: Instead of practicing their espoused Christian values they practice the ethic of "doing unto them before they do unto us". This fellow is going to bring our country to its knees before the next four years are through, and he and his buds will be ever the richer for it.

Seekerof, and you other supporters of the notion that George the Dubya can do no wrong, how far will he have to drag us down before you change your tune? The man is committing international crimes at an accelerating pace in the name of our once great country. Yes, once great. An iron fist, grasping for money, material, power, and control, and having the means and will to wield it against those who are weaker, doesn't make a nation great. The crimes of others don't justify our own.

Our leaders are glorying in spreading death and mayhem around the world. They're a pack of power drunk maniacs whose methods are force and deception driven by greed. As long as they have the big stick, by God, you'd better not stand in the way. These days, any resistance is quickly met with the big stick topped with zero respect for human rights, agreements, dignity, honor, or respect for our proper place in the world community.

But, eventually, every bully is brought to his knees. Those who so blindly support George the Dubya, where will you stand when he crashes low, as he surely will if he continues down this path of destruction and trampling on anything that happens to lay where his shoe is about to step?

Since you defend Bush's use of torture as a legitimate information gathering tool, do you support its application to you and yours. No? Well, what if you somehow become "suspected"? It�ll be OK, right? I mean, it�s legitimate to torture suspected people, right? And, since this is consistent with your moral code, you'll take it with a smile when they apply the current to your testicles, force you to eat #, and worse, right? Or is it only acceptable when done to others who hail from the lower socio-economic classes?

When I read your cold hearted endorsement of the torture of others who have been accorded no procedural fairness whatsoever, a part of me hopes that you too can partake of that experience as a victim some day, just so you'll see what it's like, and then maybe, just maybe, you'll reconsider the morbid stupidity of what you're saying in this forum, and perhaps grasp how your support of inhumanity is encouraging its spread to ever more innocent victims around the world.

Surely, every other country in the world including our allies is having serious second thoughts about their loyalties toward us about this time, wondering when the big stick might be turned on them. Oh, "if you ain't with us, you're agin' us." Almost forgot. Just toe the line and all will be well.

How long can this continue? Any predictions?

When I read your cold hearted endorsement of the torture of others who have been accorded no procedural fairness whatsoever, a part of me hopes that you too can partake of that experience as a victim some day, just so you'll see what it's like, and then maybe, just maybe, you'll reconsider the morbid stupidity of what you're saying in this forum, and perhaps grasp how your support of inhumanity is encouraging its spread to ever more innocent victims around the world.

Yes, too right. Anyone who supports such atrocities, is only doing so, because they are yet to experience it themselves. Yet, let it be assured, that they will, because that is the law of karma, and the law of Bush

So Seekerof, brace yourself for the passing of more executive orders. Do you want me to say which?

the Good Dr got to love this speech from Heinrich Himmler about war and survival:

"One basic principal must be the absolute rule for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech, does not interest me in the slightest. What the nations can offer in good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interest me only in so far as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals, will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When someone comes to me and says, "I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it will kill them", then I would have to say, "you are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and they are the sons of German mothers. They are our own blood".

Yup, now I see why you think the current government is still too liberal, except your hero Rummy


[edit on 22-12-2004 by Countermeasures]

Obviously none of those who are bashing away have neither read the memo or don't know what real torture is.....

What was happening at Abu Graib went out of hand, and those soldiers just went insane and enjoyed what they were doing.... i do not condone what they did, some of the things they did were criminal.

But.....for crying outloud some of our own forces go through more torture as training than what is described in that memo.... Perhaps you should all find out what SERE (as in Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) is....before you start talking crap. As Aircrew AW we have to go through that training, as well as other special forces, pilots etc, etc...and no, I am not going into details as to what happens in that training. If only SERE school was as simple as what is described in that memo.....

Marg, did your husband go through SERE? i doubt it, because if he did he would laugh at ACLU calling what is described in that memo as torture.



[edit on 22-12-2004 by Muaddib]

Here is a link and an excerpt to what SERE school is...

Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) Course: (D-2D-0039) 12 Days
This course is designed to provide Level "C" Code of Conduct training to pilots, flight officers, intelligence officers, aircrew, and other designated high risk of capture personnel as directed by respective TYCOMs/MCCDC in accordance with DOD Instruction 1300.21 and the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (JPRA) Executive Agent Instruction. Training encompasses those basic skills necessary for world-wide survival; expedite search and rescue efforts; evade capture by hostile forces; resistance to interrogation, exploitation and indoctrination; and escape from detention by enemy forces in accordance with DOD Instruction 1300.21. It is based on and reinforces the values expressed in the Code of Conduct while maintaining an appropriate balance of sound educational methodology and realistic/stressful training scenarios.

Excerpted from.
www.fasolant.navy.mil...

Notice the "resistance to interrogation, exploitation and indoctrination" part......

[edit on 22-12-2004 by Muaddib]

WHAAAAAA, i have to sit in the corner with a bag on my head
WWWHHHIIINNNEEE...they keep waking me up......
BBBOOO HHHOOO its too hot/cold in here
CRY CRY.... they threaten to sick dogs on me (yet never let get me)
OHH NOO, they keep making me squat, stand or other uncomfoortable position....

Far far worse torture is used elsewhere, and can be used if needed

To keep most of you hippy pacifists safe I would sign an order that allowed the methods Bush approved if i thought it could prevent the deaths of you or your kids.
This is war, not a tea party.
our guys will likley get beaten, starved and have their head cut off as part of their torture...

Hopefully word will get around that the Americans are serious business if you get caught....perhaps this will disuade wanting to engague in things that would get you caught as a terrorist needing interrogation.

forced sodomy is wrong
electro shock wrong
burning wrong,
assault wrong...
but this cake walk crap is tame by comparrison

It is remarkable that so many here have such empathy for those that would kill them without hesitation. Torture is wrong and frankly doesn't work anyway. Nothing described in these "papers" is torture. Fact plain and simple. It would seem many here have seen too many bad cop movies and macho hollywood crap. Interrogation today is very efficient, especially chemical interrogation. This WAR is not some "Steven Sagal" flick. Every minute, of everyday these animals are trying to find ways to murder YOU, yes, YOU. You are not SAFE anywhere.

These poor "souls" are the worst of the worst. I wish there was half as much "empathy" for the victims of Terror.