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Truly, truly; You shall see heaven opened

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posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 10:01 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
You're right, the belief that all is symbolic is absurd.

I thought I had proved, with very full examples, that the belief "everything is literal" is absurd.




posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 10:30 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

But you don't see the difference between symbology and real events.

"I leave symbols to the symbol minded"-- George Carlin

You can stop hammering my in box with replies , I had my say.
edit on 25-4-2015 by intrptr because: corrected quote



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 02:06 PM
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Ascending and descending upon the son of man...

The wording makes me think of something far more carnal than angels going up and down a ladder between heaven and earth....

Maybe Christ himself was a carnal Christian...
edit on 25 4 15 by funkadeliaaaa because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: intrptr

I cant deny future prophesy within the text but at the same time I don't think God would have given them information they could not have related to their own time and culture of understanding . A chariot was a machine of war back then and is in our times . Using the word tank would not have served the immediate purpose in their time to consider . We are guilty today of imposing our world view on ancient text that we have no right to do . That is where the confusion comes in . The Baptist say this the Catholics say that and if we really want to know what God meant ,have to go back to the original context in which it was given imo .



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: funkadeliaaaa

He did say the bulls of Bashan have surrounded me .To get to a point of understanding of that you need to factor in the Ugrric text and the god Baul .



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 04:47 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


Your “symbology” is incorrect.You see it as symbols of literal historical events and things and they aren’t.To qualifying them as such only leads to confusion and a convoluted story.It is literally tilting at windmills.The monster/ windmills were fears to be conquered in Don Quioxtes imagination.They didn’t have any speciftivity to literal events or things.Just because what John “saw” in his vision/dream were symbols does not mean they are symbols of actual historic events.You are reading into the text what isn’t there and creating your own myths that you share with millions.

Is the 7 headed beast a government, a coalition, an institution etc etc..it is clear that type of thinking is all convolution and meaningless.It creates a reality from nothing and calls it symbolism of reality.John was not writing of predictions or prophecies of past present or future historical events and neither was Yahoshua speaking of literal spiritual angelic beings ascending and descending to a literal place heaven.He is describing things that have no equivalents in the physical realm.There are no such “spiritual beings“ as angels as if the creator God need “helpers”.That is ludicrous assumptions and is demeaning the creator God.

Angels /messenger/ helpers are the enacting of the creator Gods power in the physical realm.An angel could just as well be a rock.There is no need to categorize the metaphors Yahoshua is using as being literal nouns .Yahoshua’s metaphors are always what is called metaphysical…beyond the physical realm and cannot be known.It is hubris to believe they can be known by a methodology of study especially religion.

Yahoshua is only stating by proclamation (preaching) “what is”.Even in his explanations of the parables he does not define the true reality of what he is saying because it it is superfluous to do so. It would be like taking a time machine back to when Neanderthals lived and trying to explain genetics to them so they could cause evolution.

Yahoshua had one proclamation to make…the Good news.It is the most significant thing ever revealed and touches every aspect of all life in the universe...yet he isn’t trying to explain it so you can “do something about it” he is preaching it.

Yahoshua is the the son/seed of the creator God.(ascending and descending)Yahoshua means Yahweh (the creator God) is deliverance/salvation.That is ALL he is ever stating.He is not cloaking “spiritual messages” and information he is stating facts about the reality mankind cannot perceive the details or orgin.

Mankind can only perceive their life in the physical realm.The most compelling fact of that life is it will be extremely short(in the grande scheme of the universe) most likely filled with suffering and joy and will end in death.If that is “all their is” then this life is in vain.All the works of a person hands will be “lost” to the void.It may effect those that live during and after your life however the vast majority of lives will have very little effect on the whole and then of course it will all die.

Yahoshua corollary to that life is..there is more…MUCH, MUCH more and ALL of it is completely beyond your imagination and knowing.He never tried to “describe” that life as literal details because there is none to be had.He may as well try to explain human life to a human spermatozoon.

He can state to the spermatozoon in sperm language that when they are married to an egg and thrive they will grow to be something quite different than a spermatozoon but anything else is futile…the spermatozoon cannot understand anything Yahoshua says for what it’s “reality is.It is completely ignorant of things beyond the sperm realm life.But Yahoshua could communicate to it somehow that it’s life as a spermatozoon cell is only the beginning…and very little if anymore….or nothing at all.

The fact is Yahoshua has made an entrance(descended) as the son/seed of Man and the creator God into the physical universe realm.He has communicated the Good news that ALL of life will die in the physical universe and descend into Hades the realm of death YET it will all be resurrected and ascend to LIFE.

This Good news message (angel) is not much different than the one Yahoshua would tell the spermatozoon and it is very like it in that he gives no instructions or details of “how” the process works because there is no reason to..it can’t be understood any more than explaining conception to a spermatozoon.

The myth is believing methods of religion(doctrines) is what causes a person(spermatozoon) to be conceived.The myth is that by believing doctrines of religion then performing ethical and moral acts that the spermatozoon man will become the strongest swimmer and marry an egg woman and live happily ever after.That is not the Good news.

The Good news is you are not the seed that is causing “LIFE”… Yahoshua is.Your seed life is doomed to death and there is ZERO anyone can do to alter that course.However the Good is Yahoshua is causing all Life by the will of the creator God… the decaying former spermatozoon has ZERO to do with it except receive it just as it did from it’s beginning.THAT is the Good news of the descending and ascending of the Son of Man....Not some convoluted symbology of religion.

Who will believe that..very few..especially the carnal religious minded.They believe THEY have a dog in this fight that somehow their “choice” to live will cause them to live.That is nothing but extreme religious delusion.It didn’t happen in their physical conception it surely will not happen in the conception of LIFE.

That is the encapsulation of the foolishness of the religious carnal minded man.Believing they are the “cause” because they made a choice which they have no idea what that means or does or even if it has any meaning or does anything.The bottom line is very simple.Yahoshua clearly stated to some religious pharisees…

“You search the scriptures thinking that in them you have LIFE yet you fail to come to me whom they testify of that I would deliver you.”

That is because Yahoshua IS the deliverer/savor..of ALL of creation (including ALL of mankind).They are the son/seed of the creator God and the son/seed of Man.They have descend into the physical realm (the soil) when the soil is fertile the seed will ascend and grow a tree that will produce 30,60 and 100 fold good fruit.This Good news has ZERO to do with any religious doctrines of man.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 05:10 PM
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originally posted by: Rex282
Your “symbology” is incorrect.You see it as symbols of literal historical events and things and they aren’t.

I was in danger of going off-topic when I went into so much detail on Revelation.
All I really meant to do was to illustrate the need for appreciating Biblical symbology, so that it could be applied to our understanding of the "ladder" vision.
However, I think my presumption that they point to real historical events is as valid as your presumption that they don't.

You are reading into the text what isn’t there and creating your own myths that you share with millions.

You are very flattering, but I doubt if I share them with more than the odd thousand.


Angels /messenger/ helpers are the enacting of the creator Gods power in the physical realm.An angel could just as well be a rock.

You know, that is not so different from the way that I've been treating them.
I touched upon that in the OP, when I described them as representing God's work in the world, and I made similar comments in later replies.
It was expressed more fully in my thread on the Bethel experience;

... the essence of the Bethel experience is being able to recognise God at work.
That was the significance of the vision which portrayed the movements of his agents.
The symbolism shows him originating and managing what takes place over the world at large.
The purpose of this vision was to encourage Jacob to go forward in trust.
When you recognise God’s work in the world, then you are recognising God’s presence in the world.
We may recognise the law of gravity as God’s angel driving round the planets.
We may recognise the political circumstances of the campaigns of Cyrus as God’s angel bringing back the Jews from their exile in Babylon.
We may, like Jacob, recognise God’s work and therefore God’s presence in our own lives, and that may encourage us to act in trust.

We are both engaged in understanding the symbolic language, but I think the real key is to aim at reading out of these statements what God wants to say to us, rather than reading into them what we prefer to believe.

edit on 25-4-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Hi D ...Molinism is the only logical escape from the philosophical debate between God's sovereignty and mans free will .

I got distracted from responding to this. Thank you for that link.
I'm more used to thinking of myself as an Arminian (I'm certainly not a Calvinist).
To be honest, though, I haven't really gone into the philosophical details of how the two can be reconciled.
I've been content with accepting that, as a theological principle, since the Bible appears to call for both.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 05:26 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

So true and many work like a dog to get there while at the same time believing God's grace is sufficient .On the other hand ,Calvinist believe they are too deprived to logically choose and sit on their buts doing nothing .



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1
Paul gets the balance right; "We live by the Spirit... let us also walk by the Spirit".
So does James; "I have faith... I will show it in my works".



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: funkadeliaaaa

He did say the bulls of Bashan have surrounded me .To get to a point of understanding of that you need to factor in the Ugrric text and the god Baul .


I have no idea what they are...



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 06:37 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

When John wrote from his opening statement in Revelation.... these things following are written in signs(symbols) I take him at his word.He then proceeds to corroborate that form by using symbolism in describing a man whose head and hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;and his feet like to fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters ..that is not a description of a “real man”.Yes it uses symbology but it does not mean it is of a “man or of any other thing in the physical realm.

John stated from the beginning this was about the unveiling of Yahoshua hamaschiach.He says ZERO about historical events and people yet you believe your”presumption”is valid when the texts context says quite differently.These are the foundational “flaws” in you theory I am writing about.

It is in everything about theology you write.Your premise is flawed which makes all of your presumptions incorrect and leavened and that is precisely what you don’t understand.Yahoshua explained the same thing to the pharisees.They had a theology and every once in a while their doctrine had a seed of truth in it.However it was not their seed.

You are correct in that you said angels are the acts of the creator God yet I am positive you will contradict that (with leaven) and say that angels are spiritual beings who dwell in a heaven.It is right back to the flaw of your symbolism.They aren’t symbols” of actual beings or events.For instance there is no “day” of judgement like in a court on a “date”.A person will not literally stand before the creator God and have a judgement passed down on them yet that is precisely what Christianity and billions of Christians (and I am sure you do also) believe.

That is taking what is “written” in symbols and signs literally, where the language of it is aiming to take you “out” of your mind to show”this is not literal”it is only a symbol for something true but cannot be known.

Another for instance …..there is no “person” the Antichrist yet I have seen you state there is after you stated that John was the only writer that even used that word and it didn’t mean a person…then you go on to say there is THE Antichrist..it can’t be both….The fact is the personage of The Antichrist is pure mythology and has no basis in fact. The Antichrist is a monster phantom created in the religious carnal mind extrapolated from the scriptures and hobbled together like Frankenstein who will come an terrorize the villagers.

This is my major disagreement with your “presumptions”because they are only presumptions of theology..in other words…they are meaningless and make void the living word of the creator God.You are doing exactly what you insinuated I was doing..reading WAY into the scriptures.If you can’t even get the basic correct how can you get anything else correct.

I am not condemning you nor am I saying you are purposely maliciously deceiving however what you write is not correct.I would be a liar if I said they were correct.You are just creating doctrines of religion making a God in your image/ imagination according to your likeness..that is the nature of mankind to do so because mankind’s nature is religious. It is your character to try and “teach” your doctrines and from what I sense it is from benevolence however that does not make what you are writing and believe any less incorrect .

I am not a troll trying to badger you into my beliefs because the fact is I have no beliefs about a God at all.I am only stating what I know to be true.That’s all I can do.That is all anyone is supposed to do.What a person believes about God is completely incongruous to what the truth is about the creator God.If you knew the scriptures you would know Yahoshua never says he believes in the creator God.He only knows.His most encompassing statement of truth has been twisted into the lies and religion of man.

“And Yahoshua said to some Jews that believed in him.If you continue in my word you will truly be my disciple THEN you will KNOW the truth and THEN the truth will make you free”.

This is diametrically opposed to what Christianity believes and teaches.They think “believing”doctrines of Christianity is what makes them free.This is a foundational statement by Yahoshua yet Christianity does not know it at all.This false doctrine of their belief colors EVERYTHING they do and say.

I am not trying to school you on what I know because I know that is impossible because I wasn’t schooled, I just know it and I know that’s how it works.Man can NEVER know(commune with) the creator God through religious belief methodology because they are diametrical opposed.Even Paul knew this when he stated the carnal mind is at enmity with the creator God.Christians believe he is talking to “heathen” non believers of Christianity when in fact he was speaking of Christianity (and all religion).

Preaching the Good news isn’t about viva-sectioning the bible and creating doctrines of men as you do now and Christianity has done for 2,000 years.It is a proclamation statement of Yahoshua….unfortunately the majority of the response is damage control and destroying religious myths.The gospel “angels” purpose is to destroy the chains of religion that bind mankinds mind not make stronger and longer links.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 06:44 PM
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originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: DISRAELI

He awaits our response. A calling without a response is null. Conscious? Perhaps. Is falling in love a conscious response?


Yes, it is.

Falling in lust, that's a different matter.

Love is a matter of the will. You can fall out of love as easily as you fall in love, it happens all the time.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 06:45 PM
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a reply to: Rex282
I do not intend to get into a wide-ranging discussion over theology in general.
This thread was designed to be specifically about the second half of John ch1 (I believe in taking one piece of the jigsaw at a time).
I would prefer to focus on that topic.

I have threads on Revelation where we can get into the detail of Revelation.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 06:45 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Hi D ...Molinism is the only logical escape from the philosophical debate between God's sovereignty and mans free will .

I got distracted from responding to this. Thank you for that link.
I'm more used to thinking of myself as an Arminian (I'm certainly not a Calvinist).
To be honest, though, I haven't really gone into the philosophical details of how the two can be reconciled.
I've been content with accepting that, as a theological principle, since the Bible appears to call for both.


I am an Arminian also.

Perhaps a lesson on TULIP might clear up confusion for some people?

ETA: I made a thread about it.
edit on 4/25/2015 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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All prophecies are fulfilled. Jesus he has played his role.
The battle now is Gods. Do people believe or not.
Will the believers win out.

be happy you see the light but don't be misled or mislead.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 07:18 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1


I can't deny future prophesy within the text but at the same time I don't think God would have given them information they could not have related to their own time and culture of understanding .

I relate to it quite well, actually.

Locusts, helicopters, for instance, sound of many chariots, many waters, thunders, flashings and lightning, i.e., modern weapons.

City bedecked with precious stones, city lights on the horizon, man made mountains, etc,

ETA: If i read the descriptions from the POV of someone who lived a long time ago, trying to describe these things he is shown, I see the modern world. They could't possibly understand an airplane, a bomb or machine gun.

Compared to war all other endeavors of man shrink to insignificance.
edit on 25-4-2015 by intrptr because: ETA:



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 07:30 PM
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a reply to: Rex282

Symbolism only means to the individual what the individual wants it to.

We are not living in the times in which the Bible was written and as much as we would like to say we know, we simply do have have the benefit of their cultural context.

Just because a symbol means something to you does not mean it is the same for Disraeli, and the opposite is true. What we should do is see if the symbolism carries meaning within the historical and cultural context of the time,whether or not Christianity still follows that earlier symbolism and whether or not that symbolism has meaning for today.

The very first symbolism in the book of Revelation is the menorah. We should then assume the rest of the book will remain Jewish in symbolism.

The first image John has of Jesus is Him standing in the midst of the seven candlesticks. That is the menorah. The middle candle of the menorah is used to light all the other candles, and it is called the shamash, the helper. It is the main light on which all others are then lit.

Jewish imagery.



posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 07:24 AM
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a reply to: intrptr

This is a good lecture with very good questions you have to answer in order to believe one way or the other . True the Bible does allow for us to use our imagination .Many times we ask the question when we find two different accounts of something which one is true .Well sometimes they both can be true and having to confirm and unite the two we start to look at it in a different way .



posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 08:05 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

Thank you for your links in this thread. I try to watch them but have pretty much heard it all before, I been to church a lot and I don't go or listen to their sermons anymore. There is a lock step of theology and its as old as the middle ages.

I don't depend o others to tell me about matters of the spirit anymore, I have my own soul and it resides in the spirit world. I see the world from its perspective, why should I listen to others tell me how to listen to my own self?

Or more, the spirit communes with everyone through the conduit of the soul which everyone has. Only those confused about their inner voice seek the answers outside themselves.

This isn't arrogance, but true humbleness. It is in dependent, not dependent.

ETA: Just like the thread title suggests…

Seeing something is different than realizing it.
edit on 26-4-2015 by intrptr because: ETA:



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