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Truly, truly; You shall see heaven opened

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posted on Apr, 24 2015 @ 09:03 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Beautifully said.

Much like one of my favorite lines which I will misquote. Only those who can accept as little children will enter the Kingdom.




posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 02:42 AM
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a reply to: TonyS
Thank you.
You should check your inbox for personal messages, by the way.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 07:51 AM
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a reply to: intrptr

You raise a good point in that understanding how the ancients though and conveyed that in their language of the day .They were not scientific but did have thought's on phenomena and put that common description into the text .One can imagine reading back in a time not long ago when the earth was described as flat .They were not wrong to describe it this way because there was little thought of it as being a sphere .

One could imagine that if the Northern peoples of the Arctic had written down in text years ago that the cold ,ice, and snow would dominate their stories and cultural understanding at the time . Even the expansion of linguistic lexicons needs to be put into historical context to really drill into what may have been going on at the time .



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 08:15 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1
I don't actually agree with the frequent assumption that Biblical visions were things seen with the physical eye, and consequently open to misunderstanding for that reason.
I suggest that the people experiencing these visions were being shown symbols, visible only to the spiritual eye or mind's eye, so that understanding them is a matter of spelling out the ideas which the symbol is meant to convey.
Thus "ladder" means "going up and down", i.e contact between God "above" and the world "below".
In Revelation, "slain lamb with sword in its mouth" means "crucified Christ armed with the word of God".
And so on.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 08:45 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Hi D ...Molinism is the only logical escape from the philosophical debate between God's sovereignty and mans free will .



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 08:53 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: intrptr
I try to keep it simple in this regard. I don't see why they would need 'ladders' in the spirit world, for instance. And if it didn't appear as a ladder, why call it such? Why deceive about matters of the spirit? If inaccurate or not understanding what was "seen" then why not say "like a ladder" or ladder like?

No, angels don't need ladders.
But humans do need visual images to help them understand what is going on.
The ladder was there in Jacob's vision to help him understand the concept of "angels going up and down".
The angels were depicted as "going up and down" to help him to grasp the idea of God actively working in the world, continuously.

So the verbal act of replacing the visionary ladder with the Son of Man has the effect of identifying the Son of Man as the agent of God's working in the world.
It intends to show that God is working through him, just as the original image showed God as working through the angels.

Hold on there… the narrative is very specific. Its a dream, and a ladder is a ladder is a ladder. How you get symbolism from what only references a ladder is reaching. Symbology refers to actual symbols, not specific objects. But I understand the principle you employ. It confuses the hell out of ordinary people, blocking the search for truth, actually.

Bible Hub



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 08:56 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

But yet we are told that in these visions that there is a real physical presence with interactions coming from the spiritual world of the Elohim .The manifestation's of YHVH and angels in physical bodies (Sodom , Lot ) ...The decision making and dispatching of the divine council to be come gods over the Nations ...God of course choosing Abraham from the Nations to make for Himself a special people ,and manifesting not only with visions ,which were dreams and the such but also with a physical presence .



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:01 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1


You raise a good point in that understanding how the ancients though and conveyed that in their language of the day .They were not scientific but did have thought's on phenomena and put that common description into the text .One can imagine reading back in a time not long ago when the earth was described as flat .They were not wrong to describe it this way because there was little thought of it as being a sphere .


They were also shown things to come. Quite literally and from the spirit realm looking forward in time. That is also specifically related in the narrative. Not physical phenomenon they misunderstood in their time like severe weather , earthquakes and volcanoes for instance… but literally our time and all the fantastic things they couldn't possibly understand or describe from their limited, technical and scientific viewpoint.

Bible Hub



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:04 AM
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a reply to: intrptr
A dream is actually a classic situation for the use of symbols.

Now what did Jacob actually see in his dream?
He saw something travelling up and down between heaven and earth. Namely the angels, carrying our God's orders.
What am I suggesting this symbolises?
That something was travelling up and down between God (heaven) and the world (the earth). Namely the action of God's will.
I really don't see how I'm stretching the symbolism to any degree.
It does help in explaining what Jesus meant when he verbally substituted himself for the ladder.




edit on 25-4-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:07 AM
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A good example of the relationship between the two worlds (physical/spiritual) can be understood in a lecture by Dr.Micheal Heiser . Think Gen.6




posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:13 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
They were also shown things to come... but literally our time and all the fantastic things they couldn't possibly understand or describe from their limited, technical and scientific viewpoint.

That is exactly what I mean by the mistaken assumption that they were seeing things as with physical sight.
Once we grasp that they were being shown symbols with symbolic meanings, then the whole "misunderstood technology" line of explanation becomes quite unnecessary.
Thus the Beast of Revelation was not a futuristic monster, but a composition comprised of a number of symbolic details, and the key to understanding it is to take hold of those details.
John was not being shown the future with physical eyesight. He was being shown a series of symbols which would express the essence of what would happen in the future.
Similarly here, with the ladder.

edit on 25-4-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:17 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


What am I suggesting this symbolizes?

Speaking in "parables" in the real world is different from dreaming.

In dreams we see real objects. In speech we disguise meaning so others can "see".

Theres a difference.

Making dreams or visions into symbology blocks any further discovery as to meaning. Do you consider the narrative of Revelations to be purely symbolic, do you hold to prophecy in that book as opposed to other prophecies about Jesus for instance? Or pass it off as "symbology"?



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:20 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
Do you consider the narrative of Revelations to be purely symbolic, do you hold to prophecy in that book as opposed to other prophecies about Jesus for instance? Or pass it off as "symbology"?

I see it as a symbolic representation of real events.
For example, we should not expect to see four literal horsemen wandering around the earth.
We should not expect to hear literal trumpets marking off the various stages (the trumpets are only there for John's benefit).
I refer you to my Revelation series of threads for a more detailed explanation.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:23 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


Once we grasp that they were being shown symbols with symbolic meanings, then the whole "misunderstood technology" line of explanation becomes quite unnecessary.

To you, maybe. Thats how you block further discourse on the subject. Your mind is made up. Nothing new under the sun. And yet the modern world surrounds you… do you think they wouldn't describe it in the Bible, too?

Also take note that you describe prophecies of Jesus from the old testament as literal foretelling of events, but seem to omit this elsewhere…



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:29 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr

Why on earth should the Bible attempt to describe the modern world? That isn't the Bible's function.
The actual functions of the Bible can be carried out quite adequately without some kind of crystal ball giving physical pictures of the future.


Also take note that you describe prophecies of Jesus from the old testament as literal foretelling of events...

I call your bluff. Show me where I have done this.

edit on 25-4-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:33 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


For example, we should not expect to see four literal horsemen wandering around the earth.

He didn't see "death" riding a horse, either, just a man. Or perhaps you can describe "death" to me so i can better understand a "being" riding a "horse"?


We should not expect to hear literal trumpets marking off the various stages (the trumpets are only there for John's benefit).

Like a trumpet, or sounding like a trumpet. The modern equivalent being a loud speaker, or siren. Even a warning for for storms and bombing raids.

"Sounds like" a trumpet, don't it? How would he otherwise describe a (seemingly from nowhere) voice from a amplifying radio or PA announcement?

Air raid and storm warning klaxons even 'look like' trumpets…

ETA: Modern trumpets...
edit on 25-4-2015 by intrptr because: image search



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:42 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
He didn't see "death" riding a horse, either, just a man. Or perhaps you can describe "death" to me so i can better understand a "being" riding a "horse"?

Exactly. The whole "riding action" is a symbol.Or are you telling me that you really do expect to see a literal horseman?
That would be carrying objection to symbolism to absurd levels.
And presumably a literal seven-headed beast coming out of the sea? But that would be silly.
You have taken on this campaign against "symbolic interpretation" without thinking it through properly.
We must not expect to see or hear anything looking like or sounding like a trumpet.
They are purely markers for John, telling him "This is the next stage in the vision we are sharing with you".

And returning to the main topic, there is no reason why the ladder should not be given the interpretation I offered, and not really any better way than that of explaining what Jesus meant when he offered himself in the ladder's place.
Any different interpretation needs to explain also that statement made by Jesus.
edit on 25-4-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:47 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


I call your bluff. Show me where I have done this.

In your OP on Page 1. You describe foretelling and prophecy about Jesus…


He assured him that Jesus was the one foretold in the law and the prophets.



It’s worth noting, incidentally, that Philip’s calling of Nathanael also echoes one of the Old Testament prophecies;
“In that day, says the Lord of Hosts, every one of you will invite his neighbor under his vine and under his fig-tree”- Zechariah ch3 v10



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:51 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


Exactly. The whole "riding action" is a symbol.Or are you telling me that you really do expect to see a literal horseman?
That would be carrying objection to symbolism to absurd levels.


You're right, the belief that all is symbolic is absurd.



posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:58 AM
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a reply to: intrptr
The main argument of the OP was giving the "ladder vision" a symbolic meaning, and exploring the significance of the way Jesus put himself into the symbolism in place of the ladder.

John doesn't actually say whether the prophecy discussed by Philip and Nathanael was literal or symbolic.

The nub of the question is this; Jesus said that we should see the angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.
It's not possible to explain that statement without resorting to symbolism of some kind.




edit on 25-4-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)




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