Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Realize that money is an idealistic invention. Status, celebrity, consumerism, nationalism, greed, royalty, manifest destiny etc. are mental and idealistic tendencies.

This is an important point many spend their entire lives never realizing. The concept of money is no different than the concept of measurement. If a group of construction workers were told the building project was cancelled due to a lack of funding and therefore must be laid off, nobody questions the absurdity of that. But, if they were told the project was cancelled due to running out of "inches" (another idealistic invention same as money) everybody would look at the foreman as if he was insane.

They put the primacy of an idea over the material. If you've ever read any materialist philosophy, you'd find a love of nature, a love of the material, whereas in all of your spiritual doctrines there is only contempt for it.

I agree; I have found nature, the physical world, and human body in all its glory (mind) to be the best guru. The concept of money and measurement are just two examples that clearly show how subjective non-material ideas dominate the objective material world. Society allows these illusions to dictate their lives...unconsciously.

If you've ever read any materialist philosophy, you'd find a love of nature, a love of the material, whereas in all of your spiritual doctrines there is only contempt for it.

Personally speaking, the spiritual doctrines helps me understand and experience the materialist philosophy even more so. The materialist philosophy also helps me understand the spiritual doctrines even more as well. I personally need both to function. If I cannot apply spiritual doctrines to the material world than it simply get placed in the intellectual ping-pong bin. But if I can...I keep my mouth shut and apply it.

Those who claim to be spiritual or are spiritually orientated that shun the material objective world don't truly understand the spiritual doctrines at all. The William Blake's of the world attempted to reconcile spiritual doctrines with material ones.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

I see this sort of dismissal passed around often enough, conveniently without argument. What existence beyond the material are you speaking about? If there was any sort of "beyond" to talk about and study, that would be enough to win scientific inquiry, but so far everyone who repeats this mantra is unable to articulate anything beyond arbitrary and abstract concepts that haven't been relevant for millennia.

Terribly difficult questions on the whole, but very easy to ask from an armchair. I don't feel competent to answer them, and if I did you would take issue with them anyway, nor do I wish to go off topic, but basically I feel that science has a blind eye when it comes to paranormal events or ideas such as an after-life. And I can see why. Way too much of it is not supported by anything at all. But I have gone from thinking, "It's really too bad science won't take these issues seriously." to thinking, "Science does not take these issues seriously, meh?" I no longer care.

If a scientist comes along and says, "Prove to me what you just said" like you essentially have, my response is, "I can't, mostly because you've rigged the game so that you will take issue with ANYTHING I say, but further, I refuse to play your game any longer. I don't need to. When you die, you will have your proof. It won't be long. Just remember I told you so and you wouldn't listen.

originally posted by: bb23108

Would you link me to a thread about the Video Game Theory?

I just did a search and there's a ton of stuff under "simulated reality." It's not all quite "video game" but more oriented toward "computer simulation." One book that addresses the issue in some depth is The Universe Solved. I think he tries to cover too much ground and he probably should not try to tackle subjects like UFOs where his knowledge is really not all that good, but as a basic overview of the concept it's one of the few book-length treatments out there.

There's also a treasure trove of the idea here with articles and references galore.

Reincarnation is not true, you are appointed to live once then jugement who says there is anything more.

You make a choice and most stick with that same life choice. Is it free will must be.

a reply to: schuyler

I can understand that attitude. Science (using this term loosely) isn’t an ideology, and when people pretend it is, or make it out to be some trump card, it becomes a hinderance to further inquiry. And surely the conclusions of the theoretical sciences never quite turn out the way we want them to, and their frameworks seem to not allow some anomalies. But I don’t think requiring evidence in order to believe a claim is as dangerous as we often make it out to be.

I don’t have to wait to know what happens after death. We have have proof. We bury our dead. We have cadaver farms to witness this process. Every organism meets its end in this way. So no it’s not a matter of needing proof, for we already have plenty. It becomes a matter of why and to what lengths you are willing to go to dismiss these facts about reality, and what fictions you are willing to tell yourself in order to.

Speaking about reincarnation in concrete terms, what do we have to work with in its study? Some stories? Some anecdotes? Some ancient literature? This is all we have to analyze, and as we all know, simply taking someone’s word for it never quite works out the way we want it to. Because of this, the person making the claims becomes the object of inquiry, since there is nothing else to inquire about. This is why phenomenon such as cryptoamnesia comes to light in this sort of study. Claims of reincarnation shows us more about human nature than it does about the universe.

I have read the first three chapters of "I Believe" from this link: lobsangrampa.org...

I have to say that I found it enraging and thoroughly depressing so far, and had to take a break from reading anymore.

A poor man is made to suffer his entire life, tortured basically, through an incredibly bad series of events he had to live through, then told upon his suicide that because he didn't respond well enough to the various forms of torture labeled "lessons" that he would be indoctrinated..er.."healed" and sent back down for more torture..er.."lessons"..

I'm sorry, but those beings seem like they are pretty evil to want anyone to suffer for a 'lesson'..for a 'game'..

I think some levels of pain and suffering are not lessons AT ANY LEVEL. EVER. period.

I am sorry if that is not germane to the conversation, it's just that the afterlife beings that are 'above' evil are the ones I want to most punch in the face when I die myself. I don't want to go to the 'light' or the 'source'..I want to go to the beings that are allowing the suffering and running the show and tell them that enough is enough!!!!! It is time to rescue some people instead of blaming them for their suffering is all, there is far too much victim blaming that goes on in this world. it's beyond depressing to think it continues after it.

Is it so damn wrong to want to believe that somewhere in the vast multiverse ..in the vastness of everything..that there ARE beings who do care and WILL act but just haven't gotten here yet? Or is there just incredible pitilessness and cruelty and lessons all there is..because in my entire life, I have FELT very little LOVE. And to know that the afterlife is just made up of more of it..cruelty and punishment even in an afterlife..more "lessons"..more suffering for all the poor unenlightened bastards...yah, depressing IS the right word for it.

originally posted by: Metallicus
We are here for a glorious purpose...to learn to love each other and ourselves. Clearly it is taking a long time to get it right.

maybe it's time the beings sending us down here just left us the # alone, let us stay in heaven,and came down and did the # themselves, and NO I do not think I choose this life, I KNOW IN MY HEART AND SOUL IT WAS FORCED ON ME.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: schuyler

I don’t have to wait to know what happens after death. We have have proof. We bury our dead. We have cadaver farms to witness this process. Every organism meets its end in this way. So no it’s not a matter of needing proof, for we already have plenty. It becomes a matter of why and to what lengths you are willing to go to dismiss these facts about reality, and what fictions you are willing to tell yourself in order to.

What goes around comes around. You originally said I was dismissive of science. Now you are dismissive of anything that shakes the idea that we are something other than part of the material world. You look at dead bodies and conclude that's all there is because that's all you can see, a classic example of not seeing the forest for the trees. Surely I do not need to invoke the millions of words devoted to this issue by others. The Truth, whatever it is, does not need a conduit to flow through me. There are thousands of books on the subject written by scholars much more knowledgeable than I am.

Basically you are under the impression that you KNOW, by virtue of seeing dead bodies, that that's all there is and this is enough proof for you. I am claiming that you DO NOT KNOW this at all, even a little bit, and that you have taken superficial facts as "proof" when they don't prove anything at all. They are irrelevant facts. I'm telling you what I am telling anyone else who comes on here and insists their version of Reality is true, whether it is Jesus or Science. You do not know, and claiming you do is arrogant. And because this arrogance is your "stop sign" you have nothing really to bring to the discussion. Insisting we go back to your stop sign is simply holding back the discussion. We are further along than that. You've chosen to stay back there and not explore this territory. Please allow those of us who wish to discuss these possibilities the freedom to do so.

I asked you to hold onto the limitations of your thought and essentially revisit it after you're dead. You do not presently accept that possibility, but if I am correct, you will be faced with the uncomfortable realization that your notion of reality while "alive" was quite wrong. You will not be able to dismiss what you know you were told, so it won't be as if you were ignorant of the possibility, but that you intentionally dismissed the idea, and you'll owe me an apology. That's why I ask you to remember this moment for I shall revel in it. If I am wrong, meh? it doesn't matter, does it? Neither one of us will care and you will be unable to relish the thought that you were right as it will remain a moot point. The point, however, is that there is no downside for me, but there is for you, graves notwithstanding.

The subject of this thread at least was reincarnation. The only thing you have brought to the table is that you don't believe it. That is not particularly useful to the discussion.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Speaking about reincarnation in concrete terms, what do we have to work with in its study? Some stories? Some anecdotes? Some ancient literature? This is all we have to analyze

We don't have anything concrete to work with. It can never be proven without a doubt. One can choose to believe or not to believe. I strongly believe in reincarnation, but I will never claim it as a fact since I cannot prove it to another, nor do I have a desire to do so unless I feel like entertaining myself with pissing contest (a form of philosophizing) on social media.

I participated in another thread recently which devolved into personal beliefs since that is all that could be discussed. The topic was reincarnation in the Bible. As if it words written ages ago can prove or disprove such things...

I believe in reincarnation, yet, I agree with everything you have stated.

Claims of reincarnation shows us more about human nature than it does about the universe.

Lol, true...

Many spend their time and energy focusing on the unknown more so than what is known. I'm here in a physical world with a a physical body to experience physicality to its fullest. If I can use spiritual ideas in a way that can be measured and benefit me in the physical world, then I will and have done so.

Believing or not believing in reincarnation can make a difference in a person's life depending how they weigh it. I know some folks who don't believe in reincarnation and are very "hawkish" and desperate in life because to them this life is all they got. For some this leads to immense drive and fulfillment of ambitions and for others it causes ultimate despair due to failed dreams and devastating personal losses. Then there are those who believe in reincarnation and this allows them to relax and not take life so seriously. It can also make one less driven and complacent.

The "idea" of reincarnation makes sense to me, but that does not make it a fact.

originally posted by: schuyler
I just did a search and there's a ton of stuff under "simulated reality." It's not all quite "video game" but more oriented toward "computer simulation."

Thanks! I found some interesting threads. It is interesting to consider them, in part because they do not really vary much from the basic principles of what many spiritual traditions have been telling us about living in an illusory world (maya, samsara, etc.).

Much of what was traditionally considered illusion (the world as perceived by the senses) is being updated with modern language - e.g., virtual reality, electronic images, simulated reality, etc.

Whether this world is a simulated video game or another kind of cyber-world, it can be argued that this simulated reality would still be the same as the world it is duplicating, in the sense that we never experience anything outside of our awareness, regardless of the apparent world we live in.

Every perception, sensation, etc., is an electronic configuration created by the brain, based on what our senses signal the brain with. So we are not actually experiencing an actual object.

We think we are seeing an actual object, but that apparent object we see is only an image of it. In fact, because it takes time for the object's image to be created through these processes, we are not even perceiving what the object necessarily looks by the time we see the image - i.e., we are perceiving a memory of that object.

I like the example of seeing a very distant star - we see an image of it, but by the time the light of that star has actually travelled to our earth, that star has gone through many changes, and may not even exist in reality any more.

So not only are we not directly experiencing the object (only an electronic representation of it), but the object in reality may have already changed from what our newly-formed memory is of it.

In other words, we are experiencing an approximation at best of what is our actual reality, whether it is a technically-generated world or not.

Whether simulated or apparently not simulated, it is still necessary to transcend the illusion that the body-brain-mind is constantly creating via the point-of-view-making machine of attention.

Regardless of what we name the world (simulated, cyber, virtual, maya, samsara) that we think we experience directly, it still requires discovering what transcends all conditions through recognition of the Unconditional non-separate Reality, if we want to transcend the machine of conditionality and its endless patterning.

Also, I now have a better sense of where CaticusMaximus was coming from when he talked about the video game analogy. Heheh, my first thought was, this guy is playing way too many video games! So I justified being very direct with him about my thoughts of his post on the first page. LOL Oh well, live and learn.

Thanks again.

Reincarnation seems like a viscous cycle that acts like a spiritual, meat grinder, since reincarnation usually is said to go hand an hand with Karma.

Like how Christianity likes too present Heaven or Hell as a reward or a consequence for actions done in life, what ever those maybe, would have sent them to ether one in the first place. I'd like to think reincarnation more elaborate then that, and when one looks into the concept of Pre-determinism, it could almost make it seem like a Grandfather paradox.

Thing is, does it fluctuate like Karma? If one has too much of easy of the easy life, or lived a life of sin, could Karma just punch its way into the next life? Like "why God, why, FML all the time, what did I do too you" mumbo jumbo.

That line up looks huge.

All I know is the beings who planned my life are evil, and anyone that thinks that some of the things that happened to me in my life were in any way shape or form deserved in any lifetime are evil too, and if I was reincarnated into this life to suffer to the extent I have, then I will suffer for ETERNITY BELIEVING I NEVER DESERVED IT.

a reply to: N3k9Ni

It *would* be a curse. It would suck to live forever. I want to rest one day.

a reply to: schuyler

It takes a certain amount of arrogance to assert “You do not know”, as if you are 100% certain one does not nor cannot know. I have to wonder how it is you know that one cannot know, as if you've come across some little truth that states this to be the case. You don’t, and such a thought is no more than a crutch for one who cannot argue any further.

If in matters of death the cessation of bodily functions and its decomposition is irrelevant, then my sir, you have nothing else to speak about in these matters. Your facts are not even superficial, let alone deep. It becomes obvious you are fixated on the stories of living people, of what occurs during life spoken by the living, and not what occurs after death. In other words, irrelevant.

Revisit my thoughts once I’m dead? Excuse me but I’ve never heard a more ridiculous statement. I find the dogma that “you’ll find out after death” to be fallacious, as if we’ll have a moment after life to look around and confirm our situation. A typical case of begging the question.

No one cares how many times you assert that one cannot know, and no matter how many times you claim it, does nothing to refute the mountains of evidence that prove the opposite. Is this your stop sign? And no one cares how easily you appeal to the population or some literary authority. Are these your stop signs? If we all stopped at such fallacy, we’d never progress.

If you want me to admit there is a possibility that our personalities or some etheric essence will seep out of our dying heads like steam, to flicker in the wind for a while, only to enter the nearest womb in search of an incubating fetus, I will do no such thing. You are unable to make a case that it is even possible, let alone that it is likely.

“Not seeing the forest for the trees”—what does that even mean anyways? It almost sounds like an argument, but has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I ask because you’ve said it twice in this thread already directed at me and to people like me. Speaking of bringing things to the table, it seems you’ve played this hand one too many times.

And promoting Pascal’s wager no less, a clear sign that credulity and “what ifs” are all you have to work with anymore, holding out for that one hope that despite all the evidence, you could be right. Believe me when I say there is a downside to living—and apparently dying—a lie. But if you wish to tell yourself that I surely cannot know either way, and I will be there in your afterlife on my hands and knees apologizing once we do find out, go right ahead, but know that I am reveling in your grasping for hopes now, while you can only wish to do it later.

Nonetheless, I am speaking about reincarnation when I say it has no evidence outside of the imaginative minds of human beings. All you’ve brought to the table is that you believe in it. I suppose that’s particularly useful to such one-sided discussions.

a reply to: Involutionist

The "idea" of reincarnation makes sense to me, but that does not make it a fact.

That's because you're honest.

Why does it make sense to you, and why do you believe it?

originally posted by: jessme2
All I know is the beings who planned my life are evil, and anyone that thinks that some of the things that happened to me in my life were in any way shape or form deserved in any lifetime are evil too, and if I was reincarnated into this life to suffer to the extent I have, then I will suffer for ETERNITY BELIEVING I NEVER DESERVED IT.

Yeah, this is what I don't get in all these Karma stories:
If someone has to suffer in this life, then at least he should know *why* he has to suffer. He should be notified, or able to remember what happened in the last lifetime, what he has done so evil, that he "deserves" to suffer. That's the minimum expected, so he can understand why things are f*** up for him. So he can work against his evil acts in the past. So he can change. But nada... it's just suffering without knowing why.

originally posted by: jessme2
All I know is the beings who planned my life are evil, and anyone that thinks that some of the things that happened to me in my life were in any way shape or form deserved in any lifetime are evil too, and if I was reincarnated into this life to suffer to the extent I have, then I will suffer for ETERNITY BELIEVING I NEVER DESERVED IT.

Hi. I am sorry you are having such difficulties. Life is a real ordeal and this can require us to understand our actual situation here. We are obviously not alone and independent here. We can notice that our actual reality is that we are in a very great field of relatedness. That is, we are not independent entities, but are completely dependent on our environment.

We tend to presume we are alone, independent, even completely separate from everything, but this is just something we are led to believe about our condition here - but it is actually a false notion.

We are clearly dependent and related to our whole situation here. One may respond with a "So what?" to this statement. But actually, if you simply persist in noticing this truth about all of our situations here, it can grant you some real foundation for further understanding what is really going on here.

You CAN actually discover what is happening here by first letting go of whatever presumptions you have - whether this place is simulated, or evil people put you here, or reincarnation is true or not, etc. Just simply notice what our actual, down-to-earth, reality is.

Isn't it relatedness? Aren't we always in a condition of being related to others and/or things? Aren't our bodies actually structured to relate - our hands, our sight, hearing, touch, etc.?

If you persist in this noticing every day, the reality, that we all are, will somehow reveal itself to you. It does take our consistent noticing of this, and the living on the basis of this fundamental truth of our actual relatedness.

I seem to mention this to people a fair amount, so I recently put in my sig a link to a thread about this, that will give you more details, if you want.

Shortly, I will be out for most of the day, but wanted to write this given your posts. See you later.

originally posted by: anotherdaytoday
Yeah, this is what I don't get in all these Karma stories:
If someone has to suffer in this life, then at least he should know *why* he has to suffer. He should be notified, or able to remember what happened in the last lifetime, what he has done so evil, that he "deserves" to suffer. That's the minimum expected, so he can understand why things are f*** up for him. So he can work against his evil acts in the past. So he can change. But nada... it's just suffering without knowing why.

I hear what you are saying, but the brain-mind is actually structured to keep these past life memories out of the conscious waking mind. If we could actually remember everything from all prior lives, it would require us to be opened up to the Unconscious, the universal psyche or cosmic mind. Such an awakening can occur, but generally requires a tremendous foundation in spiritual practices.

Many people have "leaks" in this brain-mind barrier, that give them glimpses of prior lives, etc., and some people considered clinically insane may have lots of these "leaks". For most of us, if we had no such barrier between the conscious mind and the Unconscious psyche, it would likely be a very maddening event.

This is something one can discover about our psyche and whole body-mind, but in reality, it is not necessary for understanding our actual situation here - that is, at least in my opinion.

I also believe we have had many lifetimes upon the Earth

Not because it is a nice idea to know that the soul is Eternal
Yes I also believe the soul is Eternal

It, my belief is not born of something written in a book though such things do concur with my own thoughts
It is based on my observations of the natural world and my personal experiences

Proof of anything can never be second hand ... we only gain real proof of anything by our own efforts and our personal knowing.

All one can ever do if one wishes to share one's understanding is to offer up one's thoughts but only when another is prepared to listen with an open mind
To do any other and insist on one's own truth/proof is to force one's way over another and is Indoctrination.

You can plant a seed but it is up to another to water that seed by their own effort/choice ... if they so wish