Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse?

a reply to: N3k9Ni

Some relish the thought of re-incarnation, the salve that helps to calm the ‘I’, the ego, the personality, the me. The all encompassing sense of self, that in its arrogance can’t accept the thought of its own annihilation. For ego centered folk, re- incarnation is a faith and a blessing.

The way I see it is Win/Win.

A) Some days I believe in reincarnation and all pressure is released. It is just a ride and there are infinite spiritual careers ahead of me so I do not worry if things don't pan out

B) Some days I entertain the thought there is no such thing as reincarnation; I have only one life; and whether things work out or not does not matter. Why? Because I'm only here once -- f&% it! Why worry?

Again:

Win/Win

originally posted by: bb23108 There is a real process to stepping out of this mechanical re-cycling - but as the op points out, it involves real transcendence, not just some decision to play or not like you do with a video game.

This is a good example of what I was talking about. You don't really know, but you're willing to argue with someone about the possibility he brings up as if you do. The analogy he suggests, that we are avatars in a video game controlled by others, could very well be true. It fits the small amount of information we think we know about the subject, and it's a theory that is worth discussing. It's a theory that has not been proven, but neither has yours. How can you possibly insist that your take on it is The Truth?

You can't. My take on it is that you need to keep an open mind so that you're not quite so disappointed when you finally discover your idea of The Truth is nowhere near what really happens.

originally posted by: schuyler
This is a good example of what I was talking about. You don't really know, but you're willing to argue with someone about the possibility he brings up as if you do. The analogy he suggests, that we are avatars in a video game controlled by others, could very well be true. It fits the small amount of information we think we know about the subject, and it's a theory that is worth discussing. It's a theory that has not been proven, but neither has yours. How can you possibly insist that your take on it is The Truth?

You can't. My take on it is that you need to keep an open mind so that you're not quite so disappointed when you finally discover your idea of The Truth is nowhere near what really happens.

Why do you automatically assume that no one knows what happens after one dies? Or that the means to transcendence are completely unknown?

And why do you also assume that I am not open-minded just because I seriously doubted that someone had control of their birth? If they did, I assume they would have responded.

Do you have such control? Does anyone other than perhaps actual spiritually realized Avatars such as Jesus, Buddha, etc.? If you would like to discuss this, please let's. I am not here to stop the conversation - I would like to encourage it.

My apologies if what I said stopped the conversation.

originally posted by: bb23108


Why do you automatically assume that no one knows what happens after one dies? Or that the means to transcendence are completely unknown?

And why do you also assume that I am not open-minded just because I seriously doubted that someone had control of their birth? If they did, I assume they would have responded.

Because you said this:

Likewise, you don't have any mental control relative to this machine of reincarnation. There are "spiritual" laws involved with it, just like there are laws governing the physics of the Earth and all of us.

There is a real process to stepping out of this mechanical re-cycling - but as the op points out, it involves real transcendence, not just some decision to play or not like you do with a video game.

which would indicate that you disbelieve what he said. You are dictating to him (and to us) that "there are spiritual laws." and that it is "not some decision to play or not like you do with a video game."

In other words, that is The Truth to you, yet you really have no proof one way or another. My reaction is basically to say, "You don't know either."

a statement I stand behind. I didn't assume anything. I just read your words.

originally posted by: bb23108

And that belief is precisely why you are stuck in it. Youve already dismissed the truth as false, because you do not know yourself, nor who you really are.

You are.

Get it?

You would say "I Am."

So you are beyond all reincarnation given you have some insight into non-dualism? Or what? Please elaborate.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
There is one "spiritual law", which is that your will where your spirit is concerned is absolute. And yes, to have your character abide by the rules of this game is also your will.

So you consciously chose coming to Earth? If so, what for?

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
Maybe the existence of the decision only becomes clear to you once youve already transcended the false paradigms that human society holds so dear to its being, such as the objective existence of hierarchical structures, stratified dimensions accessible only to those "worthy" based on arbitrary deeds performed in a game, objective judgement by an external force, and absolute points of reference.

Perhaps reconsidering what constitutes "transcendence" might lead to some... "enlightenment"

You know what transcendence is, people? Transcendence is remembering who you are, and transcending the illusionary paradigm that you are solely your outwardly manifestation; your player character. Your player character is a manifest symbolic representation of the unmanifest spirit; the true you that is eternal and infinite, unbound and unlimited.

And we are all in the process of remembering... all in the in process of transcending. And we all will eventually transcend.

But really it doesnt matter. This is part of the game. Illusion and uncertainty is wound into the fabric of this reality, and it is part of the experience I spoke of prior, and experiencing this, as other parts of this game, is what the game is about.

Its up to all of us individually to decide when weve had enough. For me personally, this is my last character here. Im ready to move on, and there is nothing to stop me or hold me back. No ephemeral thought-form deity will sway me with empty promises or toothless threats; no physical lineage will be there for me to remain attached to; no physical desire will tempt me back.

So for me, at the end of this life... GG no re! You all continue to play as long as you like though

If this is truly your condition, would you talk about the various psycho-physical signs associated with such realization? And if you could also include a very clear description of the death process, and of course, to keep this on topic, reincarnation in detail. Pray tell.

originally posted by: schuyler


which would indicate that you disbelieve what he said. You are dictating to him (and to us) that "there are spiritual laws." and that it is "not some decision to play or not like you do with a video game."

In other words, that is The Truth to you, yet you really have no proof one way or another. My reaction is basically to say, "You don't know either."

a statement I stand behind. I didn't assume anything. I just read your words.

Well if you are looking for scientific proof when you make that statement, then of course you are safe there. You can say that about any discussion beyond the so-called "material" world.

I do draw upon many resources both external and personal acquired over many years, when I made those statements. So you can write them off as you have, and I will be more careful with how I speak here going forward.

In reality, I don't know what even a single thing is. What even the most humble object IS. So yes, ultimately, I plead ignorance. Only this vast mystery is obvious and the Reality in which it all appears, and is a modification of.

originally posted by: bb23108

Well if you are looking for scientific proof when you make that statement, then of course you are safe there. You can say that about any discussion beyond the so-called "material" world.

No, not really. I'm not trying to be a materialist here at all, and with the present state of science, it isn't bringing anything to the table, primarily because science as a whole is presently incapable of admitting to any existence at all beyond the material. Until "science" can acknowledge that, we're not going to get any help there. Those who practice science are averse to these issues, but that doesn't mean science CAN'T tackle them if "they" can find the proper infrastructure. I've had scientists say to me that it is not a matter of their believing or not, just that they see no reason to invoke these subjects we're discussing to explain anything. To me, personally, they can't see the forest for the trees.

If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, you seem to favor a spiritual and "transcendent" view of reality and reincarnation and oppose the "Video Game" theory. I'm not a proponent of the Video Game Theory, but I don't oppose it either. There might be something there and it's worth exploring (in depth in another thread, perhaps.) And, perhaps surprisingly in view of my posts here, I'm more in line with OP's suggestion that reincarnation can be seen as a curse. It's just that I steadfastly refuse to come to that as a conclusion without more facts, something I don't think we'll have until we're there, and I suspect being there will alter our perception of it--drastically.

In other words, it's prudent to keep our options open and not insist on any given explanation.

Well in my opinion, regardless of the experiences and states of the various lives that make up reincarnation, reincarnation itself would always be a blessing if there is such thing as an immortal spirit/soul/consciousness.

After all if there is a part of us that is immortal it would exist for eternity and eternity is a very long time. If you were stuck in one life as one consciousness even if it was a heavenly paradise, how long before you would grow bored of that singular life. A thousand years, ten thousand, hundred thousand, a million. I would wager at some point you would grow bored of it all.

And if that spirit was all knowing all seeing, what would it do to alleviate the boredom? well it might just very well reincarnate, forget everything it knows, take on a whole new life and world filled with new experiences, which from the perspective of having forgotten, all looks new again.

And it probably is the way it really is, a bunch of all knowing, all powerful, eternal beings, forgetting and entering into a multitude of finite lives, not to learn and grow as some think, but simply to alleviate the boredom. A grand universal spiritual virtual reality game to pass the time and fill our existence.

Just my opinion though.

originally posted by: schuyler
No, not really. I'm not trying to be a materialist here at all, and with the present state of science, it isn't bringing anything to the table, primarily because science as a whole is presently incapable of admitting to any existence at all beyond the material. Until "science" can acknowledge that, we're not going to get any help there. Those who practice science are averse to these issues, but that doesn't mean science CAN'T tackle them if "they" can find the proper infrastructure. I've had scientists say to me that it is not a matter of their believing or not, just that they see no reason to invoke these subjects we're discussing to explain anything. To me, personally, they can't see the forest for the trees.

Good to hear and well said.

originally posted by: schuyler
If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, you seem to favor a spiritual and "transcendent" view of reality and reincarnation and oppose the "Video Game" theory. I'm not a proponent of the Video Game Theory, but I don't oppose it either. There might be something there and it's worth exploring (in depth in another thread, perhaps.)

I have only started two threads concerning my views. The most recent one discussed in fair detail how I see our reality - that our body-minds all appear in a condition of relatedness, of utter dependence on the environment, but we tend to assume we are independent, separate entities.

I recognize Reality as indivisible and so no longer feel I have to venture elsewhere, nor to seek either inwardly or outwardly to discover Reality. I found it is futile to try and escape the body-mind in terms of actually realizing the Truth. How could Reality ever be realized through experience, whether high or low?

I see a lot of the new-age interpretations of non-dualism on YouTube that take this ancient truth and try to sell it as a weekend course in insight-enlightenment to glorify one's sense of self. This is just deluded, in my view, as there are no separate selves whatsoever in the One Reality that is prior to (but not separate from) conditions; and to actually fully realize Reality is extremely rare.

That thread discusses the need to surrender to Reality in place and to allow Reality to awaken our heart-based intelligence, our most fundamental self-aware consciousness - to show us how to live rightly, in real communion with the only One who Is, not as we think we would like it to be, based on presuming we are some kind of independent entity (subtle or otherwise).

This grants real freedom in my experience, and the energy of Reality transforms and guides the body-mind as It will through this process. This process is about whole bodily surrender to Reality, nothing else has given me such a direct recognition of Reality.

Would you link me to a thread about the Video Game Theory?

originally posted by: schuyler
And, perhaps surprisingly in view of my posts here, I'm more in line with OP's suggestion that reincarnation can be seen as a curse. It's just that I steadfastly refuse to come to that as a conclusion without more facts, something I don't think we'll have until we're there, and I suspect being there will alter our perception of it--drastically.

Sure, I understand and respect that open disposition. That thread I mentioned also assumes that, as the basis for consideration. I personally have considered this matter long enough to have drawn some conclusions, but none of those conclusions really make any difference to me in terms of what is necessary for real spiritual transcendence, because they are conditional, only experiential, limiting, and have had no direct bearing to me in recognizing the Unconditional Truth.

There are many experiences people report that certainly are more fascinating than what we tend to have here on earth, but they invariablly involve some kind of mental insight and/or ascent to the subtle realms, which is more modifications of Reality, not Unconditional Reality itself.

originally posted by: schuyler
In other words, it's prudent to keep our options open and not insist on any given explanation.

Yes, definitely.
Thank you.

bb23108, all the answers to your questions are in my 2 recent posts on this thread. Ill answer them briefly here, though they are going to reiterations of what Ive already said.

originally posted by: bb23108
So you are beyond all reincarnation given you have some insight into non-dualism? Or what? Please elaborate.

There is no "beyond" or behind reincarnation. Its a choice one can choose to make or not make. If you know yourself truly, you understand on a fundamental level that this is true.

I guess you want "proof"... right? Well I cannot give you any, because "proof" is little more than confirmation of what someone already believes. Its just external validation for uncertain beliefs.

You need to experience yourself for yourself.

If you think I am being evasive and/or vague and not really answering, Im actually being very specific. Its not complicated; there is no convoluted jumping through flaming spiritual hoops for a nebulous, divine government bureaucracy that controls everything, there is no trick, there is no secret thats being hidden.

Sit down, meditate or do whatever, and find the ineffable within you. You CAN find it... its there, its just ignored. And when you do find it, the truth will gradually become self-evident.

Accept or reject that response as you will.

originally posted by: bb23108

So you consciously chose coming to Earth? If so, what for?

Yes, I did, and so did you. Perhaps you forgot your own personal reasons, as the vast majority of us have (thats part of the game), but there was a reason, even if youve forgotten it.

For me personally, dredging back so far is very difficult. Why I think I first came here, is not the reason I have continued to come back, though its related. The reason changes as the game goes on, as it does in many other situations as well. As for what exactly the reasons are, they are irrelevant to this conversation, because nothing I can possibly say would ever convince you unless you had already experienced some degree of rememberance yourself.

originally posted by: bb23108

[1]If this is truly your condition, would you talk about the various psycho-physical signs associated with such realization? [2]And if you could also include a very clear description of the death process, and of course, to keep this on topic, [3]reincarnation in detail. Pray tell.

1: You seem to insinuate that there should be a singular, universal, objective response to the realization of the true self. That would not be correct, and thus answering is going to only give you my personal experience with it, which will, again, undoubtedly not be "proof" to you unless it fits in with what you already think it should be.

First, how someone handles the realization of the true self is purely up to them. They can accept it, reject it, fear it, ignore it, not really care, or care deeply. They might change the way they live their life, or not. It can also come on gradually, or be a very quick thing.

For me, its been gradual over several years, and my perspective of reality has changed dramatically over that time. There has been no physical manifestations of that ongoing realization (its not a one time event, its a perpetual event, that is occurring now to everyone, whether they know it or not). For mental changes, really only perspective, and understanding. There are no special powers associated with knowing thyself, except perhaps a much sought after existential peace, and an acceptance of death as but a doorway not to be feared.

2: It strongly depends on what you believe will happen. If you have no strong belief, itll be like gradually waking up from a sleep. If you do have a strong belief, such as that youll be put through trials and tests for the gods to prove your worth, you will project that and experience it.

3: Its a choice you make.

You are assuming its some hyper detailed process... its really not. It ultimately comes down to your will again. If it is your will to reincarnate, you will. If you have a preference of form, whatever it is, that will be satisfied. If you do not, you can randomly select whatever, if that is your will. You can choose your starting circumstances, or throw caution to the wind and roll the dice and see what you get.

I think what you are looking for here is for me to explain some of the mechanics underlying the "spiritual world", and to give you some insight into the laws and such of such a world, but it doesnt work like that. There are no mechanics, there are no "laws", other than the "law" I already said. The will is absolute, and by and through will all things are done.

There is nothing to explain. There is no underlying mechanical framework to the spiritual world. No cogs, no gears, no belts or sprockets or racks or wires. There isnt even space, or time, or even exotic dimensions that cannot be defined in either spatial or temporal terms.

There is only will and its force, and it is all pervasive, all encompassing. You are will; you are awareness; you are the very essence of existence itself.

Knowing that... what could ever compel the primal force that brings all else into being? Some human-made deified thought-form? Some bizarre idea of some spiritual mechanism that operates under arbitrary rules with no rhyme nor reason that all are subject to?

Maybe you would say but you are not that primal force... but then I would say you dont know yourself.

---

Undoubtedly youre unsatisfied with these answers, because they arnt convoluted and complicated enough. But strip away all the human imposed speculations, religious dogmas, and just plain noise, and the truth really is quite simple.

You are.

Get it?

You would say "I Am."

That is your gateway to knowing yourself.

Do what you will with it. Its your journey.

Between my quoting CaticusMaximus' post and my comments, I hit a post limit for the first time. Plus it was my post # 1000 . Ahhhh...
Anyway, it is long, but I also wanted to consider this fully. Please note, this is based on how I see things, and given I didn't want to keep saying, in my view, throughout this very long post, know that it is implied. Thank you.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
bb23108, all the answers to your questions are in my 2 recent posts on this thread. Ill answer them briefly here, though they are going to reiterations of what Ive already said.

I read those posts again and also this one twice. So thank you for the elaboration.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
There is no "beyond" or behind reincarnation. Its a choice one can choose to make or not make. If you know yourself truly, you understand on a fundamental level that this is true.

If you have a choice then you are saying you have transcended the wheel of birth and death, right? If you choose not to reincarnate, what is happening then?

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
I guess you want "proof"... right? Well I cannot give you any, because "proof" is little more than confirmation of what someone already believes. Its just external validation for uncertain beliefs.

You need to experience yourself for yourself.

No proof is possible because our self-aware consciousness ultimately transcends conditionality. Proof requires conditions. The unconditioanl can only be self-evident.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
If you think I am being evasive and/or vague and not really answering, Im actually being very specific. Its not complicated; there is no convoluted jumping through flaming spiritual hoops for a nebulous, divine government bureaucracy that controls everything, there is no trick, there is no secret thats being hidden.

Sit down, meditate or do whatever, and find the ineffable within you. You CAN find it... its there, its just ignored. And when you do find it, the truth will gradually become self-evident.

Accept or reject that response as you will.

Yes, I agree except I don't find consciousness within. It simply is prior to inner and outer.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
Yes, I did, and so did you. Perhaps you forgot your own personal reasons, as the vast majority of us have (thats part of the game), but there was a reason, even if youve forgotten it.

Again, my experience and understanding of reincarnation is that the choice we have is determined based on the condition of our attention - the root of the ego-I. Wherever attention focuses determines our destiny. If we have transcended all such point-of-view-making that attention constantly does, then one falls into the root of attention, where pure awareness (consciousness-love-bliss) always stands. Until that full transcendence, attention ultimately dictates where we reincarnate to.

One's identification with form is directly tied to one's attention - so attention is the karmic mechanism that must be transcended. Awareness (consciousness) associates with the body-mind through the root mechanism of attention. Attention is what creates the illusion of the separate self sense through its moment to moment activity of creating point-of-view.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
1: You seem to insinuate that there should be a singular, universal, objective response to the realization of the true self. That would not be correct, and thus answering is going to only give you my personal experience with it, which will, again, undoubtedly not be "proof" to you unless it fits in with what you already think it should be.

Conditional reality certainly is diverse and unique, and everyone describes very different responses, though all spiritual experiences can be related to different aspects of the body-mind, whether they are gross, subtle, or causal.

However, Unconditional Reality (Absolute Consciousness-Light-Energy) is unchanging, so realization of this should be consistently described, though is basically undescribeable! Unconditional Reality is the non-separate medium for all conditions. All conditions are a modification of the Unconditional Reality.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
First, how someone handles the realization of the true self is purely up to them. They can accept it, reject it, fear it, ignore it, not really care, or care deeply. They might change the way they live their life, or not. It can also come on gradually, or be a very quick thing.

For me, its been gradual over several years, and my perspective of reality has changed dramatically over that time. There has been no physical manifestations of that ongoing realization (its not a one time event, its a perpetual event, that is occurring now to everyone, whether they know it or not). For mental changes, really only perspective, and understanding. There are no special powers associated with knowing thyself, except perhaps a much sought after existential peace, and an acceptance of death as but a doorway not to be feared.

Okay, so it is mainly a matter of your mind and attention? What about love? Does the heart open in recognizing one's inherent relatedness to all?

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
2: It strongly depends on what you believe will happen. If you have no strong belief, itll be like gradually waking up from a sleep. If you do have a strong belief, such as that youll be put through trials and tests for the gods to prove your worth, you will project that and experience it.

3: Its a choice you make.

Sure belief can color everything. Best not to accept any beliefs until they are self-evident as the Truth.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
You are assuming its some hyper detailed process...

Yes and no. It is very simple in its recognition because awareness is our inherent condition. But the more this is lived, the more there is a real transformation that can occur in which the whole body-mind first realizes it complete dependence and relatedness in this Earth event, and that there really is no entity that is the ego-I. That is simply the mechanism of attention constantly creating point-of-view. There are many details relative to what the body-mind might go through.

(continued in next post - I guess I hit a post limit)

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
its really not. It ultimately comes down to your will again. If it is your will to reincarnate, you will. If you have a preference of form, whatever it is, that will be satisfied. If you do not, you can randomly select whatever, if that is your will. You can choose your starting circumstances, or throw caution to the wind and roll the dice and see what you get.

This may be semantics, but there is no actual "you" doing the choosing. This "will" that you are describing sounds like how I describe focusing one's attention. The mechanism of creating a point-of-view yields the illusory sense of a "you" doing all these things. It is one's identification with attention and being able to guide one's attention through whatever forms it chooses - that creates one's karma or destinies.

So okay, I think, we are on the same page so far. Correct me if you disagree.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
I think what you are looking for here is for me to explain some of the mechanics underlying the "spiritual world", and to give you some insight into the laws and such of such a world, but it doesnt work like that. There are no mechanics, there are no "laws", other than the "law" I already said. The will is absolute, and by and through will all things are done.

There is nothing to explain. There is no underlying mechanical framework to the spiritual world. No cogs, no gears, no belts or sprockets or racks or wires. There isnt even space, or time, or even exotic dimensions that cannot be defined in either spatial or temporal terms.

Here is where we diverge. Just like there are physical laws governing the properties of the earth world, there are spiritual laws govenrning the properties of the subtle world. And this is where the process of reincarnation occurs for beings.

However I am realizing by reading your accounts that your are more involved in the causal sheath in which awareness is still individuated but is recognized to be free of form, both gross and subtle. However, there is still a sense of separate self because it is associated with attention and its remaining habit patterns. You describe this in your next statement:

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
There is only will and its force, and it is all pervasive, all encompassing. You are will; you are awareness; you are the very essence of existence itself.

Yes, this sounds like an experience of the causal realm. It is the experience of awareness at the root point of associating with attention. It can be extremely blissful as well. Is that your experience?

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
Knowing that... what could ever compel the primal force that brings all else into being? Some human-made deified thought-form? Some bizarre idea of some spiritual mechanism that operates under arbitrary rules with no rhyme nor reason that all are subject to?

The root patterns of attention determine this. Until one is free of attention altogether, the Unconditional Reality is not realized. This is what everyone fears to do, and really can't do without the grace of Reality itself. No separate "I" based in the function of attention would or could give itself up. It is why no seeking avails, and why real communion with the Divine Reality is essential for this process to unfold gracefully and transformatively.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
Maybe you would say but you are not that primal force... but then I would say you dont know yourself.

Undoubtedly youre unsatisfied with these answers, because they arnt convoluted and complicated enough. But strip away all the human imposed speculations, religious dogmas, and just plain noise, and the truth really is quite simple.

Not at all - I find this very interesting to consider. Thank you.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
You are.

Get it?

You would say "I Am."

That is your gateway to knowing yourself.

I understand what you are getting at with this, but I leave the "I Am" for the Unconditional Reality to BE. Until there is no one left, not even the root of attention, I trust in simply surrendering my energy and attention to our very Reality beyond all experience. This process is truly in the Divine's hands.

If it's true, it really wouldn't make a difference. You never remember your past life and you wouldn't be the same person. You are the sum of all your experiences. That would make you a different person and incapable of knowing if it was a blessing or curse. I came to terms with my mortality. I get to become one with the earth when brain function ceases. The cycle of life. I'm really okay with that.

a reply to: schuyler

No, not really. I'm not trying to be a materialist here at all, and with the present state of science, it isn't bringing anything to the table, primarily because science as a whole is presently incapable of admitting to any existence at all beyond the material. Until "science" can acknowledge that, we're not going to get any help there. Those who practice science are averse to these issues, but that doesn't mean science CAN'T tackle them if "they" can find the proper infrastructure. I've had scientists say to me that it is not a matter of their believing or not, just that they see no reason to invoke these subjects we're discussing to explain anything. To me, personally, they can't see the forest for the trees.

I see this sort of dismissal passed around often enough, conveniently without argument. What existence beyond the material are you speaking about? If there was any sort of "beyond" to talk about and study, that would be enough to win scientific inquiry, but so far everyone who repeats this mantra is unable to articulate anything beyond arbitrary and abstract concepts that haven't been relevant for millennia.

What phenomena, events, circumstances and experiences beyond the material are you speaking about? Some anecdotal claims? Some ancient ideas? What things exactly need to be tackled, and provided with a proper infrastructure? Show people these things. For until those who keep repeating this anti-materialist mantral bring something to the table to look at, blaming "science" for not being able to find it seems to be a case of misplaced blame. In other words, bring something to the table, anything at all, and humanity will endeavour to explicate it.

Re-incarnation: A Blessing or a Curse? - Its just a fact actually.

There is a lot of empirical evidence of it around if you want to look for it.

Tibetans have strong belief in reincarnation and it has driven their society for thousands of years. It's why they never had a police force or a military and people went out of their way not to hurt anyone or anything. They has a real zero harm belief you might say.

Tibet had a virtually zero murder rate. Tibetans believed that if you took the life of another you had to take that persons karma, both good and bad but because Tibetans believed most peoples bad karma way out numbered their good karma and life on earth was hard enough as it was, they went out of their way not to kill or cause any harm another person or life form.

Tibetans believe that for every good thing we do, we incur good karma and for every bad thing we do we incur bad karma and that we have to make up for all the bad karma we incur, either in this life or some other life.

Tibetans believe that we live thousands of lives but our past lives are wiped at the moment of birth for our own good but it seems that some people still retain some memories hence the fact that some kids can describe and show their parents the house they lived in a recent life.

You might like to consider reading Tuesday Lobsang Rampa and yes, I 've heard all about the debunking a dozen times but I have read all of his books. Each to their own.

a reply to: N3k9Ni

I'd think of it as a curse. Who the heck wants to experience pain over and over in different forms?! lol darn masochists. It doesn't make sense, either. That's why your one life means something--doing it over and over removes the meaning from it and makes no logical sense. Same thing with how some people think everyone will be 'one' in heaven. Uh I'd freaking LEAVE if that was the case because I'm me and you're you and let's keep it that way because baby we were born this way lol

It would be like a living hell, never being able to have a moment of solitude--which I really like. So, yeah, I'm thinking we are who we are and we remain ourselves during what's after this. Maybe not in a body of flesh and blood but, it's not like this is what we really look like deep down anyways

a reply to: Azureblue

There is actually no evidence whatsoever for reincarnation. Empirical or otherwise. There is however evidence for the Akashic Records--which is where the dalai lamas get their info, if you know what I mean. I believe it's better explained as being the work of trickster spirits like djinn and demons or unclean spirits--whatever you want to call them--since they specialize in trickery and deceit and confusion. Reincarnation would SUCK. Bad. There would be nothing good about it. It would be boring and repetitive as heck. And it makes no sense that we would continue cycling through different random forms. How are these forms assigned?

Sounds like the b.s. of 'predestination'--as though some people are born 'better' than others--which is totally false.

If reincarnation were true, then that would 'justify' the abuse people get due to which caste they were born in in places like India. No, people don't always get born into the life that they 'deserve'. That's just silly. No, life's a little bit more unfair than that. Judging others is always bad. And reincarnation justifies judging others. That's a key factor in the whole idea of reincarnation. Just in case you forgot that or something. ]

btw the dalai lama visited my school and spoke to us. he's a pretty cool guy. But that doesn't mean he's right about everything.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: schuyler

What phenomena, events, circumstances and experiences beyond the material are you speaking about? Some anecdotal claims? Some ancient ideas? What things exactly need to be tackled, and provided with a proper infrastructure? Show people these things. For until those who keep repeating this anti-materialist mantral bring something to the table to look at, blaming "science" for not being able to find it seems to be a case of misplaced blame. In other words, bring something to the table, anything at all, and humanity will endeavour to explicate it.

He did post some links to various studies in reincarnation.

Certainly an area of great importance to humankind is the matter of consciousness. The consideration that there is only consciousness, that nothing we ever experience is outside of consciousness, has been in existence far longer than scientific materialism - and there are many testimonials by realizers of this, along with various unrelated ancient traditions mapping non-physical aspects of the body-mind in a very similar manner.

There have also been various studies in Quantum Physics attempting to discover more about consciousness.

Given the importance of this matter, I would think a lot more scientific research would go into this field - even if it may upset the fixed materialistic and body-based presumptions that many of the scientific community have.

Shouldn't scientists be open to whatever is the truth rather than just furthering the materialistic model that the scientific method is founded upon? That model is fine for science, but is this same presumption the right disposition for the scientist, and those who fund research, to be in?

The scientist should simply be open, without bias in any manner. Whatever is the case should be acceptable. Unfortunately, this is not how many are nor how funding is managed.

In fact, this belief in materialism has basically the force of a world religion at this point, and tends to promote only a body-based, consumer-oriented life-style in which there is no tomorrow, or at least nothing after death, so get it now before its too late! This approach is destroying our world, and truly is a sad state of affairs - but it could be rectified.

a reply to: bb23108

Plenty of inquiry has gone into those areas of study, but it becomes apparent that idealists and spiritualists just don't like the conclusions, for it puts their superstitions in doubt.

Realize that money is an idealistic invention. Status, celebrity, consumerism, nationalism, greed, royalty, manifest destiny etc. are mental and idealistic tendencies. None of these are material in any shape or form, nor do they promote the primacy of the material, and such motivations are purely mental. They put the primacy of an idea over the material. If you've ever read any materialist philosophy, you'd find a love of nature, a love of the material, whereas in all of your spiritual doctrines there is only contempt for it. It is no wonder one can pollute his environment when his mind and his own satisfaction comes before it, which is the ultimate teaching of the philosophies I see you promote.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Plenty of inquiry has gone into those areas of study, but it becomes apparent that idealists and spiritualists just don't like the conclusions, for it puts their superstitions in doubt.

Obviously not enough has gone into it - the conclusions still point to real paradoxes when it comes to consciousness.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
If you've ever read any materialist philosophy, you'd find a love of nature, a love of the material, whereas in all of your spiritual doctrines there is only contempt for it. It is no wonder one can pollute his environment when his mind and his own satisfaction comes before it, which is the ultimate teaching of the philosophies I see you promote.

Okay, please back up your words with some facts here, LesMis. Where have I ever said anything about a contempt for nature or the material world? I have never condoned anything like that! I always speak about being in right relationship to our environment and others!

And I thought you understood that post of mine in my signature, and other such posts about right living, relative to whole bodily participation in life. Apparently not.